Topic: A Question For Current Players

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  • #6497
    Avatar photoZinistar

    I often find myself saving and reloading, especially since the launch of the dreaded goblins, I avoid them like the plague. I often attempt a hard fight 3-4 times or drop the mission after save scrumming.
    I am an ironman mode player at heart and I plan to use it once it is released, but sometimes I feel the losses are so bad that (in ironman mode) there would be no way to continue without restarting.
    My question is, how do you come back from crushing losses? Also what was the worst loss you have suffered and decided to continue playing. Were you successful after?

    Avatar photoRusBear

    in a recent patch even battle with a weak opponent can lead to losses in the unit. Goblin can kill your knight 2 strikes by dagger, Random and Archer bandits with a crossbow can do it in one shot. Reeve goblins will do it for one shot accurately. This is the concept of the game – random and suffering, suffering and random.

    Avatar photomrbunnyban

    Okay, rather than tell you, how about I share a video series with you? The devs have a let’s play video where they fight off goblins at level one, then subsequently take undue losses from young orcs and then have to struggle to recover. Sounds good?

    Let’s Play Battle Brothers – Episode 1 (Goblin Update)

    Avatar photoSarissofoi

    Nice to meet you.
    Save scumming is almost like addiction. try once and then next time have no reasons to not do it.
    Especially in this game where(in current state) save scumming is much more rewarding.
    #Enemies are generated on fight. That mean when you reload from autosave you face new generic set of enemies. There still will be the same type like 12 Raiders but they weapon and armours(dunno about skill-sets) are randomly generated. This make trivial to farm weapons or armors or reduce increase profit/risk from the fight.
    #Even worse is enemy bosses and unique weapons are generated in the same way. So you get to fight Bandit leader who has only few mooks? It easy to reload until he have some unique swords and shields or heavy armour.
    ### The only solution for this(I think) is for enemy units to be permanently generated on spawn. So Bandit Thug Bob when he spawn in enemy camp he get permanent stats, skills and equipment then he can be level up into higher tier versions(or better armed and skilled Thug). The same goes for bosses and unique weapons. Having it permanent would eliminate most of the temptation for the save scumming(in the case of farming unique stuff)
    #The same situation happen with the terrain. It is randomly generated on fight. So if you don’t like terrain it easy to roll for another. This can be great pain or great advantage.
    ### The only way to prevent exploiting this would be generate whole world(all tiles) on the start. So when you fight enemy on this tile you fight him always on the same set.
    This sort of world generation would be long and saves would be probably gigantic(unless save for world tiles would be separate from but connected to current company and world situation).

    #Similar situation is with recruit able mercenaries in cities and settlements. They are generated on first visit in settlement so if player saves before visiting he can easily roll for another set of mercenaries.
    ###Proposed solution is to generate them on start and then make them move and new appear in process separated from player action.
    #Another problem with mercenaries is that there is no clear indication about their stats and traits. Some trait are big advantage/disadvantage and people can abuse this system to roll perfect mercenaries. This is a real problem especially when player have a full rooster and look for better replacements.
    ###Proposed solutions are few.
    First is to make recruits checkable for some fee(like 10% of their initial cost) so player can pay to check mercenary stats(buy him so alcohol and talk a little or pay him to show off his skills).
    Other is to make some sort indicators how skilled observed mercenary is. Its not a background stats but observed mercenary stats. Not mentioning his average stats or non visible traits but give few indications about him. Something like that:
    Strong – High fatigue
    Healthy – High HP
    Skilled combatant – High Melee Skill
    Sickly – low HP
    Weak – Low fatigue
    No combat experience – low Melee Skill
    Some traits should be mentioned like Fat or Short as they are clearly visible. They should affect initial price and daily cost -its commons sense that skilled mercenary will demand more than unskilled sickly or maimed one. Other shouldn’t – I think they should stay hidden and be discovered after few levels gained or some time in company spent – especially mental ones like Irrational or Optimism. The same goes for nasty addictions or sickness that are not clearly visible. Of course some addictions can be spotted. Other can be ambiguous like Courageous indicator that can transform into Fearless or Cocky.

    #There is also one thing worth to mention. Stats grow on level up. I really think that most if not all stats should grow little(randomly) on level up. It could be done in a way that all rolls all done when character is generated and can be save scummed. It would be a hidden potential of character. There still should be option to increase stats by player but in addition to this hidden potential option. It can also simulate not only hidden talents but also excessive training – some backgrounds can have some additional chance for grow on few early level ups.
    Example: Farmhand Joe level up to Level 2 and get bonus stats grow to Resolve +2 and Melee Skills +1(Military training) and Fatigue +1 and HP +2(his Hidden Potential). It could be affected by his background, traits and random roll. Player has still three skills to increase by fixed amount.
    This would make grow little unpredicted and allow weaker background grow into strength. Levelling up low cost mercenaries could be much more rewarded if there is some chance for this Farmhand Joe to have real talent for the sword.

    There are also two other things to mention.
    ^One is to lack of reliable withdraw option for a Ironman players. It should be nice to run from the fight(even before it started) at cost of some lost supplies and items or wounded brothers and lost reputation(not implemented yet).
    ^Second is lack of safe places when player can hide from pursuing enemy and weakness of militia forces.

    About your question.
    First choose your battle.
    Secondly beginning is always the hardest.
    Currently I start new deadly Ironman campaign. By choosing when to fight my company is still alive.
    2 companions are dead and I am rather short on cash (only4,5K gold). Company is all low upkeep. Only one retired soldier and swordmaster, the rest are scrubs. Its 29 day.

    Avatar photoZinistar

    Saris I think you completely missed the question all together. I did not pose the question so you cold re-post an could suggestion. AS far as having 2 guys dead and 4.5k gold. Im not sure how this relates to a the question at all. I did not ask what do I do to said losses and I certainly did not ask for a BOOK on game-play.
    I appreciate those who did come close to the topic.
    MY QUESTION is, how do you come back from crushing losses? Also what was the worst loss you have suffered and decided to continue playing. Were you successful after?
    Being that losses are inevitable. Weather luck had a hand or not. How do you bounce back when you lose nearly everyone. I myself have not tried it because I usually start over or reload, but getting ready for Iron man reloading won’t be an option.
    I may be doing it to myself, but I start on deadly. My question may actually be for the devs. Are there bottom of the barrel missions to scrape back from nothing?

    Avatar photoSekata

    Edit: To your actual question :How to recover from crushing losses

    This is a management question, and all I an do is tell you what my experience of the game is. This is not the only way to recover, and I’m sure there are other methods that other players can share. Here is what I suggest.

    Do your best in the beginning to create an insurance pool of cash. Save money from contracts up to a cap that you decide upon in the event of a long gap in pay or the loss of many units. Early game, run fairly easy missions that will allow you to save up money with relatively little risk. When you reach your target amount of cash, do not under any circumstance, allow your gold to go below that number. As your mercenary band becomes more developed and more expensive to maintain, raise the cap. Always keep an insurance pool of cash on hand based off of the current performance and equipment of the mercenaries you’ve got hired. The cap also allows you long periods of time to take on longer quests that have a more nebulous payday. Only treat the money that you have in excess of that number as disposable income. In this way, the hardest part of the game becomes reaching and maintaining that cap. Hope this helps.

    I’ve lost up to four out of seven mercenaries and kept playing. Anything more and I would have reloaded. It is possible to be successful after heavy losses with the proper amount of cash on hand. Money fixes everything in Battle Brothers. The best cure to an empty roster is a full wallet.

    Bottom of the barrel missions are delivery ones. You have to be VERY careful on the overhead map for these though, as I’m pretty sure the missions trigger ambush spawns on the route to destination. I encourage finding an off road delivery route to avoid the worst of potential ambushes.

    ++Info posted BEFORE question clarification++

    Don’t feel bad about save-scumming. I know this isn’t a popular opinion, but I’ll stick to it, and here’s why.

    1. Firstly and MOST importantly, this is a game and only serves its purpose as one if the player is enjoying him/herself. I understand that there is an elitist current in gaming culture that wants you to play a certain way because “I can do it, why can’t you”, but the people that support this view didn’t buy your copy for you. You bought the game. As long as you aren’t doing something illegal, enjoy your copy of it. If that means avoiding high blood pressure by reloading the game after a bad shake, then reload away.

    2. The game is in alpha. Some things are very rough around the edges, like the rating system for enemies on the map. It is very difficult to judge good fights for new players, as an “even” band of bandits is nowhere nearly as dangerous as an “even” band of orcs. There is no official user manual or guide, so unless you’ve spent considerable time on the forums or watching the dev lets plays (which all new players are not going to do) you have no idea why fighting that “even” group of goblin ambushers is a death sentence for your fresh faced band of mercenaries. There are also a few bugs and inconsistencies that put the player at a disadvantage, and It’s doubtful that these things will make it into the new build, but they affect current user experience. If you want to feel terrible for save-scumming, feel terrible on full version release when all pieces are in their proper place. During alpha, have fun, poke at things, experiment, try and break systems to report bugs to the devs, but again for the love of God ENJOY YOURSELF.

    On the matter of this game being about random and suffering, i’ve got to respectfully disagree. Battle Brothers will not (and should not) unduly punish you for doing everything correctly. If you’re starting a campaign and you see a caravan quest paying 1415 gold, chances are it will get your company killed with the number of ambushes, don’t take it. If night time is on its way and you’ve got to travel through a thick patch of forest, bunker down at a nearby tower and wait for day because any group of werewolves get a movement buff during night time, and early game that means death for your squad. In my experience failure in this game comes from gaps in knowledge or carelessness. I’ve died most when taking my eyes off of the overhead map and walking into an ambush, or failing to prioritize crossbows, axe units, and other dangerous targets. Sure, there is an element of randomness in the hit chances and game design. Events can affect the trajectory of your play, and a bad roll can crit and kill your best unit, but the player is rewarded for careful game play that stacks all odds in his/her favor. The game is at most about risk management, but it is not a gambling simulator the way some games are, and it is not all random.

    Avatar photoRusBear

    I don’t even want to argue on this topic is pointless everyone will have their opinion on the Internet and even useless to argue and the topic was not about that. But if three consecutive hits Archer with a chance 5, 5, 7 % and 6 misses in a row on the enemy standing on the low level with the chances more than 60% – if it is not random then what are we talking about?
    starting phase of the game it is 50% random- even if you do all right.
    regarding the main topic of discussion – I think that the game has every opportunity to recover from the devastating damage I’ve done it myself and seen a lot of streams serious players who also did not give up after losing half the squad from ‘weak’ goblins. But I also agree that if you bought the game and you want to reboot and not start again – you have every right to do it :)

    Avatar photoSekata

    That’s a fair observation. Sometimes the player will get screwed. What I said was that the player is rewarded for carefully stacking the odds in his or her favor. There is randomness involved in the game design, and it can lead to losses. However, that randomness is secondary to careful planning on part of the player, and that planning is meant to shuffle the deck to favor the player with better equipment, choice of engagement terrain, etc.

    I’m not saying randomness doesn’t exist as an important factor. I am saying that I don’t believe that randomness is the only thing that matters in battle brothers, and random events can be future proofed by careful consideration. A group of bandits with many marksmen can be engaged at night to diminish the effectiveness of crossbow units, and the same with goblin archers. The player can train units to have indomitable as a clear level goal to avoid being pushed around by orc warriors. The player can trade between shields to better account for ranged vs melee oriented enemies. There’s a lot the player can do to influence the dice roll. That’s the reason I say battle brothers is about risk management, as opposed to being a gambling simulator where virtually everything is completely out of the player’s control.

    Full disclosure, I am not a 1337 player. I save scum, I do it shamelessly, and will until the full release hits. Here’s the thing though. In just about every instance where I take serious losses, and look back honestly, there was something I could have done to avoid the worst of the losses.

    Fighting 22 skeletons with nobody on my side using cleavers and a necromancer far in the back lines. I might have lost a few brothers, but the losses are much worse when I don’t have an item to permanently put down an enemy.

    Fighting a group of goblin ambushers in daylight with no wardogs. So much bad here, I don’t even know where to start.

    Forgetting to replace the shield or helmet for a unit that lost one or the other in the previous battle. He’s dead jim.

    Going up against raiders and not equipping the flails or handaxes to remove their advantages and press my own.

    Letting my heavy get surrounded on all sides, when it was obvious that I was placing him within easy movement range of several units.

    Certainly, the game can be unforgiving and some losses are unavoidable. If I had to throw a(n) (arbitrary) number on it, i’d say 30% of losses during my gameplay experience have been things I couldn’t have prepared for. That remaining 70% is absolutely my fault.

    Avatar photoZinistar

    Sekata, I feel we are kindred spirits, bc I often make the same mistakes, then I “justify” the save scrumming.

    Avatar photoSekata

    Sekata, I feel we are kindred spirits, bc I often make the same mistakes, then I “justify” the save scrumming.

    Lol. I won’t make any bones about it. I don’t even think it’s something that requires justification. There’s no council that tells you what you can and can’t do with a game that you’ve purchased. It’s your game to do with as you please if there’s no online component that negatively affects someone else’s experience. If you want to play iron man mode, it should be because you personally want to overcome a challenge, and should have nothing to do with the opinions of people online. When people call you out for save scumming, its usually in the form of self-aggrandizement or bragging like “I pulled X off, I’m great and you aren’t”. These critiques are meant only to make the poster feel good about him/herself at your expense. That shouldn’t be the reason for playing a game through on iron man mode.

    In the current implementation of BB, the only thing keeping you straight on an iron man play through is your own honor not to load up a save. If you make it a personal goal to “succeed” in such a play through, you are accountable only to yourself, and should be punished with that nagging lack of overall satisfaction for loading up a save. It all comes back to what you want to accomplish.

    At the moment I want to test out silly builds, and see what is most effective against different enemy unit types. That doesn’t mean that I load up whenever I lose a unit, I’ve lost quite a few guys i’m sad about. What it does mean is that I don’t care how bad a community wants me to feel about playing my game. I am the scummiest, and offer apologies to no one.

    Avatar photoZinistar

    I am indeed one of those people who wants a challenge, I enjoy games more that way. Hence my want for an Ironman mode. I am only justifying the use of reloading to curb my disappointment with having to do so. Everyone else can play it their own way :).

    I just know that only deadly mode, the death of few of one key merc seems devastating, so I wanted to see what others have done to overcome that situation. Having money saved up seems like a good solution so far.

    Avatar photoSekata

    I will add, it also helps to have a well stocked armory. X amount of shields on hand at any given point, X amount of chain mail suits, helmets, etc. You essentially want to be able to fully equip any new hires without having to come out of pocket to do so. In deadly, where resources are scarce, it’s even more important that early game cash goes to stocking up on relatively cheap items from the castle. Of course, gold too is scarce, so building up will take a long time and even longer if you find yourself on the business end of an orc cleaver. Essentially I suggest both cash insurance and equipment insurance. It may well be one of those things that you were already doing, but it would be lazy of me to omit the idea, so I’ll post it just in case.

    Avatar photoRusBear

    I, for example, have generally 2 different companies. first special for the experience of playing and testing of patches, there I try different tactics, different line-up the team of mercenaries and possibly looking for errors and check the feedback of the game on the possible actions of the player. in the end – it’s early access – you need as much information to give to developers. In this company I was with a clear conscience Loading sometimes especially one fight a few times – even if it won without loss – especially for the test. The second even called “Real men with steel balls” – no saves, the maximum complexity. so to speak for the Challenge and receive a different experience from the game witch you never get better if the losing fighter will always loaded and run, or replay.

    Avatar photoSekata

    I, for example, have generally 2 different companies. first special for the experience of playing and testing of patches, there I try different tactics, different line-up the team of mercenaries and possibly looking for errors and check the feedback of the game on the possible actions of the player. in the end – it’s early access – you need as much information to give to developers. In this company I was with a clear conscience Loading sometimes especially one fight a few times – even if it won without loss – especially for the test. The second even called “Real men with steel balls” – no saves, the maximum complexity. so to speak for the Challenge and receive a different experience from the game witch you never get better if the losing fighter will always loaded and run, or replay.

    Lol. I love that company name. Seems like a good way to go about playing too. A test file, and a hardcore file.

    Avatar photoSarissofoi

    Farm bandits and undead.
    *Farm low tier undead
    Zombies can drop light chainmails plus nice helmets and are easy to deal with. Just kill Ghouls first then non armoured zombies, then gang on with a daggers or scramaxes on one you want to drop armour. You can tank zombies easily with high ground and a shield. if you have at last one or two experienced soldiers.
    *Hunt down bandits.
    Thugs are easiest to kill and you can level up on them. Raiders drop chainmails and good weapons. They are also good source of helmets.
    Marksman drop Xbows.
    Bandit leaders are relatively easy to kill and can drop Unique weapons and shields and can have heavy armour.
    *If short on supplies attack enemy Hunters or if strong enough enemy raiders that come back from raiding.
    *Run deliveries. Its easy cash for small company with low upkeep dudes. Also small company move faster on strategic map so you can outrun enemy.
    *Lure small Werefolk Packs near villages then take Kill pack Quest from them. You can even run to village and force militia to help you.
    *Have reserves in cash. Not too much is needed. Cheap backgrounds don’t need to much cash. Much important is to have weapons and armours for them but hopefully you can collect stuff from your dead soldiers(not if you run from battle).
    *Have stocked spare weapons and shields. Spear is preferred and orc leather shields are nice too against low level enemies.
    *Have spare armour. Chainmails or some leather armour at last.
    *Recruit militiamen, deserters and retired soldiers. They decent stats and are pretty cheap. Retired soldiers can be costly but they come with decent stuff.
    *If not enough cash get Thieves, Brawlers and Farmhands. They are cheaper but still solid for a meat shields.
    *Avoid fighting Goblins or Orcs. Greenskins are deadly to low level under equipped companies. The same goes for a werewolf packs.

    Even if one brother survive you can come back. Run deliveries or exploration quests. Gather some cash and supplies.

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