Defense Skill Tree Discussion

[RVallant]

^I’d suppose it’s for armour-ignoring enemies, but yeah I find the use of Colossus somewhat ‘meh’.

[GOD]

Colossus being a subpar pick compared to other perks goes hand in hand with hitpoints being an inferior stat to level up. As soon as factors that make hitpoints more useful get introduced, Colossus should become more valuable well. Maybe we’ll see that by status-effects getting introduced that have different effects depending on what percentage of health the merc has left. Or maybe something completely different, as long as it differentiates hitpoints from armour in how it acts and why you want to level it, so that they’re not just health-bar 1 and health-bar 2.
The game avoiding hp bloat is something I like and armour should definitely remain the main measuring-stick for how close to death you are, with hitpoints getting hit meaning that you are in big trouble, but hitpoints should be made more relevant as a stat in a way that makes it more unique and useful.

[JavaJavaJava]

Total agreement with GOD ^
I like the rogue-like feel of survivability in Battle Brothers, but Hitpoints are a dump-stat at the moment. They needn’t stay that way; you guys have a good game at the moment, devs, I trust that Hitpoints can be made relevant, so they’re not as fragile as your merc’s naivete.

[ManaSeed]

Alright, keep quiet gaiz. Now let’s give a round of applause to our Star of Defense Perks, F-F-FOOTWORK!!

Footwork ==> uses 4 AP and builds 25 fatigue, allows your character to ignore Zone of Control until his turn in next round. Awesome, isn’t it?

Okay, I made up that skill description. While in reality it merely allows your character to take ONE STEP away from ZoC with 4 AP and 25 fatigue. Dear GOD…. I just can’t make good use of this perk…. O|¯|_

EDIT
Ops…. I made a mistake. This isn’t a defense perk….

[Sekata]

I don’t dislike holdout. It gives double buff on confident status. If there’s a captain on the field with inspiring presence, that’s a strong early fight advantage. I might be missing something though. Hit me.

[ManaSeed]

>> I might be missing something though. Hit me.
Hey pretty boy…. Wanna go to that dark corner over there and have some “private chat”? Then we can take a look at what you are missing~~~ ♡

…..
………..
FXXX !!! MAN!!! What are you thinking!!??? Are you crazy!!!??? Oh… wait. I think I get what you mean. Please wait while I prepare the setup…

Okay! Done!

(hedge knight strong trait 90 melee skill tunic 150 max fatigue perfect focus = 7 greatsword hits) + (adventurous noble fearless trait 100 resolve rally the troops = 3 greatsword hits) = 10 greatsword hits in a round

Are you sure you want me to hit you?

==========================================================
Hold Out is the one of the very few defensive perks that is actually handy. In addition, Nimble has effect on the +10 melee defense provided by Hold Out. So if you have both Hold Out & Nimble, your confidence status gives you +20 melee defense.

If you’re going to learn tier 2 or 3 defensive perks, Hold Out is probably a must-learn perk. In terms of survivability, I think it can completely replace Colossus, if you have to choose between one. Ignoring combat penalties when wavering or breaking gives you more chance to survive than having 25% extra hp.

[ManaSeed]

[Game version 0.4.0.44]

Colossus ==> A lv1 hedge knight has about 65 max hp. If you increase hp every level, you will get about 30 (3×10) max hp. In conjunction with colossus, you’ll reach about 120 max hp. By sacrificing 1/3 stat points and 1 tier one perk point, you get about 50 extra max hp.

Worth it? You probably don’t want to know the damage of enemy weapons.

Would this be better if you spend 1/3 stat points in defense stats, and spent the tier one perk point for other alternatives?

Shield Expert ==> +25% (round down) defense bonus granted by shield, also +25% (round down) defense bonus granted by shieldwall. Now this is something we call a “perk”.

Deflect ==> useless perk top 10. There are two things that cannot be broken. Your faith, and your shield. The faith of a bro is indestructible (you don’t have to bro fist me, it’s common sense). The shield is immortal because enemy rarely attacks it.

Battle Forged ==> the counterpart of Sundering Strikes. Effectively increases your armor value to 125% (by reducing armor dmg taken by 20%).
1 tier one perk point for 25% extra armor value, if you still want something else you must be a greedy bastard.

Dodge ==> 15% of Initiate stat becomes bonus to melee&range defense stat. So we have to talk about Initiative stat before discuss this perk. Initiative is useful but it doesn’t worth any of your stats point because there are far more important stats. This perk is obviously a compensation and encouragement for Initiative. This perk loses its effect once you’re hit, making it disadvantageous in prolonged or tough battles. Enemies have at least 5% chance to hit you, making this perk even less useful.

Hold Out ==> Double the bonus granted by Confident status. You have 5 more % chance to hit and 5 more % chance to dodge. These look like small numbers but it actually create great difference in combat strength. If you have both Nimble and Hold Out, the Confident status increases your melee defense by 20. I can’t say this is an award winning perk, but it is definitely a very solid perk.

Fortified Mind ==> If you have never experienced supernatural incident in real life, you have no excuse to choose this perk. Ghost? Does it worth 1 tier two perk point? Think about it. Well devs said they are going add more ghosts in the game.

Nine Lives ==> “IT’S NOT….. OVER!!! I’m NOT done with you~~~!!!” This should be the manliest and coolest perk in the game, only if it’s not one of the weakest. Man, 1 tier two perk just to take a fatal blow per battle? Also, what has this perk to do with the number “nine”, it’s only once! Mr. Cat finds this insulting and suggests you to change the perk name to Die Hard.

Nimble ==> I don’t need to say anything. Just wear the heaviest armor and be nimble!

Anticipation ==> It’s actually nice, only if it’s tier one perk. I dunno…… a tier two perk only for about 15% chance to dodge a projectile is little cruel, I guess.

Steel brow ==> Another top 10 useless perk. I don’t even feel like explaining.

Rotation ==> One of the reasons why players still bat an eyelash at defense perks. I’ve never tried it but I know it’s good stuff just from reading the skill description.

Indomitable ==> It’s a little too weak for a tier three perk, but too strong for tier two perk. Looking at its effect and duration, it’s likely to be a counterpart of Killing Frenzy, with additional abilities to immune stun, push and grab.

Return Favor ==> “This is the end for you orcs, die!!!”

“Huh, what do you mean you’re not orc?”

“You mean you’re Orc Warrior?”

*after a while*

“Ughh…. my bleeding just won’t stop….”

“I don’t understand this…. tier three perk is not only the ultimate crystallization of all my martial knowledge and proficiency…..”

“Most importantly, It’s…..”

“MY PRIDE!!! My Symbol!!! The reason everyone is looking up to me…” *coughing blood*

“W-W-Why…………. wouldn’t it work?” *sword slips away from the grip*

[Invictus73]

Sky wrote:

Colossus: Nice simple skill. It stacks with backgrounds. For 2h users with farmer or similar it is a very nice saving skill. Having 100hp guys is not a dream anymore. Very very nice in early game, and remains till the very end. Good as is.

Why in the world would you want your 2H damage dealers taking something from the defense tree? You simply don’t have the Perk room, if you want your 2H guy actually dealing damage.

Sky wrote:

Shield Expert: If your sellsword has a shield he desires this skill. Boosts the defense nicely, very useful thru whole game. Maybe a little too useful. Should be tier 2.

Absolutely not. It’s a standard skill in the right place. You are likely overestimating this skill because the rest of the tier is so bad.

Sky wrote:

Battle Forged: Well… Absolutely OP. From start to finish. You know what I mean when you can barely see the damage done to your armor. Archers? Forget about them, just ignore and go on. Probably should be nerfed or at least put into tier 2.

Same comment as above.

Sky wrote:

Dodge: A nice balanced skill. The balance comes from the initiative, the heavier the armor the less initiative. Has its use, can even help create a light fast unit even mid / late game. Balanced.

Disagree. Apparently, it’s counterproductive to go over 90 or so in Melee Defense. Nimble characters can get there easily; so this is worthless for them. In fact, even your conventional shield tank should go over 80 with Inspiring Presence and Shield Wall.
So this Perk doesn’t really help anyone much, except for a purely offensive character perhaps.

Sky wrote:

Hold Out: Useless.

Absolutely disagree.

Sky wrote:

Fortified Mind: Never met anything that had any of the effects this skill supposed to give immunity for.

Lost Souls?

Sky wrote:

Nine Lives: Rarely useful and never triggered it. If when activated you automatically move back, out of zone of control from enemy unit all is good. If you do not disengage, then absolutely useless and needs to have disengaging effect.

A character that rarely gets hit (e.g. Nimble characters or Shieldwallers with Inspiring Presence) might find some use since you might not get hit again for several battles.

Sky wrote:

Nimble: A very specific skill. Combined with skill dodge, your light assault brigand is happy and safe. Unfortunately my light assault did not make it. Maybe I did something wrong. Probably was too cocky with the illusion of his invincibility. Good skill for specific scenario, would be more useful in tier 1 making it a valid choise.

My Nimble characters (I have 4 on my team) has never been hit more than once by melee in a battle. And there are so few ranged units that they are easily manageable. (And failing that, you can pick Anticipation and level up Ranged Defense, since you will overincrease Melee Defense at level up anyways). So yes, you are doing something wrong.
And it would be ridiculous to have this on tier 1, as everyone and their mistresses would get it.

Sky wrote:

Anticipation: An other early game skill in the second tier. Yes the bonus is very nice but with decent armor is simply not needed. If my light assault had this skill he wouldn’t have died from an arrow one shot in between his eyes. Should be in tier 1 to be a valid choise.

Perhaps the first time I will strongly agree with you on this thread.

Sky wrote:

Steel Brow: First choice at mid/late game. No more fluke shots from enemy archers, no more lucky hits from their melee. Immunity to crits is superb. Perhaps should be a tier 3.

LOL, no. It’s better to not get hit than get hit but avoid getting critted. And if this is a tier 3 skill, then maybe I should be the Queen of England.

Sky wrote:

Please do write your thoughts, suggestions, comments, perhaps skill ideas. Together we are strong, together we are the battle brothers. Hehe.

I did, perhaps too honestly; and I doubt you will consider me a “brother” now! ;)

[Invictus73]

Meeky wrote:

Nimble belongs on Tier 2. It’s good for niche builds with the Weapon Master, Adventurous Noble and Sellsword.

Indeed; putting it on tier 1 is sheer madness.

[Invictus73]

JavaJavaJava wrote:

IMO, I might consider taking Colossus if it added flat HP in addition to the % max, and/or increased the Healing rate — there are some heroes that really can use more hitpoints, but it’s tough to take one of your 3 level up boosts in hitpoints. Fatigue, Weapon Proficiency, and Melee Defense trump, it would seem to me.

Or perhaps increase the percentage to something like fifty or even hundred.

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

*wisdom itself*

Mana’s presentation of the Defense Perk tree is FAR more accurate and illuminating than the OP’s. This should have been the lead post of the thread.

[ManaSeed]

>>
Sky: Hold Out is useless.
73: Absolutely disagree.

Sky was referring to game version v0.4.0.22 in the original post while I was referring to v0.4.0.44. He mentioned this in second line of his first paragraph while I mentioned this in first sentence, because I was reminded by him to mention about game version.

He has attached an image at the bottom of his original post. The Hold Out he discussed is very different from the current one.
http://battlebrothersgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/BB_DefenseTree.jpg

I can’t say I’m not impressed by his passion and etiquette as gamer and forum member.

>> Mana’s presentation of the Defense Perk tree is FAR more accurate and illuminating than the OP’s. Also, Mana is far cooler than Sky.
I’m not sure if your first point is right but I think most people can agree to your second point.

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

<
Sky was referring to game version v0.4.0.22 in the original post while I was referring to v0.4.0.44. He mentioned this in second line of his first paragraph while I mentioned this in first sentence, because I was reminded by him to mention about game version.

Ah, ok.

Still, I disagree with most things he says here.

ManaSeed wrote:

>> Mana’s presentation of the Defense Perk tree is FAR more accurate and illuminating than the OP’s. Also, Mana is far cooler than Sky.
I’m not sure if your first point is right but I think most people can agree to your second point.

Nice try. Perhaps “odder,” but who knows about “cooler”? ;)

[Holy.Death]

Why in the world would you want your 2H damage dealers taking something from the defense tree? You simply don’t have the Perk room, if you want your 2H guy actually dealing damage.

Both Battle Forged and Collossus give you more survivability. Since two-handers can’t really effectively dodge it’s wise to have as much armor and life as possible to see them live through combat. Unless your concept is “offense is best defense”. Besides, both perks are at tier 1, so they aren’t very cost-intense. If anything I find Utility tree at tier 1 to be more a waste of skills for two-handers, but they need to spend at least 3 points to unlock Brawny, Weapon Master and Battle Flow. I think the whole concept of a skill tree should be reworked. Make it an actual tree (or trees).

Lost Souls?

Fortified Mind doesn’t protect user against morale checks when allies who don’t have this skill start running. Just saying.

[Invictus73]

Holy.Death wrote:

Both Battle Forged and Collossus give you more survivability. Since two-handers can’t really effectively dodge it’s wise to have as much armor and life as possible to see them live through combat. Unless your concept is “offense is best defense”. Besides, both perks are at tier 1, so they aren’t very cost-intense. If anything I find Utility tree at tier 1 to be more a waste of skills for two-handers, but they need to spend at least 3 points to unlock Brawny, Weapon Master and Battle Flow. I think the whole concept of a skill tree should be reworked. Make it an actual tree (or trees).

A few points: First, the HP gain you will obtain through Colossus is very marginal, and HPs are not all that useful anyways in terms of survivial in this game.

Second, more importantly, I simply do not understand why you would use a 2 hander on a unit not dedicated to DPS. No, I do not mean “offense is best defense.” I mean a non DPS character using a 2 hander will neither DPS well nor be survivable. It simply doesn’t make sense. Without Perfect Focus, you won’t swing a 2 hander more than once anyways in most cases. Even with Battle Flow, the swings won’t increase that much. And with Perfect Focus, you have no room to get into the Defense tree, because you need at least one Fatigue mitigating tier 2 Utility Perk. So explain to me what build are you trying to describe?

Holy.Death wrote:

Fortified Mind doesn’t protect user against morale checks when allies who don’t have this skill start running. Just saying.

In my experience, just a few Fortified Mind tanks can by themselves annihilate Lost Souls.

[Author]

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