Utility Skill Tree Discussion

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

Here is the situation of my brother.
Closed mail coif + heraldic mail + greatsword = remaining max fatigue 103
103 – 42 (focus cost 40 + take one step forward 2) = 61 = 2h hits x4
Benefit of Battle Flow (assume we can kill an enemy on 4th hit) = 60×0.33 = -20 current fatigue
Benefit of Brawny = [closed mail coif -2 max fatigue penalty] + [heraldic mail -21 max fatigue penalty] = -23 max fatigue penalty
You can kill orc young in merely 2 hits, making Battle Flow provide higher benefit than the previous calculation. Also, the calculation doesn’t include the 5th hit enabled by Battle Flow at all.
If you use Full Force + Heraldic mail, you can kill orc young in only 1 hit, making Battle Flow provide even higher benefit than Brawny.

I thought you use Woven Tunics on all your melees?
I actually thought of switching all my Hedge Knight “workhorses” into Swordmasters. Basically, I thought I’d get more survivality AND DPS this way. In the first place, Swordmasters essentially get a huge Melee Defense advantage over the Hedge Knight that is tantamount to activating a Shieldwall (and Melee Defense is more important than raw HP). In fact, I’d be walking around at 70 Melee Defense or so with just a Shield; and another five or so with Inspiring Presence. This means I am hitting that near untouchable 90 with Shieldwall. So these guys will be unhittable without having to go a pure defense Nimble build. Second, as for offense, since their non Shieldwall defense is so darn high, I can take that 2nd swing instead of activating Shieldwall when surrounded. So I’d have higher DPS. And perhaps with Battle Flow even more DPS?
What do you think?

EDIT:

I reread your post, and you are actually describing Perfect Focus DPS melees, not tanks or hybrids. In that context, yes, I agree Battle Flow is better, since you are almost guaranteed a kill per turn; but I was talking about tank/hybrids who swing 2 handers twice per turn! For them, I think Brawny is still better. And most folks run more tank/hybrid melees than DPS melees.

[Invictus73]

Hmmm, upon second thought:

If I go with Battle Flow instead of Brawny on Swordmaster tank/hybrids, then my Initiative will be soooo low…

Will this matter though? I will have two Nimble, tarpit Swordmasters in pajamas (not quite lingerie), two archers, all units that can act quickly.

[ManaSeed]

>> I thought you use Woven Tunics on all your melees?

Unlike most people, I’m not passionate to share my stories like writing web diary.
(o´･∀･`) But you looked desperately interested so I guess it can’t be helped.

OFF TOPIC
I still have 2 very old brothers not wearing woven tunics and hoods. Both wear closed mail coif, one wear Heraldic Mail and another wear Gambeson.

If you’ve never tried pure DPS(woven tunic) build before, you might not understand the stress. You might not able to imagine how concentrated I am when I command my woven tunic brother with increased melee+ranged+max fatigue, which have no armor and defense stat improvement at all. These are the only 3 melee attackers with absolutely no defense properties, other melee attackers have increased ranged defense(thus they’ve sacrificed ranged skill/weapon). Woven tunic with no defense properties is no joke, so I’m hesitating if I should put more brothers like this into the team.

My team is meant for experiment purpose and still under development(because there’re always people who pop up and provide new info, like one background is better than another…. argghhh I’m angry), rather than the final version of my ideal team. So I’m keeping these 2 oasis brother for the time being. Also, the gambeson and heraldic mail look kinda cool. So not all my attackers look like militia with brown uniform (woven tunic). Having an attacker with heaviest armor can let me see the difference with&without armor, so I might convince myself to put on some armor for all attackers one day.

===============================
>> I actually thought of switching all my Hedge Knight “workhorses” into Swordmasters.
I’ve already done the opposite, in order to squeeze more DPS out of melee brothers.

>> What do you think?
I think it makes thing easier and enable better decision making by SIMPLY compare the difference.

DIFFERENCE between Hedge Knight & Swordmaster (you can ignore the hp and resolve difference because they have minimal impact)
Hedge Knight ==> +20 max fatigue, +10 initiative, +20 hp
Swordmaster ==> +10 melee skill, +10 melee def, +5 resolve

Looking at the difference in value, I think you more or less have an answer in your heart.

>> For them, I think Brawny is still better.
If you agree Battle Flow is better for offense, Brawny can only prevail over Battle Flow with its higher initiative. Higher initiative should help in defense as you can act before situation get worse.

>> If I go with Battle Flow instead of Brawny on Swordmaster tank/hybrids, then my Initiative will be soooo low…

Will this matter though? I will have two Nimble, tarpit Swordmasters in pajamas (not quite lingerie), two archers, all units that can act quickly.

1) Higher offense with delayed action
2) faster action with lower offense

Which do you prefer?

In my case it is faster action with higher offense. Just a little breezy though… achoo!

======================================================
For simplicity purpose, I think it’s better if we exclude ideas such “offense is best defense”, “you don’t have to defend if enemy is dead” in our current discussion. Otherwise we would involve advanced discussions such as “Offense v.s Defense”, “Perfect ratio between Offense & Defense”.

We will simply look at things in terms of your preferred style or your preferred ratio between offense and defense.

[Holy.Death]

I find Brawny to be a great perk if I want to use heavily armored brothers: they really need all the fatigue boost they can get. It combines well with some heavier weapons and perks that increase damage as well.

[ManaSeed]

ManaSeed wrote:

DIFFERENCE between Hedge Knight & Swordmaster (you can ignore the hp and resolve difference because they have minimal impact)
Hedge Knight ==> +20 max fatigue, +10 initiative, +20 hp
Swordmaster ==> +10 melee skill, +10 melee def, +5 resolve

m(_ _)m Sorry, I made a mistake here. Swordmaster has 15 more melee def than Hedge Knight, not 10 more.

Holy.Death wrote:

I find Brawny to be a great perk if I want to use heavily armored brothers: they really need all the fatigue boost they can get. It combines well with some heavier weapons and perks that increase damage as well.

@ Invictus
I totally forgot about this point. I agree. With higher initiative you can act fast when things go wrong, and with higher max fatigue you can use more shieldwall. So Brawny should be better perk than Battle Flow for tanking purpose.

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

DIFFERENCE between Hedge Knight & Swordmaster (you can ignore the hp and resolve difference because they have minimal impact)
Hedge Knight ==> +20 max fatigue, +10 initiative, +20 hp
Swordmaster ==> +10 melee skill, +10 melee def, +5 resolve

Looking at the difference in value, I think you more or less have an answer in your heart.

Keep in mind I have three different melees: Nimble Swordmaster Riposte bots for pure “tarpit,” Hedge Knights for pure two handed DPS, and the conventional Shieldwall tank. I am looking for what I need for the last role. I had hitherto used Hedge Knights, but wouldn’t extra fifteen Melee Defense on Swordmaster be determinative for a Shieldwall guy?

(By the way, Swordmaster has fifteen Melee Defense on Hedge Knight, not ten.)

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

I totally forgot about this point. I agree. With higher initiative you can act fast when things go wrong, and with higher max fatigue you can use more shieldwall. So Brawny should be better perk than Battle Flow for tanking purpose.

And this is why I am a bit leery about using Swordmasters as my tanks, but I might deal with this problem in two ways:
Give them Lamellar Harness and not Heraldic Mail; increase their Initiative, rather than Melee Skill for the last few levels, since 100 plus Melee Skill (which they often end up with) may be an overkill on a tank anyways.

In fact, I might deploy 2 Hedge Knight tanks and 2 Swordmaster tanks and just compare?

[ManaSeed]

>>
Me: m(_ _)m Sorry, I made a mistake here. Swordmaster has 15 more melee def than Hedge Knight, not 10 more.
Invictus: (By the way, Swordmaster has fifteen Melee Defense on Hedge Knight, not ten.)

Can’t tell if you acute or neglectful (* ˚᷄ 艸 ˚᷅ *)

Invictus73 wrote:

I had hitherto used Hedge Knights, but wouldn’t extra fifteen Melee Defense on Swordmaster be determinative for a Shieldwall guy?

It’s absolutely determinative for a pure shieldwall guy. But I believe that’s not what you wanted. You have a specific preferred offense/defense ratio for the new guy, right?

>> In fact, I might deploy 2 Hedge Knight tanks and 2 Swordmaster tanks and just compare?

Nothing is better than comparing 2 things in real situation, if it’s possible (sometimes it’s not possible to try something without deleting/replacing half of your crew ).

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

Can’t tell if you acute or neglectful (* ˚᷄ 艸 ˚᷅ *)

Both: I am a paradox wrapped up in a contradiction inside an ambiguity.

ManaSeed wrote:

It’s absolutely determinative for a pure shieldwall guy. But I believe that’s not what you wanted. You have a specific preferred offense/defense ratio for the new guy, right?

No, these are pure Rotation, Shieldwall tanks. The only melees who DPS for me are the two “berseker” type Hedge Knights.

[Nanoarciere]

imho remove the shield skill and put Footwork (2ap cost) at tier 1, at tier 2 put something like boost ap for some turns “like berseker” and the tree will be balanced

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