Beta 22.02.17 feedback

[RusBear]

0.9.0.26
If sergeant with 135 Resolve can’t during 2 rounds stop fleeing and up braking in 1-3 gex area…for what we need such sergeant?

[Namespace]

Yolan wrote:

I assume that the way the Battle Brothers world worked in earlier versions was more like this. As I recall, you were more likely to run into all kinds of nasty creatures that were spawning around and marching about. Is this something that has now been actively moved away from for some reason? I understand that the devs want to have the player enjoy a somewhat more balanced experience, but I hope more of a objective simulation approach to the game can be taken, with player strength only having a minimum influence on overall world difficulty. There are other ways of keeping the player from getting hammered by far superior forces than is reasonable. For example, using geography (few goblins/orcs or undead in human lands).

The game used to scale difficulty with renown. I am not sure if it still does, but I believe so. At first I rushed the ambitions and felt that enemies became stronger much more quickly now, I just stay at “get 12 recruits” for as long as possible to not increase difficulty quite as fast. In that respect, doing delivery missions for 100 crowns or so are actually really bad since they will increase renown but hardly give any reward.
Right now it seems the best way to progress is by trading and hunting roaming raider bands and to destroy spawned camps.

To be honest the biggest problem right now are enemy ranged units. Sure, having geists at around day5 is a “bit” early but I can mostly avoid those.
You also said late game crises at around day 90?! How is that late game? I expected that to hit around day 300 maybe, with the highest renown level possible. At day 90 I am glad if I got all my guys to lv11 and those brothers will mostly be garbage. FAR, VERY far from what I would call end game or being min-maxed.

Currently I have the most fun in the first 30 days or so where the game still feels balanced (almost too easy even). 1-skull contracts are easy but are hardly worth the time in terms of rewards. 2-skull contracts are a bit more challenging but I usually don’t hesitate to take them. Worst that will happen is I lose a guy if I make a mistake. 3-skull contracts give good amount of cash but are also dangerous. After that the game just becomes way too fast. Then there is some ludicrous jump in difficulty and you may encounter necrosavants in a 2-skull contract.

Please, guys. Just slow down. Let’s chill. I think the perfect way to describe the feeling I get from the game right now is that I feel under time pressure, very stressful.

[Human Warlord]

Yeah the part about world difficulty level scaling is totally wrong. Its unfair, what sense in reputation if it just make guests harder but cost the same? This is absolutely unfair. If i want challenge i just go in orks lands or sloughter some nobles. But if my party got wiped and i have just few newbies, but even the one skull quests become as hard as three early game quest, this is over.
If you want raze difficulty make more quest with more skulls but dont scale the world itself, or make less contracts. Or if we killed to much brigands/greenskins then there will be no one to raid settlements and then it will be no work.
Actually in logical world 20 mercenaries cant kill all but they always can take more hurder contracts so reputation must not change the difficulty for free but simply create contracts with more skulls, why only three? make like four and more difficulty levels.

[RusBear]

0,9,0,29

Too much up for the initiative in this beta. I heard rumors that in the this game there were other statistics besides the resolve and initiative.

[le_souriceau]

Yep, stressful. Ironicly with current balance more fame (as you may think good for mercs) =/= better. Nothing so profitable comes from it, only troubles. Avoiding rising it (or slowing process down) is viable tactic for more safer difficulty curve.

Anyway, no matter what you doing (if playing on vet) one day game slams you with mostly impossible fights (30 +, even 40 + elite tier enemies), witch can only be “scummed” with save-loads or cheap “kill 5 guys – retreat – repeat”.

Currently there is achievment about black monolith — no matter difficulty, it has 47 ancient undeads (7 necrosavants, 3 priests, rest hounour guard/legioniers). Anyone won it with one battle? How?

[mrbunnyban]

le_souriceau wrote:

Yep, stressful. Ironicly with current balance more fame (as you may think good for mercs) =/= better. Nothing so profitable comes from it, only troubles. Avoiding rising it (or slowing process down) is viable tactic for more safer difficulty curve.

Anyway, no matter what you doing (if playing on vet) one day game slams you with mostly impossible fights (30 +, even 40 + elite tier enemies), witch can only be “scummed” with save-loads or cheap “kill 5 guys – retreat – repeat”.

Currently there is achievment about black monolith — no matter difficulty, it has 47 ancient undeads (7 necrosavants, 3 priests, rest hounour guard/legioniers). Anyone won it with one battle? How?

The devs mentioned that folks beat it within an hour of it being introduced if I’m not mistaken.

[Sarissofoi]

Well there is always cheat engine and altering stats.
But game clearly isn’t balanced around ironman.
Its too easy to lose people on expert especially to massed ranged and polearms users. Especially that not only player is nerfed because his progress is slower and he is short on funds but also enemy get additional troops on that difficulty.
Replacing troops is really painful and grindy process. Frustrating plainly.
If you forgive me my bad mood I will start my complain list. I will throw also praise list as a bonus.

First enemy AI.
Its great actually. Good progress from older builds and sometimes its feel to smart even(but mostly because it has plenty of tools that player do not have or can’t afford on his troops). Great job. Most of the problems were fixed and enemy AI is truly dangerous right now(which is annoyng and frustrating sometimes but in good way).
Cheers. Don’t know who did this but you did outstanding job. I could even buy you a beer.

Secondly Ghoul rework
I still miss old dead eating monkeys but the new demonic spawn is fine. Its also more dangerous but I think its mostly because of upgraded AI and better stats on higher more feed levels. The eat soldier ability is OP(especially if there is more of big ones) as they can easily eat few soldiers and there is nothing that player can do with it. Anyway good job.

Third bandits buff
Bandits were always low to mid levels threat and honestly they were here for a player units to gain levels and free lower quality gear. Kinda of less of more safe zone. There were some strong units like rogue knights, sowrdmasters and bandit leaders but most of them were rabble(but even then polearms and xbows were a problem).
Now I do not understood logic why enemy marksmans get buffed. Anyone care to explain this?
They were threat even before now they can snipe my troops with precision. They should not be a that big threat and they can kill single trooper at first turn(especially on expert where they get extra numbers). They should be support troops.
Small suggestion if I can do that.
Strip Marksmen from their perks and skills. They could get better gear and weapons, maybe quick hands and nets for night fights, but lower their ranged capabilities. Its simply not fun to lose guys to ranged enemy fire. Second thing take away puncture weapons from them.
There could be also some mid unit between thugs and raiders – simply better armed thug/worse armed raider with lesser skills and no perks.
Overall bandits should be a kind of filler faction that player face before he can fight Nobles, Undeads or Orks. Also enemy where he can go back when he got stumped so he can recover.

Fourth Orcs
Orcs are fine although Orc Warriors are still strong.
I wish they have some mid unit between young and warriors(even if it mean just dividing young orcs into less geared and better geared versions)

Fifth Old undead.
Well geist are annoying and sometimes frustrating to fight. Especially that banner have really low range and not dedicated rally men are rather non effective.

Six Banner
Rather underwhelming. Its necessary to have it as there are new resolve mechanics but its weaker than old sergant perk and you can have only one. And whole banner is also weak weapon and bonus is lost if not used. Sadly banner lack any special or even typical pike skills. Necessary but rather uncool. Taking off confident was fine move but connected with other things it nerfed it too much. Please consider increasing range of banner, % of bonus and add some special abilities to it so its more cool then necessary.

Seventh Veteran Hall
Its definitely feel weak. The bonus is fine although I would move it to temple(as kind of blessing with resolve bonus and not scaling cost) and instead make Veteran Hall place when player can buy some levels for troops(like up to 5-6 maybe) so its easier replace losses and lessen the grind.
Getting some outside tree perks or some additional weapon masteries would be nice too.
Maybe possibility to get rid of bad traits or get some good traits?
Or changing the backgrounds? With some bonuses to attributes? SO player can change his old daytalers into mercenaries or landsknehts?
Respecing perks would also be great addition.
Now its just feel meh and on expert it too costly anyway.

Acht Inventory space
Its small already and I do not understood logic to limit it.
If at last ambition to expand it was a repeatable one – it would be fine but it isn’t by the look of it. So bring back 99 for start and make ambition repeatable. With amount of food, spare armors and weapons, consumables and other stuff not even mention loot player need to carry inventory space is too small.

Neun Perks
I like this few changes that come with this update. Still some perks just feel weak and some get nerfed unnecessary(like gifted – it wasn’t that strong in first place), Shield expert could use the buff(either cheaper cost for shieldwall like weapon masteries-25% cost or similar effect to brawny but for shields-say 50% less fatigue cost). Bags and belts feel really weak right now. Lone wolf could use some flat buff to stats(or at last to resolve)

Tenth Reserves
It could use second reserve row and bigger reserve place(up to 25). With amount of specialization of troops needed for specific enemies and with amount of chained battles or injuries it would be great to have more space for new guys. You can’t now rip enemy with universal soldier.

Elven Fatigue
Its really un fun mechanic right now. Recovery feel mandatory in longer fights and you can’t level fatigue each level up as you need spread up level ups. Especially right now when enemy missed attacks also stack fatigue on character. Why not bring back some other ways to recover fatigue? Or at last increase fatigue regeneration when character have not used ap?

Twelve Early levels and full builds
It really feels like grind to get to end levels. Do you even consider giving bonus rolls to early levels and maybe double perks on first 3 levels(at cost no perks on 3 last levels) . It would make leveling much smoother and player can try new build earlier. Now its really feel painful to just level character to try and if he is not good to level him again.

Thirteen Magic
Enemy magicians could used higher fatigue costs.

Fourteen. New undead.
Well they feel strong. Very strong. Old skeletons(end game) composition was usually dozen skeletons(current auxiliaries), half dozen fallen heroes(shield legionaries) and half dozen guard skeletons(pike legionnaires). And there is a honor guard and priest. Now they come with great numbers and they are pretty deadly. Good fight when you have end game troopers but middle to high they are pain. Overall they get buffed. Good job but fighting them on early to mid levels feel unfair.

Well I probably have some more things to say but currently do not remember them sadly.
Ah. End crisis come too early. And they repeat too fast.

[Wargasm]

Sarissofoi wrote:

Why not bring back some other ways to recover fatigue?

Old Battle Flow added into Berserk.

[Sarissofoi]

Wargasm wrote:

Sarissofoi wrote:

Why not bring back some other ways to recover fatigue?

Old Battle Flow added into Berserk.

That would it make really strong. And berserk already is pretty strong.
Personally I would like to see weaponmaster come back.

[Namespace]

@Sarissofoi you summarized that nicely. I do agree with most of the points you made.

I think highest priority items would be Endgame crisis too fast (150-300 days) would be adequate imo, Nachzehrer – swallow ability, having undead legionaires show up a little later and/or in fewer numbers, inventory space, better banner (maybe upgrade) or attach flag to any polearm, fatigue management is too harsh and well.. bandit rebalancing (though since the last update it felt they did some ghost tweaks already).

Anyways good job guys, I really like these most recent changes to perks and archery!

[le_souriceau]

Weapon balance still rather weak too.

May be I don’t understand something, but warhammers is way above any other 1-handed weapons late game — most problematic enemies (orcs, ancient undead, elite human units) heavly armored. Warhammer become even more powerful after last undate — now you can effectivly exploit destroyed enemy armor by archers directly behind hammer-guy.

Throwing weapons, even with perk still poor choice over other ranged options. It needs damage buff, may be some new variants or attacks. Speaking of variants — armor-piercing sword (estoc) or spear (ahlspiess) will be very nice addition.

[Wargasm]

Sarissofoi wrote:

Personally I would like to see weaponmaster come back.

Yeah. I thought the new perk (Overwhelm) was going to be the return of Weaponmaster. The trouble currently (especially with fatigue made more of an issue) is that you want to select the right weapons for dealing with each enemy, but you really need the fatigue efficiency that comes from mastery as the game gets on, and that in turn forces you to specialize too narrowly.

Before, when you could be more of a generalist, people wanted more specific perks that would give the feel of the mercenary gradually becoming one with the weapon used. But you don’t always want to use the same weapon, and weapons aren’t so different that skills learned using one would not be at all transferable to others. What tends to happen now, with the more specific perks, doesn’t actually give off the feel of evolving with the weapon used. Instead, you tend to use more accurate, less fatiguing swords and spears until skill and energy levels have been bulked up adequately, and then suddenly switch them over to a more devastating weapon.

While it doesn’t seem authentic for a mercenary to always carry around four different big weapons at the same time (without any additional fatigue cost) and switch between them at will (without any action point cost), it also doesn’t seem authentic that a mercenary would face up to a massive variety of deadly enemies while always relying on just one weapon (with none of the skills developed with that weapon crossing over into the use of other weapons).

Another factor is the availability of high-quality weapons. You might have looted some good-quality standard axes, and so you decide to make your merc with the best melee skill an axe master, but then in the next battle you loot a rare sword that has 40% of damage ignoring armour and a +15% chance to hit the head, and you think “oh shit”.

Although the weapon masteries are weapon-specific, they aren’t very specific to the particular physical skill that’s used. Riposte and Split/Swing are very different skills, for example. In reality, there’s much more crossover between Split/Swing and Round Swing and Shatter than there is between Split/Swing and Riposte.

What I think should happen is that:

— Polearm Mastery should be altered into a mastery of 2-handed weapons (polearms, longaxes, great-swords/axes/hammers and any other 2-handed melee weapons) that reduces the fatigue costs and increases the accuracy/damage of all the relevant attacks (including Split Shield when using any 2-handed weapon that has that skill)
— All the other melee weapon masteries should reduce the fatigue costs of using any 1-handed melee weapon, but should confer accuracy/damage bonuses specific to the weapon chosen
— Throwing Mastery should also reduce the fatigue and action point costs of net-throwing, and (since throwing weapons are 1-handed weapons akin to spears and axes) should reduce the fatigue costs of using any 1-handed melee weapon

[Namespace]

Wargasm wrote:

What I think should happen is that:

— Polearm Mastery should be altered into a mastery of 2-handed weapons (polearms, longaxes, great-swords/axes/hammers and any other 2-handed melee weapons) that reduces the fatigue costs and increases the accuracy/damage of all the relevant attacks (including Split Shield when using any 2-handed weapon that has that skill)
— All the other melee weapon masteries should reduce the fatigue costs of using any 1-handed melee weapon, but should confer accuracy/damage bonuses specific to the weapon chosen
— Throwing Mastery should also reduce the fatigue and action point costs of net-throwing, and (since throwing weapons are 1-handed weapons akin to spears and axes) should reduce the fatigue costs of using any 1-handed melee weapon

This sounds very nice indeed. All the different masteries are kind of exhausting tbh. I think you could add a ranged mastery for xbows, bows, thrown, nets. I’m fairly certain that someone who is good with a bow will be even more accurate on a crossbow so it makes sense from an immersion perspection too.

[Wargasm]

Namespace wrote:

This sounds very nice indeed. All the different masteries are kind of exhausting tbh. I think you could add a ranged mastery for xbows, bows, thrown, nets. I’m fairly certain that someone who is good with a bow will be even more accurate on a crossbow so it makes sense from an immersion perspection too.

I was going to suggest an across-the-board Ranged Mastery, and certainly that would make throwing weapons much more viable, and it would make sense that someone with a deadly aim would utilize whichever weapon best fitted the context, rather than always specializing in just one narrow weapon type.

Mind you, while someone good with a longbow would surely be good with a crossbow, the reverse isn’t necessarily so, and throwing an axe or javelin is a very different physical skill from them both. So I dunno. But I do think there needs to be more crossover of weapon skills.

I like the fact that initiative, resolve and hit points have become more meaningful in the game, but I don’t like the fact that max fatigue has been made almost utterly unsustainable (no matter how high the starting value). Combat involves using skills, and skills use fatigue, and more max fatigue equals a greater variety of skills that you can use more often, making the game more interesting. I so much preferred the old Battle Flow perk to Recover, because that involved fatigue recovery as a reward for doing something exciting, rather than as the result of abstaining from doing anything at all (besides panting, of course).

[RusBear]

I think that the weapons mastery should be several levels and to get higher levels of skil should be possible at 12 th level.

[Author]

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