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hruzaParticipantUnless you spend points on initiative while leveling, there is no way you will have somebody in heavy armor and weapons with 80 initiative. 50 or 60 more likely. And that will nosedive with few sweeps with the great sword. And spending points on initiative just to get dodge bonus is a very bad idea, cos you get 1 point of defense for about 7 points of initiative. That’s 1 point of defense worth 2 full levels. Point which gets evaporated after few rounds of combat anyway.
hruzaParticipant@hruza
http://quatr.us/romans/architecture/trajanscolumn.htmStay in school
Don’t do drugs
and if you must post meaningless blather, try including something useful.I suggest you to stop with insults, because that’s just show you’re person witch can’t handle adult discussion and have run out of meaningful arguments.
That link you gave is completely useless. There’s no description on a Trajan column saying what column depicts is a testudo. I asked you to provide evidence of such a text and you clearly not capable of.
hruzaParticipantIt’s not going away.
So … what’s the point of this ?What’s not going away?
hruzaParticipantFrom a realistic point of view, when you engage, you are prepared: you are paying attention to your opponent, and so. When you disengage, usually you need to pay attention to other things, so the oponent have an oportunity over you.
What other things you need to pay attention to? Other then ones you need to pay during the fight itself?
If you see any fight-sport (boxing, mma, whatever) you will notice something like this actually happens: when engagins, both cmbatants land their hits, protect themselves and maneuver in safe. If one try to JUST disengage, his opponent gets an oportunity to land a hit or two.
Boxing, mma and other such sports take place in a very confined arenas -for a specific purpose of preventing disengagement. However in real fight where there is no space limit, there really is no way opponent can hit you if you decide to disengage and flee. Only option there is for him is to try to run you down. If he’s faster that is. But unless you do something stupid, like deciding to flee in the middle of his attack, there’s no way he can land a hit on you simply because he doesn’t have a reach and given you have initiated the action, you will also have a lead on him.
There are few specific situations I can think of when above might not be the case, like for example if guy with a knife faces guy with the spear and he managed to close the distance to the knife range. But in that case he basically won the fight, spear posses no danger for him since he is beyond inside effective range of the spear and it’s the spear guy which should think about running away. Or at last increasing the distance again.
In most other usual situation, fighters position themselves just at the edge of the effective strike distance of the opponents weapon (might be fist in a fist fight). Which is what basic stance one tile away from an enemy in the game more or less represents (obviously in very simplified form). Initiating move away in such a position is very safe, unless you trip over or do something incredibly clumsy.
Now I am obviously not talking about situation when two opponents are grappling each other. Then moving away is not an option unless you ungrapple first.
hruzaParticipantI was speaking in the context of bow vs. xbow as the subject of the original post stated, not bow vs. everything else.
“Everything else” includes Crossbow.
There’s no question about it, xbows take more time to fire – period.
Which is on it’s own meaningless parameter in the real combat. What matter is practical rate of fire, not the maximum one.
Your idea that if you fire more arrows/bolts faster than your opponent means you will lose the battle is utter nonsense
Utter nonsense which is taught in basic training in any half decent military force. It even have name: “fire discipline”.
Sorry to tell you this, but compound bows did not exist at that time
Sorry to tell you, but composite bows were already used by Romans in the Classical period in Europe.
“The normal weapon of Roman archers, both infantry and cavalry units, was the composite bow,” source
and if your referring to recurve bows
I am referring to any high power bows, including longbow.
those also did not exist within the European theater during that period.
Mongols came to Europe in 13th. ct. Which is exactly “that period”. Not that Mongols were the first to bring recurve bows to Europe. Recurve bows were used in Europe by Greeks, Romans, Scythians, Sarmathians, Huns, Avars, Magyars, Allans all before Mongols came.
Your explanation makes no sense. Clearly I must be wrong, please illuminate us on the “real” reason the pope tried to ban xbows.
I did. All you need is to read it.
Who said anything about hollyweird?
Your description of testudo matches that of the Hollywood.
Again your wrong, try researching the “Column of Trajan”
Try to show me picture of the text on the Trajan column which says “testudo”. You can’t, because there is none.
Also try to refrain from attempting to insult me, especially with your level of knowledge of the affairs you talk about.
hruzaParticipantThe bow was dominate before the use of heavy armor became commonplace
Bow newer was dominate in the European warfare, unless steppe nomads came invading from the east here and there. Use of longbow during 100 years war was rare exception. One which moreover did not last even till the end of the war itself. “English” (in reality French kings which happened to be at the same time also kings of England) steadily decreased use of longbowmen in their armies till it was negligible.
and you had a faster rate of fire than xbows.
That very questionable claim. Theoretically you indeed can fire bow faster. But that’s meaningless parameter. You almost newer want to fire all your arrows as fast as you can in as short time as possible in real battle. Mostly because just like today, the one to expend his ammo first is the one to loose. Fire rate in the real battle is dictated by ammo (in this case arrows/bolts) supply. Also because goal of archery is not to fire as fast as possible, it’s rather to hit the target.
Xbows inevitably became more powerful
Another misconception. In reality the most powerful crossbows and the most powerful bows were about equal in power (with bows having better performance at range due to characteristics of arrow).
one of the popes tried to ban the use of xbows because they killed heavily armored knights with ease before they could get into melee.
That’s true, but not because xbows could kill heavily armored knights. Knives, clubs, swords, bows, spears could also kill heavily armored knight, yet nobody have banned them.
The advantage of the crossbow over all other weapons wasn’t some unheard of power or penetration, it was the fact that it required almost no training to kill knight with it. You could give it to any peasant in the evening, show him how to load it, what end to point at the enemy and in the morning he could kill your knight.
No other weapon could do that. Melee weapons because weapon itself was not enough, you needed also skill to actually land it on the knight. Given how much training average knight received, average farmer had no chance.
In case of bow you did not need that sort of training, firing bow is simple enough and there is no skill which can make knight dodge arrow. However what you needed to fire the most powerful bows able to pierce heavy armor is sheer physical strength or your arms. It takes years of constant training to build muscle power needed to draw warbows such as ones used during 100 Years War. Untrained person simply can not draw such bows. Skeletons ow bowmen in the shipwreck of English warship Marry Rose actually had bone deformations similar to those of modern professional athletes.
It’s important to understand that early feudal order in Europe rested on the ability of elite -the nobility to maintain monopoly on use of force. Nobles were ones who could afford constant military training (and equipment, but training was actually more important), something which allowed them to dominate other members of the society who could not afford it simply because they had to dedicate most of their time to get enough food for themselves and their families. They could not afford to waste time on military training. Crossbow was disliked because it challenged status quo. It was not some Medieval wonder weapon and it wasn’t significantly more effective then bow. It also did not made crossbowman superior to the knight. But it did allow lowly peasant to challenge knight under certain conditions. That’s why they tried to ban it. And then only against Christians. You could fill infidels with bolts till your heart’s content.
Even earlier, the Romans used a “testudo” or tortoise formation to protect the unit from all sides and above from missiles.
We don’t know what “testudo” used by Romans was. They newer bothered to describe it in their writings. All there is are pure speculations. And what you see in the Hollywood movies is almost certainly wrong. Just like most else you see in the Hollywood movies.
hruzaParticipantYes and no. It’s big part of the difficulty, but there is other one, which is to properly manage your resources. Knowing whom to hire, what to buy and when is something which if you fail to manage properly, can ruin your game as much as a picking up a wrong fight.
Moreover unless the first crisis you get is noble war (which you can ignore), you need to make sure that when greenskins or undead invade, you are ready to face them. It seems beginning of the crisis can be postponed if you develop at the slower pace, but it will eventually kick at about day 100. If you are still running around with most of your mercs being rookies, no good sergeant and raider class gear, you will have very hard time to handle crisis.
hruzaParticipant@Flickering
Dodge is based on Initiative, not Fatigue. Having 2H guy with 130 fatigue won’t help. At last not with base dodge bonus. Higher fatigue will just slow down rate in which initiative drops during combat as you expend fatigue.In my experience, once you equip your mercs with 200+ armors and 3.lv weapons, you end up with initiative somewhere between 50-60. Sometimes even lover. That’s about 7-9 dodge bonus. And only at the start of the battle. Once you start expending fatigue, it goes down. At the end, you can expect to get about 5 bonus defense on average merc. I leave it to you to decide, if that’s worth perk point. In my opinion, there are better perks.
However if you are building merc which is expected to have high initiative, it may be different case. Say nimble duelist with overwhelm.
hruzaParticipantI used to think dodge is great perk when I started to play the game. I used to put it on every brother. However as I gained experience I was forced to reconsider.
Problem with dodge is that it is initiative based and problem with initiative is, that it depends on fatigue. Less fatigue you have, lover your initiative. On general level initiative gets low more armor, shields and weapons you put on, because all these things lower fatigue. In battle fatigue gets expended with everything you do. Even when enemy attacks you.
At the beginning of the game, dodge might seem useful, since your brothers wear little armor, crappy weapons and shields and battles don’t last long. However by the mid game, when you have 100-200 armors, heavier shields and weapons and battles last longer, you get very little from dodge.
Moreover increasing initiative won’t really help, since you need to invest 10 points in to initiative to get single point of defense from it (two if you count both melee and ranged defense).
Therefore the way I see it, dodge is very situational perk which can be used to complement some special builds like light nimble duelists or light nimble archers with lots of fatigue and high initiative. Problem is, game favors armor for protection, and you need very talented merc to make him durable enough with light protection. This mostly means very high melee defense to begin with.
And even with such special build, there are usually better perks to spend your limited quota.
hruzaParticipantSo i really lovet this game, you made orks balanced, and all balanced now, but the new undead legion is so owerpowered its unbeliveable.
I beg to differ. They have low initiative, don’t use any ranged, have extremely low HP, and they have crappy armors and generally subpar weapons (sometimes broken).
So they are undead.. they cant suffer from any effects that you could tactically use agaisnt other enemies i mean no fear, no bleeding, and they doesnt have fatigue penalty, and you cant use arrows on them (dont come with u can destroy their armor bullshit, arrows are useless vs them) so u cant get advantage from ranged attacks.
Destroying their armor with arrows is perfectly good tactics against them. What problem do you have with it? Besides, you can always use throwing axes. So yes, you can get advantage from ranged.
You cant use spear wall taht is really effective against all, but vs legionaries u cant, cuz they got 50% dmg from spear so it is simply not effective.
And aging wrong. Spearwall and Spears work perfectly well against them. Yes, spears do only 50% damage, however that apply only to their HP. Their armor suffers full damage and since their HP is so low, 50% reduction doesn’t matter that much. Moreover 20 bonus to hit from a spear practically overrides their shield defense. Spear is actually pretty good choice against undead in case your brothers don’t have good melee attack stats. Of course, if your brothers have 70/80+ melee attack, there are better weapons to use against undead.
Moreover they are like real living humans, they have the same action points, they can use skills like shieldwall, and fearsome (that is op again, vs late game company too) and etc. So if u fight them they do double line with spears, and shieldwall, so first you must destroy their shields to can score a hit (have u ever really tested these legionaries? if they use shield wall i can score 2-3/10 hit that is ridiculus) and after taht u have destroyed their shields u start hitting ( they got double grip now of course and two hits that sucks too).
Given all ancient dead have shield mastery, destroying their shields is generally bad idea. It just takes too much time and fatigue. Situationaly it might be plausible tactics, but generally you want to avoid it.
Ok u got axes and blunt weapons the finest weapons (fighting axe winged maces) u fight them, but u need heavy armor to survive the first 4 rounds. (dont forget the second lane with high accuracy and dmg spears) After the 4th 5th rounds your men start to be exhausted. so you can hit one that is all, when that comes they just massacre your man because they never got exhausted.
I beg you do something with that, they are not just overpowered enemies they are like gods vs humans and its not normal.Consider taking recover as a perk, it helps against other enemies too.
Bring flails for your first line with shields. Flails ignore shield defense (but not shieldwall). Flails do wonders against undead.
Your main hitting power should however be your second line with polearms or longaxes. Pikes and billhoks have 50% penalty against undead, but just like in case with spears, it apply only to their HP, which is low anyway. The main problem with undead is to crack through their hard shell made of armor and shields to get to their soft low HP pool.
Let your first line with shields fix their line in place, maintain shieldwall as long as you can, or as long as it is tactically necessary, while your second line is concentrating on one or two enemies at the time. Don’t let yourself be distracted by lower attack chances, it takes only few hits to bring them down. Also watch for opportunities, sometimes some of them do 2 attacks and don’t shieldwall. Concentrate on those.
Their pikemen are the real hitting power and are by far more dangerous then legionaries. If enemy brings them to battle, consider sending flanking force made of few 2H experts, supported by few polearms/longaxes. You want to get rid of as many of their pikes as fast as possible. Fact that undead maintain rigid formation helps a lot with flanking.
If they bring honor guards, you may want to have some 2H expert with the 2H hammer. Works extremely well against them. Accidentally it works well also against their pikemen.
Given low initiative of undead, overwhelm perk works well against them. However since they don’t tire while you do, you will eventually loose this advantage in the course of the prolonged fight. With undead, you always want to get maximum from the first few rounds of the combat. You want to dispatch as many of theirs as possible so that you tip balance of the fight to your favor. Concentrate on those who don’t use shields (auxiliaries, pikemen) or who don’t shieldwall in that particular round. Having second line with the pikes as well as few dedicated 2H is essential.
hruzaParticipantThere is one “small” trouble. Level of Veteran has a REALLY huge disadvantages what shouldn’t be… I mean I’ve played on beginner level as normal, had some times troublesome situations but in any case I was able to solve them, but once I’ve choosed Veteran – game become too difficult, even though this is not an Expert… What the hell is going on?
Go back to beginner then, no one is forcing you to play on difficulty which you can’t handle.
The first mission to secure a caravan, the first one, and I was ambushed by Orc Berserker and 4 Orcs Younger. SERIOUSLY!? JUST bought few men, bought some simple weapon, because there are no money for more valuable things and I WAS AMBUSHED BY ORCS!? What the hell? It’s truly too unfair to the players.
Should those orcs ask you for a permission to attack the caravan or what exactly did you expect them to do?
Caravan escort missions are better to be avoided early on, no matter how many skulls they have. They’re just too unpredictable because you can run in to anything roaming around the map.
How I must to clear in 1-star mission a cemetery and find an Idol with 8 people against 10 full armored brigands? Is it joke of creators? Are you kidding with this balance?
You don’t have to do anything. Nobody is forcing you to fight 10 full armored brigands, whatever that means. One of the first things you should learn about this game, especially on higher difficulties is to know when to fight and when not.
Also what’s wrong with chance to hit? 90% chance to hit – but, unbelievable, I’ve missed!
What’s wrong with your math skill instead? 90% is not 100%. Yes, you can still miss.
And in that fight one simple Brigand without any armour and only with a pike, with just one killing blow finished my full armored guy with big shield, also he had full health – is it normal?
Armored with what, leather jacket? I came across many shields in the game, but I did not see anything named “big shield”. Not that it matter if enemy scores hit, because shield lowers chance to hit, not the damage. And full health is what? 43?
You should be more specific and you should also check battle log (how much damage to what part of body, how much armor was hit and how much HP). Pike can do between 60-80 damage, have bonus chance to hit and bonus chance to hit head on top of that. Yes it can one shot kill under right conditions. Even if target wears armor.
Game is good, there is no another point, but this balance is really awful. Beginner – too easy, Veteran – almost unreal to play without instant loadings.
There are plenty of people, including me playing on veteran on ironman.
Normal players who played enough with beginner level should have at least normal feelings in playing Veteran mode. Not easy but also not too difficult. It should be normal.
It’s called Veteran, not Normal for a reason. You seems to be confusing two.
At least to had some possibilities to finish 1-star quests without ambushes of a full armor brigands and a lot of orcs on 1st quest.
One star missions are not full of armor brigands and lot of orcs. At last not at the beginning of the game.
I will repeat what I said already: the first rule of playing this game -on any difficulty, but higher ones especially is know when to fight and when to avoid fighting. If you fail to do that, you will have very hard time. Some quests are not worth finishing and some battles are not worth fighting. And -loosing the battle is not end of the game.
hruzaParticipantIf you can’t face an army of 24 orcs, it’s because man player voted to reduce the number of mercenary to only 10 or 12…
There is no or. 12. That’s number of brothers you can have at the start of the battle. You can have 21 in total. You can recruit 20 and it can increase to 21 with events.
which is a total non sense… I wish we could get as many mercenary as we need… a 24 25 team size would be great in order to face a big army.
There are hardware limits on how many brothers you can have. True, that limit is much higher then 12, but limit no less. Having limit also makes sense because managing too many would simply be tedious. Large armies of orcs are there to give player challenge, especially late game. Increasing limit of your brothers to 25 would require increasing size of orc armies to 100. Every turn in such battle would take forever. Not to mention need for larger battle maps.
21. April 2017 at 00:33 in reply to: survived to day 80 without single man dying, then one battle crushed me #21626hruzaParticipantHow could your archer die in first round? It takes at last 2 turns for orcs to get to your line. Young ones tend to arrive first so they delay contact with warriors usually further. And it would take another turn for warrior to break through your lines to get to your archers.
Did you charge your line forward to get the high ground?
Anyway, engaging 5 orc warriors on day 80 isn’t good idea, unless you’re well equipped, have very good brothers and you are already familiar with orc warriors and what they can do. That means 300 armors, 2H weapons, ideally including few 2H warhamers, couple of billhooks and few nets. And your brothers should have 80+ melee attack and 20+ melee defense with high end perks. At last most of them. That way you could expect to win that fight without loosing somebody. Anything less and it’s up to some luck.
Loosing like this is however part of the game and why it is so much fun. It’s part of the challenge. Most of us got owned when we first encountered orc warriors. Just like when we have encountered other high end enemies. Every enemy in the game uses specific fighting stile and have specific strengths and weaknesses. Nothing can prepare you for such first time encounter.
hruzaParticipantHello,
– It could be good to meet people on the road, people in need for instance… one or two men attacked by brigrand or an army of orcs that we decide to help or not and that would join us afterward. Some of them could be very strong and well equipped and decide to join us as a reward…
I think it could be nice to help villager in need.There are many random encounters which does exactly that. You can also gain recruits for free based on how you react to them and sometimes some random luck.
Hello,
– After fulfilling a lot of contracts, being asked by the king to join his army and fight against orcs or another human enemy of the king would be good as well.
You already can. Just just need to take contracts from one of the noble houses, while you’re on contract, you’re working for king of that faction. You need to fulfill appropriate ambition to unlock them first.
– It would be great if we could have the possibility to fish or hunt animal when are starved on the road with no money. They would appear on the map just like enemies but with a special icon of food. We could resell it in the city as well. I think it would be a very nice idea. Just like cutting wood to either use it or sell it.
You can do that, although it’s kind of random so you can’t hunt or fish on demand. However if you have fisherman, he can trigger event with him going to fish while you’re near body of water. If you have hunter or poacher, they can go hunting while you’re in the woods. Wildman can gather provisions for you in the form of mushrooms or berries. Although there is chance of him poisoning you while doing so. There might be other conditions triggering these events which I am not aware of, like you being low on food supplies.
hruzaParticipantTo add what was already said by others: To fight large number of orc warriors you need two things to begin with:
-Good brothers. Not just 11 level brothers but good 11 level brothers. You need brothers with 80+ attack and 20+ melee defense at last. More the better.
-Really good armor. 200 armor will not do, you need 300 armors. For this you of course need brothers with high stamina, so back to first point.
Once you have that-
Few good shields. Along with tanky brothers with shield mastery and high melee defense (and underdog). You want these to tie up as many of enemy as possible while your polearms and 2H concentrates on one or two at the time. They have to be able to stand 3-5 turns against 2-3 orc warriors without getting serious damage.Don’t bring too many spears. Spears don’t do enough damage for this kind of fight. At most 2 dedicated tanks on the flanks who will help prevent enemy from overwhelming your flanks. Just don’t count on them to hold flanks indefinitely, expect them to just buy you time.
2H warhamers. Having 2 good brothers with 2H warhamers gang on the single orc warrior will wreak his armor in just one turn, leaving him open to polearms and axes. While 1H hammers looks good on paper against orc warriors, I did not found them to be very useful in reality. Their base damage is just too insufficient to deal with orc armor.
Ranged units are useful to thin berserks and young orcs before they reach your line, but are almost useless against warriors. If you bring ranged in to the battle, they should be hybrids which can switch to polearms and long axes once orc warriors get close.
Some useful perks to have are:
Overwhelm -especially on the 1H tanks. Orc warriors have low initiative and overwhelm works well to lower their chance to inflict damage. This perk also work well against undead, they too tend to have low initiative (you have to act before enemy you’re attacking in the current turn for overwhelm to work).
Fearsome -orcs doesn’t have high resolve and making them panic is one of the easiest ways to fight. Unfortunately this perk doesn’t work at all against undead so think before taking it.
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