Real Value of Ranged Brothers

[Invictus73]

Sky wrote:

Mostly true. I have always 2 archers as a minimum. One of them is the commander-rally man with armor penetration-tohit chance from offense, having sidestep to escape enemy zones, vampires do not scare him at all.

Isn’t it counterproductive to have your Rally bots be archers? You want your Rally bot to do nothing else but Rally, I would think.

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

>> After that they can switch to billhooks or other distance weapons to help out in melee combat. They are less efficient against armored enemies, but with crossbows they can help out a lot, so they stay relevant even in late game.
Why everyone is suggesting my ranged brothers to use melee weapons? Just what stats have you increased for your archers!? щ(ºДºщ)

1. Opposing melees may have closed in on you, and thus you may no longer use bows or crossbows. 2. You may have run out of ammunition.

Ideally, of course, your archers want to shoot, not melee. But don’t underestimate billhooks; they can do a number, and safely (since they are two tile weapons).

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

Not sure if it’s just me. The idea of “expendable recruit” never come across my mind. I only choose the recruit that is likely to become best of the best, until they got bested or replaced by even better recruit.

When you have an end game team, then, no; no one is expendable. But early on, it’s reasonable to have spare parts to finish a quest with good rewards.

[ManaSeed]

>> I initially started with zero ranged units after reading your post (I looked over the ‘net for game advice before I started to play), as well as Duungarm’s excellent Steel Cohort Guide on Steam. Since I do not like ranged units in general whether in TBS or RPG (too fragile mainly and thus requires too much babysitting). After intensive playtesting, however, I have changed my mind and incorporate them in small numbers (two, to be precise).
Hey, hey, don’t blame it on me. Archers are quite cool.

“Whatever reflects in my eyes is seconds to death.
……if they aren’t wearing metallic, bone or muscle armor.”

I will probably read that Steel guide later. (geez you could paste the link to save me some trouble of googling, couldn’t you?)

Mana47: provides low to moderate support, especially to dispatch targets with almost no hp, or light armor targets with immediate/high threats.
73: Now you’ve provided a good beginner’s list of when and why ranged units are useful, but your list is hardly exhaustive. On the one hand, I run quite a few melees with low armor and/or no shield (six, to be exact, two Nimble Swordmaster riposte bots, two Nimble Captains, and two offensive melees who will ideally take out their two handers ASAP), so they will get ripped if they get focus fired. So to protect them, I have to hunt out the enemy archers first.
I thought we are talking about almost the same thing, taking out fragile targets with high threat? I do agree about the non-exhaustive part(you can’t expect anything too much from me ╮(─▽─)╭ 　　). I also agree about elaborate things as detailed as possible. So welcome aboard.

>> Personally, the main reason is to counter ranged units. On the other hand, as I’ve complained elsewhere, hit and run (mostly run) archers are annoying, especially during nights or on bad terrain, so I need my own ranged to deal with them quickly in mop up situations.
I agree. Ranged weapon+Perfect Focus is good way to stop enemy archer from hit and run, but you must have already known this.

>> In addition, massed Perfect Focus archer batteries can be frightening if correctly used, even against heavy Orc formations. Archers with Perfect Focus can easily get four Aimed Shots off per turn with captain support, and if you properly pin your opponents with melee roadblocks (especially Nimble characters that fear no melee and can solo an entire melee army), then you can sit back and eliminate your opponents in a few turns. Even if you bring just two archers like I do, the initial volleys can soften up the enemy to the degree where your heavy melees can frequently one or two shot wounded units.
Melee weapons have far higher damage per fatigue cost. Against orcs, [Melee weapon + Perfect Focus + Battle Flow] can also deal more damage than [Range weapon + Perfect Focus + Battle Flow + Rally the Troops] in a round. It is also safer to deal with orcs by using more melee brothers, as you have better crowd control (with more men to use Zone of Control) and can spread enemy formation thin. Well, the safety part is actually not necessary, you can easily take out 12~15 orcs with 2~3 melee brothers(without Rally), if orc warriors are not overwhelming in numbers. Yes I have Rally brothers, but I don’t use them when farming exp in orc battle because it would waste more time by clicking them.

Ranged weapons is best used against weaken or fragile enemies, especially those with special effect (e.g. necromancer, lost soul) or impending threat (2h, archer). As a gold member of Orc Fitness Centre (you don’t want to know how many lv11 I’ve raised there), it is faster and safer to defeat orcs with melee weapons.

I have a nimble character. Unfortunately, he has Rally too. So he never participated in any fight. He just stood there swinging the flag all day everday. Asking him to tank is also waste of time, I would have killed everyone faster without his tanking.

>> Archers with Perfect Focus can easily get four Aimed Shots
May I ask why do you use aimed shots? Because I find normal shot gives higher aggregated damage(accuracy) per fatigue cost. I never face serious issue of ammo, though I used all arrows most of the time. Incidentally, I didn’t use bow anymore. I also plan to replace the last range brother with hybrid(melee + range) brother.

47: Why everyone is suggesting my ranged brothers to use melee weapons? Just what stats have you increased for your archers!?
73: 1. Opposing melees may have closed in on you, and thus you may no longer use bows or crossbows. 2. You may have run out of ammunition.
Heh, even before I use hybrid brother, I’ve no problem of no.1 or no.2. Because if a player faces such problems, he would find no value in ranged brother and replace them with melee brothers.

>> But don’t underestimate billhooks
Heh, who do you think you’re talking to? Without billhooks, Perfect Focus has only about 50% power. Also, I think billhook has to be my MVP weapon though my favorite weapon is greatsword.

>> When you have an end game team, then, no; no one is expendable. But early on, it’s reasonable to have spare parts to finish a quest with good rewards.
I am not a very wise person, all my friends said the same thing. End game, early game, expendable, profitable………… to be honest I don’t really understand stuff like that.

So I simply fight every battle with everything I’ve got.

Do I look kinda cool?

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

I thought we are talking about almost the same thing, taking out fragile targets with high threat?

Rereading it, you are absolutely right. Forgive me; we read too quickly these days, especially when it comes to what we see online!

ManaSeed wrote:

May I ask why do you use aimed shots? Because I find normal shot gives higher aggregated damage(accuracy) per fatigue cost. I never face serious issue of ammo, though I used all arrows most of the time. Incidentally, I didn’t use bow anymore. I also plan to replace the last range brother with hybrid(melee + range) brother.

The real answer is that I am still a clueless novice! ;)

It’s probably because Quick Shots missed so much when I used them at lower levels to the point where the overall impression that they suck stuck. First impressions are ever important.

ManaSeed wrote:

Heh, who do you think you’re talking to? Without billhooks, Perfect Focus has only about 50% power. Also, I think billhook has to be my MVP weapon though my favorite weapon is greatsword.

LOL, sorry. I thought you were some tough talking dude who thought they were farming implements not intended for serious soldiers like yourself! ;)

Why greatsword over greataxe? In my brief tests, greataxes seem to consistently hit harder.

[ManaSeed]

>> Forgive me; we read too quickly these days, especially when it comes to what we see online!
Awww… you’re so sweet. (❁´◡`❁)

Hehe, okay I will forgi- (❁´◡`❁)

It’s not “we”! It’s just you!! щ(ºДºщ)

>> It’s probably because Quick Shots missed so much when I used them at lower levels to the point where the overall impression that they suck stuck.
Quick Shots should have better value with Fast Adaption. It’s suffering to use ranged weapon at low level. Spear is your best childhood friend.

>> First impressions are ever important.
I don’t think you should talk about 18+ joke here…. but I think Quick Shots sounds bad and gives people the wrong impression.

>> Why greatsword over greataxe? In my brief tests, greataxes seem to consistently hit harder.
Greataxe can kill an orc warrior (with helmet and armor) faster. I’ve jot down a little statistics so I’m sure about this.
But greatsword can kill multiple orc youngs faster with its area attacks.

Also, greatsword should be everyone’s favorite weapon because they look cool. I personally think that’s the most important reason.
You would rather be a fallen hero kneeling on ground than being the strongest shit in the universe.

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

Awww… you’re so sweet. (❁´◡`❁)

Hehe, okay I will forgi- (❁´◡`❁)

You are truly a funny one, albeit strangely effeminate for a guy.

ManaSeed wrote:

Greataxe can kill an orc warrior (with helmet and armor) faster. I’ve jot down a little statistics so I’m sure about this.
But greatsword can kill multiple orc youngs faster with its area attacks.

After decapitating my ranged bro once, my berserkers vowed never to use an AoE when adjacent to another brethren. And since I play safe and tightly clustered, that’s almost all the time.

[Invictus73]

Update:

Okay, after rebuilding a Perfect Focus archer with Battle Flow instead of Brawny, I was able to get out 10 shots the first turn in my very first battle (against Bandits, so easier kills than Orcs). I was wearing Lamellar Harness, so if you go into battle in lingerie like Mana, then perhaps even 11 or 12 is possible? That’s scary DPS. It might be that in practice the Perfect Focus archer could out DPS my “berserker” Perfect Focus melee, mainly because you don’t need your targets adjacent to you in melee range.

This initial test really really made me rethink the value of ranged units. I need to get a good battle where both ranged and melee DPS can both do their thang and compare; melees couldn’t do much here, because it was forest and half of the enemy was ranged and thus far away.

If I can consistently get 7 or 8 shots off in the first round (never mind 10 or more), then I might even add 1 more archer and drop a tank or something.

[Saitorosan]

Folks, ranged guys are badass. Maybe not quite the damage output of melee guys but definitely deadly. I had a “skirmisher” party with medium armed melee guys that used javelins at first and a bunch of archers (5 and 7 respectively), while everyone fell back and softened the enemies up. Not much really got close to being dangerous to them. Just block any big baddies as best you can with your javelineers and pick everyone off with archers. Mix in xbows for armored and bows for light/no armor. I prefer xbows overall, but bows with focus are pretty stupid good against squishy enemies.

[Invictus73]

Hmmm, maybe not. I got a perfect fight to test both comparatively: Orc lair, since Orcs come forward for melee convenience.

In 4 rounds, my best melee guy did 2400 (his weapon broke, and he could’ve taken one more swing but for that break); best archer did only 1200, in spite of the fact that he seemed to attack and kill more.

I am very perplexed. One possibility is: Perhaps archers tend to bypass armor and kill, whereas melee axes destroy everything, flesh and armor and shield? (I assume armor and shield damage show up in the overall final damage tally).

But then maybe this is an unfair test for archers, since Orcs come straight forward and are heavily armored and tough to kill.

Still, I can’t find a better enemy to test comparative DPS.

[Saitorosan]

Bows or xbows? Keep in mind xbows do double the damage bows do to armor, and are much better for orcs in general, with the notable exception of berserkers. Reloading is annoying, but 2 AP to shoot gives you an extra movement to get away and hopefully cut them off so you can reload and fire again.

I don’t think you’ll ever get close to melee dps guys, but they serve a different role. Late game mass archers can tear up most enemy formations pretty effectively.

On another note, a pox on skeletons…

[Invictus73]

Saitorosan wrote:

Late game mass archers can tear up most enemy formations pretty effectively.

Bows; I don’t like x bows. I understand they punch through armor far better, but the severely limited range plus the inability to fire the type of insane barrages with Perfect Focus archer can turned me off from them.

Saitorosan wrote:

Late game mass archers can tear up most enemy formations pretty effectively.

You are probably right but I don’t want to invest more than 2 ranged on a 12 man team. Right now, everyone has a necessary role on my team, and I am not sure I can take anyone out without severely hampering the whole (except maybe one of the four general all purpose Shieldwall guys).

[ManaSeed]

>> But then maybe this is an unfair test for archers, since Orcs come straight forward and are heavily armored and tough to kill.
No test is unfair for any roles, unless that role has been given privilege to skip certain battles.
It’s only unfair if you evaluate a role based on one kind of test.

>>
Invictus: Still, I can’t find a better enemy to test comparative DPS.
Saito: I don’t think you’ll ever get close to melee dps guys, but they serve a different role. Late game mass archers can tear up most enemy formations pretty effectively.
Different role, yes. Tear up enemy formation, no.

LOL. Have you ever seen enemy using special formations or regrouping?

Yes, orc warrior can tear up player’s formation. LOL I can understand your desire to get revenge on orcs for tearing up your formation. But you can’t tear up enemy’s formation because they have none. They will either advance or hold ground (hit & run). But I guess you already knew these so it’s partially joke.

========================================

I’ve said this before in this thread, but I’ll said it again in case someone (e.g. Invictus) want to find out about this.

1) melee weapon has noticeably higher damage per fatigue cost, noticeably higher damage per ammo (usability of weapon). So melee weapon is meant to be the best way to kill enemy.

2) Regardless how high the melee damage is, it might not able to replace Ranged damage, DUE TO THEIR RANGE DIFFERENCE.

3) Not sure if intentional, there are fragile enemy units with special effects (e.g. Necromancer, Lost Souls, Archers). Ranged weapon is best used against them.

4) Ranged support. Did you encounter situations where a brother failed to end an enemy’s life due to poor luck or miscalculation? Ranged weapon has wider coverage and is handy against fragile or weaken enemies, so it can handle this quite well. Oh skeletons please go to hell.

EDIT
5) Terrain advantage(when God of Terrain favors you). E.g. long cliffs that force enemy to detour while you shower them with arrows. This factor is rather minor and unreliable because you have no control over it. Also useless if enemy has necromancer that forces you to go offensive instead of defensive.

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

I’ve said this before in this thread, but I’ll said it again in case someone (e.g. Invictus) want to find out about this.

1) melee weapon has noticeably higher damage per fatigue cost, noticeably higher damage per ammo (usability of weapon). So melee weapon is meant to be the best way to kill enemy.

2) Regardless how high the melee damage is, it might not able to replace Ranged damage, DUE TO THEIR RANGE DIFFERENCE.

3) Not sure if intentional, there are fragile enemy units with special effects (e.g. Necromancer, Lost Souls, Archers). Ranged weapon is best used against them.

4) Ranged support. Did you encounter situations where a brother failed to end an enemy’s life due to poor luck or miscalculation? Ranged weapon has wider coverage and is handy against fragile or weaken enemies, so it can handle this quite well. Oh skeletons please go to hell.

EDIT
5) Terrain advantage(when God of Terrain favors you). E.g. long cliffs that force enemy to detour while you shower them with arrows. This factor is rather minor and unreliable because you have no control over it. Also useless if enemy has necromancer that forces you to go offensive instead of defensive.

This is well put; I agree with all of it.

[Invictus73]

2281 damage in two rounds and 8 kills (really in 1 round, because the guy did nothing in the first round, I believe). That is the power of pure melee DPS spec (I wonder what he could’ve done if he had “Strong” Trait and could take one extra swing and possibly more through the Battle Flow constantly triggering). I don’t think a ranged DPS can even do 1000 in 1 round in the most ideal scenario with improbable RNG luck, muchless over 2000, as this guy apparently did.

Of course, he had a good tactical set up. Start the 2nd round surrounded by partly hurt enemies (the first round swing killed 2 and badly wounded another, and we were off to the races). Still, it’s not like this guy even had such great stats, so he’s not even pushing the full potential of the build.

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