Reply To: Some Necrosavants Part II: The Rustling

[Sekata]

hruza wrote:

If I understand you right, those necros were not part of the quest. They were simply roaming around while you were heading to the location of the quest (otherwise they would not follow you on the world map).

You could as well run in to them while doing anything else in the game.

As for not able to evade …you can always hit retreat button once in the battle. Yes, you would get your mercs injured repeatedly since they would catch you again, but those injuries does not stack, it takes the same time to heal single injury as it take to heal five injuries (approximately).

So only issue would be loose of the morale and it would be race to find some allied party before your mercs start deserting you.

It’s not automatic game over. Even if you would loose most or all the mercs it would not be automatic game over unless you have no spare equipment and no money at all. You can almost always recover.

Gambling? Yes, luck plays role in this game, but more often it’s your own decisions that matter. You seems to insist in your post that game should be somehow fair and balanced. I disagree. It’s an open world sandbox game, fact that you can run in to enemy which is well beyond your ability is something I consider good, not bad design. Fact that enemies can overpower you IS fair. Because you can also overpower them. Would you complain on the fact that you as a player took on group of 4 enemy tugs in rags and clubs with your party of 12 veterans? I don’t think so.

The possibility of running into them anywhere is exactly my point this early in the game.

They very clearly follow me on the worldmap, which is why there are two battle sites on the screenshot. In the last necrosavant post, that necrosavant army followed me on the worldmap and I was nowhere near a visible undead camp.

Notice the banner above the undead worldmap army and the banner above the structure . They were spawned from that location, and the location description mentions hemovores, which is what necros used to be called in earlier builds. This is an enemy that guarantees loss in the form of time or crowns one way or the other. The punishment is simply for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Choosing your engagement isn’t a factor because you can’t outrun them on the worldmap. You have to engage at one point or another.

If I ran into them by clicking the structure and they were the quest enemies I would be perfectly fine . I can retreat, and they would be confined to the structure. But this is a roaming army that could have caught me on the road just as easily and did in another playthrough. This isn’t a case of making a risky attack or a long shot quest and being punished for it. It’s a case of being punished for being at the wrong place at the wrong time without clear error on the player’s part. The enemy type should not spawn as a roaming army this early, and it’s worth noting that the location and associated dangers came attached to a 2 skull contract.

As I mentioned, I did hit retreat. You can see two separate battle sites on that screen shot. The first is when they attacked me the first time and the second is where they caught up to me again after recovering from the retreat stun.

@hruza I try and give you the benefit of the doubt in other posts. I try not to assume anything that you haven’t said and I’m doing my best to very clearly read what you’re implying. Rather than implying that you don’t know the game, I assume that you’re a competent player and are simply fine with things as they are. Please do the same for me even if we differ on what we consider balanced or good design.

Do I ever use the word fair? No, I don’t. ctrl+f. Please, go for it. Only use of the word is in your post.

In the original Necrosavant thread I use the word, but I define the term. Fair is simply the player having the tools to handle the situation presented in game. By handle I don’t mean win. If the player runs into an overpowering enemy type, that tool is retreat. Necrosavants cannot be retreated from without taking injuries since they teleport. Fighting them this early guarantees the loss of a brother. Non-engagement is not an option since they are faster on the worldmap. There is no single tool that the player has at this point to avoid loss, and had I killed them there would be no reward associated with the quest. They weren’t the target even though they spawned from the site.

If a player takes on a risky quest and finds enemies that he/she can’t contend with, then the punishment is either losing brothers in a bad fight, or losing relationship by retreating and cancelling the quest. In the case of necrosavants, the punishment is double headed. Since the army roams and is faster than you, you HAVE to engage. Retreat without either injury or death is a non-option. It also means that since the army roams, it can find you outside of the quest/reward loop. Having to take losses associated with Necrosavants in the early game winds up meaning punishment for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. That’s what I have an issue with.

I do imply some form of balance be maintained. I consistently say that the player should be punished for making a clear mistake. I mention that I would have expected to run into a group of legionaries, an enemy type that I can in no way contend with. That’s a battle that I simply could not fight, they’re even more dangerous than the necrosavants in close quarters. Legionaries can be evaded without guaranteed loss in the form of injuries and brothers. They don’t teleport. They aren’t faster on the worldmap.

Notice, I’m not complaining about having to flee from 3 bandit armies at once. I’m not complaining about orc marauders sacking caravans in two star quests on day 15. I’m not complaining about a difficult enemy just to complain. All of those dangers can be avoided and losses mitigated even if the player fails the quest.

Running into an enemy that can overpower you with the option to run is not the same thing as running into an enemy that you have to take automatic heavy losses from (in the form of coin or time). In one case, you rolled a dice that you can’t overcome (legionaries), but you can salvage the situation by choosing not to engage, since its the best option to prevent losses. Time to leave and regroup. In the other, you rolled a dice that gives you absolutely no option but to take loss because there is no escaping the enemy type. If you don’t have gold to hire more brothers there is no option but to wait for recovery, and that costs money over the long run.

And yea actually. I would complain about the thugs scenario. One of the biggest issue with builds before the ghoul rework was that the enemy was not threatening and no fun to fight. Every time one of the contracts popped up I would roll my eyes. There was no challenge or danger to it. It was just guaranteed time eaten up hitting an enemy that couldn’t really do anything in the mid-late game. That was worth complaining about. Similarly if the game only spawned thugs into the mid and late game it would be worth complaining about. When I have a good team going, I regularly turn down quests where the gold yield suggests that there won’t be a good fight. A game without challenge is boring. A game that punishes the player automatically, which is exactly what it means to run into necrosavants this early and be REQUIRED to take injuries or deaths because they can’t be outrun on the worldmap, is frustrating.

As far as I know, I’m giving feedback to the devs following the release period about how I as a player experience the game. Is that a crime? They might intend for it to be this way. I mention that in the post. If the experience is intended then it’s a non issue. A game that wants you to play on iron man but punishes the player arbitrarily is just not my kind of game. I have no way of knowing, so I post here. If it’s not what they intend it can be adjusted. I thought that was the point of this forum. Never-mind though. One player is fine with everything in the game. It must be balanced. Shut down the forum, no need to give feedback. Hruza likes it all. We solved balance guys! Pack it up, time to go home.

@hruza Please do not put words into my mouth. I’m fine discussing balance and the place of RNG in design philosophy, but its tiresome to have to repeat myself over and over again because it’s easier for you to be right if I said something that I never said. We have different opinions of what balance is in an open world game. That’s fine, I have no reason to think less of you for it. I won’t suggest that you’re ok with things that you have not explicitly stated. Do me the same favor.