Neither generalist nor specialist: A "Hybrid" approach to team building

[ManaSeed]

>> Even high morale can’t protect you against 18 Lost Souls yelling at you in a row.
Best joke of the day. I laughed again when I imagine about the scene (ノ＞▽＜。)ノ Must be really disastrous. You’re not exaggerating right?
18 lost souls can be troublesome. You might not able to take out all of them in first round due to initial distance.

Thank god it wasn’t me.

>> By the way, aren’t ranged weapons limited to 5% against the Lost Souls?
You sure? I remember my crossbow kill one lost soul within 3 hits. If remember correctly, the hit chance is about 23%.

>> Anyways, as I explained, it’s perfectly possible using the numbers you guys gave.
True.
But I wish you gaiz can stop talking about theoretically possible but practically near impossible stuff.
Asking someone to get a Hedge Knight with 55 initial melee with Dexterous is nothing but a punish game.

[Saitorosan]

And of course as soon as I post that I get this as a mission battle. :/

Edit: 49% to hit. Not even my best ranged guy.

Attachments:

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   Lost-Souls.jpg
   

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   Lost-Souls-range.jpg
   

[Holy.Death]

What about Fortified Mind? Most folks do use tanks; and tanks have enough Perk slots to get Fortified Mind. And a few Fortified tanks should handle them easily.

There are two problems with that – 1: taking a perk only to be able to fight a single enemy type shows how otherwise useless this perk is. 2: if I have to take Fortified Mind to be able to use any tactic against that particular enemy (other than “try to stab them with a spear and pray), then it shows that I am out of options. No other enemy present such a problem.

Minimum to hit them with ranged is not locked at 5 either, I’ve seen as good as 17% with a decent ranged guy and crossbow, no height advantage, 6 spaces out. I’m guessing with more specialization and better conditions that can go way up.

Interesting. I will have to check it out later. I thought that 5% chance to hit with ranged was kind of a racial perk for the Lost Souls (to make them more scary opponents) and didn’t bother with ranged since then.

And of course as soon as I post that I get this as a mission battle. :/

Welcome to the club, brother.

[Invictus73]

Holy.Death wrote:

There are two problems with that – 1: taking a perk only to be able to fight a single enemy type shows how otherwise useless this perk is. 2: if I have to take Fortified Mind to be able to use any tactic against that particular enemy (other than “try to stab them with a spear and pray), then it shows that I am out of options. No other enemy present such a problem.

Currently there are only like five main enemy types: So if a Perk completely makes one of those types a walkover, it’s hardly useless. And devs have indicated there will be more enemy types where this Perk is needed. Moreover, as I’ve said, you don’t need to slap this Perk on everyone: Do it just on a few tanks, and that’s sufficient. And I say tanks, because after Rotation and perhaps Brawny, you could go in a lot of directions as far as T2 Perks are concerned on a tank. So it’s not like you’ve got something clearly superior you’d need anyways (which would be the case with a DPS character or a Captain character who cannot afford spare Perks).

[Saitorosan]

Actually, you’d be better served using high dodge guys than typical tanks, even without FM, as lost souls do damage directly to HP regardless of armor. If you’re only fighting LS and have the chance to re equip, it’s actually best to go in naked for extra fatigue and initiative (pay no attention to my screenshots not showing this in action :P).

[Invictus73]

Saitorosan wrote:

Actually, you’d be better served using high dodge guys than typical tanks, even without FM, as lost souls do damage directly to HP regardless of armor. If you’re only fighting LS and have the chance to re equip, it’s actually best to go in naked for extra fatigue and initiative (pay no attention to my screenshots not showing this in action :P).

I don’t think that’s needed though, as Lost Souls drop so easily. And they are not really that hard to hit at least in my experience, since I’ve got a lot of Perfect Focus/Battle Flow characters with very high Melee/Range Skill.

[Saitorosan]

No not needed at all. Lost souls are the type of enemy that will wreck you if you make a bad mistake though, and a fleeing swordmaster has a much better chance than a tanky guy, unless your tanky guys usually have high mdefense. Also, they can close on you and just flat out swing at you, it seems rare but it’s happened. Getting someone surrounded by lost souls is bad for business. As for fighting them nude, you always want to act before them if at all possible. I just don’t care enough to go through all the equipping for a slight beef against guys I don’t have a problem with.

I use hit and run, pick off as many as I can and use polearms to keep as much distance as possible. Don’t ever use 1 range weapons, too much can go wrong if you’re standing right next to one of these little punks.

[Invictus73]

Saitorosan wrote:

No not needed at all. Lost souls are the type of enemy that will wreck you if you make a bad mistake though, and a fleeing swordmaster has a much better chance than a tanky guy, unless your tanky guys usually have high mdefense. Also, they can close on you and just flat out swing at you, it seems rare but it’s happened. Getting someone surrounded by lost souls is bad for business. As for fighting them nude, you always want to act before them if at all possible. I just don’t care enough to go through all the equipping for a slight beef against guys I don’t have a problem with.

I use hit and run, pick off as many as I can and use polearms to keep as much distance as possible. Don’t ever use 1 range weapons, too much can go wrong if you’re standing right next to one of these little punks.

In all honesty, I fought them only twice so far; so I haven’t seen when things go wrong. So perhaps it’s not quite as easy as I thought (but then, half of my team has Fortified Mind, and the other 2 Captains have over 90 Resolve, so I don’t see how things could go wrong).

[Saitorosan]

Nah they are fairly easy, but they can regular melee attack you and that can break your guys just the same if they land. Like Ivan Drago break, not just “hey guys I don’t know about this” break.

They’re really most dangerous against low level groups or players who don’t know what they do. Once you’re cruising past most other stuff they’re not scary.

[Invictus73]

Saitorosan wrote:

Nah they are fairly easy, but they can regular melee attack you and that can break your guys just the same if they land. Like Ivan Drago break, not just “hey guys I don’t know about this” break.

They’re really most dangerous against low level groups or players who don’t know what they do. Once you’re cruising past most other stuff they’re not scary.

Yeah, at this point every fight is a joke, and I am not even in danger of losing folks, much less losing fights.

The game needs an update with more and stronger mobs, and better rewards (hello, magic items!).

[ManaSeed]

>> Saito: second image
LOL. I laughed when I looked at so many lost souls.

Where did you gaiz find the Hell’s gate? I would like to try the terror myself. I’ve never gotten such mission before.

>>
Holy: taking a perk only to be able to fight a single enemy type shows how otherwise useless this perk is.
Invictus: So if a Perk completely makes one of those types a walkover, it’s hardly useless.

Assuming we decided to choose defense perk branch as main/secondary branch, spending a tier two perk point just to handle one type of troublesome enemy (to me it’s troublesome, or deadly when mishandled)……. is a painful way to spend tier two perk points.

Even if devs enable lost soul to have triple or quadruple effect, it is still painful because the precious tier two perk point spent HAS NO FRIGGIN USE when I’m not fighting these bit- beaches. So even if it’s logical or mathematically rewarding, my sentiments are unhappy!!! щ(ºДºщ)

===============
Question
Lost Soul has a ranged attack (a howling/screaming), has anyone dodged it before (without Fortified Mind)?

[Invictus73]

By the way, anyone done extensive Greataxe v. Greatsword testing? I haven’t, but I have hitherto given my DPS melees Greataxes, due to their seemingly bigger raw damage numbers (on the basis of tooltip). But since I’ve started giving my DPS guys Nasal Helmet with Mail (got tired of getting their helmets broken), one of my DPS guys doesn’t have enough Fatigue to swing Greataxes 4 times with Perfect Focus. So I now have to give him a Greatsword. Am I going to lose a lot of DPS?

[ManaSeed]

Since you look like you could use any kind of info, I simply copy paste some very limited data from my BB compendium(for my personal use), so broken english is not fixed and everything is messy as hell. Ask if you find anything strange. Because Full Force might modify your damage based on armor, I jot down the raw damage numbers (on the basis of tooltip). Accuracy factor is not included at all.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greatsword against Orc Warrior with helmet, skill used: Overhead Strike, skill description 105~133 dmg, 152~192 armor dmg
Hits to kill
4, 4, 2, 4 = average of 3.5

>> not sure, but it seems if dmg increases a little more (around skill description 105~142 dmg, 152~205 armor dmg, it takes 1 less hit to kill Orc Warrior
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greatsword against Orc Young, skill used: Overhead Strike, skill description 105~133 dmg, 152~192 armor dmg
Hits to kill
2, 2, 2
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greatsword against Orc Young with helmet & body armor, skill used: Overhead Strike, skill description 105~162 dmg, 152~234 armor dmg
Hits to kill
1, 1
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greatsword against Orc Berserker, skill used: Overhead Strike, skill description 105~133 dmg, 152~192 armor dmg
Hits to kill
2
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greataxe against Orc Warrior with helmet, skill used: Split Man, skill description 120~154 dmg, 234~301 armor dmg
Hits to kill
3, 3, 4, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 3, 4, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greataxe against Orc Warrior with helmet, skill used: Split Man, skill description 120~157 dmg, 234~307 armor dmg
Hits to kill
3, 4
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greataxe against Orc Warrior with helmet, skill used: Split Man, skill description 120~198 dmg, 234~386 armor dmg
Hits to kill
3, 3, 2, 3
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greataxe against Orc warrior without helmet, skill used: Split Man, skill description 120~154 dmg, 234~301 armor dmg
Hits to kill
3, 2, 2

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

Since you look like you could use any kind of info,…

Indeed; I do not do anything half arse, as my friends would testify (whether in my studies, pursuing women, representing clients, even internet troll wars [well, perhaps not this any longer, as I’ve matured!]).

ManaSeed wrote:

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greatsword against Orc Warrior with helmet, skill used: Overhead Strike, skill description 105~133 dmg, 152~192 armor dmg
Hits to kill
4, 4, 2, 4 = average of 3.5

>> not sure, but it seems if dmg increases a little more (around skill description 105~142 dmg, 152~205 armor dmg, it takes 1 less hit to kill Orc Warrior
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greatsword against Orc Young, skill used: Overhead Strike, skill description 105~133 dmg, 152~192 armor dmg
Hits to kill
2, 2, 2
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greatsword against Orc Young with helmet & body armor, skill used: Overhead Strike, skill description 105~162 dmg, 152~234 armor dmg
Hits to kill
1, 1
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greatsword against Orc Berserker, skill used: Overhead Strike, skill description 105~133 dmg, 152~192 armor dmg
Hits to kill
2
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greataxe against Orc Warrior with helmet, skill used: Split Man, skill description 120~154 dmg, 234~301 armor dmg
Hits to kill
3, 3, 4, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 3, 4, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greataxe against Orc Warrior with helmet, skill used: Split Man, skill description 120~157 dmg, 234~307 armor dmg
Hits to kill
3, 4
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greataxe against Orc Warrior with helmet, skill used: Split Man, skill description 120~198 dmg, 234~386 armor dmg
Hits to kill
3, 3, 2, 3
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– Greataxe against Orc warrior without helmet, skill used: Split Man, skill description 120~154 dmg, 234~301 armor dmg
Hits to kill
3, 2, 2

It’s a small sample, but greataxe seems more effective against really heavily armored foes?

[ManaSeed]

>> well, perhaps not this any longer, as I’ve matured!
＿φ(□□ヘ) Someone says a humble person will never tell you he is humble. Same goes for mature person.
＿φ(□□ヘ) But this a friggin lie because today I saw a matured person said he was matured.

====================================================
>> It’s a small sample, but greataxe seems more effective against really heavily armored foes?
I’ve been wondering about that too. All I know is greataxe can kill a single orc warrior faster than greatsword. For Perfect Flow brothers, I think it is more stamina-efficient to take out orc warrior one by one with greataxe, rather than using greatsword area attack on multiple orc warriors.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

There is something that hinders me from comparing greatsword and greataxe in full extent, without collecting a lot of data. Let’s take a look at the following.

– Greatsword against Orc Warrior with helmet & armor, skill used: Overhead Strike, skill description 105~133 dmg, 152~192 armor dmg
　　First hit:
　　　　　181, 178, 172, 181, 171, 192 armor dmg

　　Second hit:
　　　　　99 armor dmg, 14 body dmg
　　　　　102 armor dmg 22 body dmg
　　　　　108 armor dmg, 3 body dmg
　　　　　88 armor dmg, 22 body dmg

✭ when it hits for head(helmet) ==> it only dealt 120 helmet dmg, destroyed the helmet then no other extra dmg is dealt to head

Greatsword can deal at least 170 armor dmg in first hit ==> 170-120 = 50 helmet dmg (remaining force/impact after breaking the helmet)

[body dmg/armor dmg] ratio for Overhead Strike = [(105+133)/2] / [(152+192)/2] = 119 / 172 = 70%

Let’s convert the remaining force (50 helmet dmg) into head damage = 50 x 0.7 = 35 head dmg (but in reality zero head dmg was dealt)

The penetrated force reduces drastically (far more than simple calculation), you can also see this from damage shown for second hit. This applies the same way for Greataxe. (probably the same for all weapons)

Greataxe’s Split Man hits both head and body, so it can break both helmet and armor. Making it hard to compare Greatsword and Greataxe extensively without collecting a lot of data.

[Author]

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