Topic: How fearsome be relatively weak?

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  • #21936
    Avatar photoFlickering

    First I have to confess I dont exactly know the morale mechanic exactly, and if rap could explain a little, that would be greatly appreciated.

    I comprehend morale in this way, if not immune to morale check by losing HP, ie not undead or no deathwish,
    1, 15 or more HP damage will do a negative morale check if without fearsome, no more than 1 level lower than before
    2,1or more, ditto with fearsome.

    So the actually difference is the threshold from 15 to 1, won’t make the check any easier, 1hp loss and 15hp loss having the same extent to affect morale. I think that’s what is commonly accepted.

    As for panic, always accompanying fleeing, is only a morale check for nearly ally on their resolve, has nothing bothering with the fleeing one’s resolve or if the attacker has fearsome. I think that’s what is commonly accepted.

    So the problem arises, does fearsome relatively weak for player?(actually too strong for AI)

    1.Player can get fearsome only above lv8, as ultimate perks for brothers, duelist killing frenzy and indomitable seem worth the point and worth expecting. But fearsome, oops, I think most people wont take it as soon as lv8, at most take it at lv11 if there ain’t a better one.

    2.So why does this happen? As explained above, the only difference after taking this perk was from15 to 1hp loss to make a check, so when will we benifit from that effect?
    1.Heavy armorrd opponent that has great hp damage reduction, but they always have higher resolve I think, hedge knight and warrior that’s to say, make them to flee is not relyable.
    2.Brother use one hand weapon while not a duelist build(ie. purely tank build), I think this would be eliminated gradually among your team.

    So, a relatively useful, only for low armor-ignore brother like tank or archer. Why make it more stronger for player or make it to be early accessed to counter bandit or brigand?

    By the way, dont you think bounty hunter OP? And it seems they come ignore the algorithm of enemy difficulty, 20+ of them after a 3skull contract at 20 days ironman expert mode. That’s foolish opponents that can never be won before day 200, limble with above 40+ chance, faster than nearly every brother, overwhelm, dagger mastery, net, 15 base melee defence, advanced archer. Isn’t it foolish? No one can make a sure hit even thought he is a supper warrior with100+ melee when affected by 5 stack of overwhelm, even if you make succeful hit, nimble take effect making you a fool……
    It’s like fighing with 20+ swordmaster with overwhelm perk.

    Avatar photoRusBear

    1. In this game all the opponents are better and stronger than you. There is no justice or loyalty for the player. The game is so conceived, “be ready to lose some men” and “loosing is fun”.) Formally, everything works better for AI, if only because AI does not have injuries at the beginning of a fight and opponents are always more and do not need to pay money and repair equipment. a lot of AI units have basic def and attack stats such that you do not always get to 11th level, etc. just take it)
    2. The bounty hunters are exclusively opponents. I’m sure Christof made them so conscious. There is one “but” – battle with them this is your personal choice of greed and self-confidence, they will never chase you on the map as 6 vampires on the 20th day of the company)

    Avatar photoFlickering

    Actually the main topic I think is fearsome perk, due to the current system it has little sense of presence.

    As for bounty hunter, they’re strong, not because of their ability, but their amount, they always come with 20+ of them in the 20+ 30+days, non-winable.
    Actually 6 vampires are much easier than 24 bounty hunter, you can win 6 vampire at a certain price, they are weak in amount you can win with net, surrounding, mace to stun, shield or pike to repel. No matter how strong it is, it can’t hurt you anymore. Actually if 6 of them come in 30+ day, Im sure I can win them with none hit with good tactic.
    But, bounty hunter, 20+ of them, it’s only a joke, never could win.

    Avatar photoNite

    for battle hammer it means you can start demoralize enemy at 205-280 armor (based on min-max damage), while w/o fearsome it will happen at 65-140. So differrense is ~2 hits more for same effect. For 300 armored enemies you will need 3-4 hits to the body instead of 5-6. Sorry, i didnt calculate it for some other weapons.

    Avatar photoFlickering

    for battle hammer it means you can start demoralize enemy at 205-280 armor (based on min-max damage), while w/o fearsome it will happen at 65-140. So differrense is ~2 hits more for same effect. For 300 armored enemies you will need 3-4 hits to the body instead of 5-6. Sorry, i didnt calculate it for some other weapons.

    Well, Im sorry I don’t know why you have to take hammer for example.
    Actually hammer has at least 10hp damage guarenteed. That means with fearsome demorale is guarenteed no matter how much armor opponent has. But hammer is just a especial exception, fearsome with hammer work well doesnot mean fearsome not weak.

    Avatar photoNite

    Ah, yeah, i missed it. Just use it’s numbers for calculations. Here come more detailed report:

    At first damage dealt to armor (modified vs it), and then deal to damage to health (modified by penetration), which is reduced by 10% of new armor value. And this damage must be more than 15 or 1:

    Dmg*vsHP-(Armor-Dmg*vsArmor)/10 >= 15
    Dmg*vsHP-(Armor-Dmg*vsArmor)/10 >= 1

    some math:

    Dmg*vsHP – (Armor-Dmg*vsArmor)/10 >= 15
    -(Armor-Dmg*vsArmor)/10 >= 15 – Dmg*vsHP
    armor/10-Dmg*vsArmor/10 <= Dmg*vsHP – 15
    armor/10 <= Dmg*vsHP-15+Dmg*vsArmor/10
    armor <= 10*(Dmg*(vsHP+vsArmor/10)-15)
    armor <= Dmg*(vsHP*10+vsArmor)-150

    >> armor <= Dmg*(vsHP*10+vsArmor)-150
    >> armor <= Dmg*(vsHP*10+vsArmor)-10

    This way you can get armor values at which demoralization caused.

    And second step – what a difference between armor values needed to deal 15 or 1 health damage? Lets some math go:

    armor-armor2 = (Dmg*(vsHP*10+vsArmor)-150) – (Dmg*(vsHP*10+vsArmor)-10)
    armor-armor2 = (Dmg*(vsHP*10+vsArmor)-150) – (Dmg*(vsHP*10+vsArmor)-10)
    armor-armor2 = 140

    So easy answer!
    As armor difference is static, so mostly useful information will be how many hits you need to overcome it. It depends on damage vs armor, so just =140/(damage*vsArmor).

    hits needed (average) to overcome the difference
    Warhammer 1,6-2,1 1,81
    Fighting Axe 2,0-3,2 2,60
    Winged Mace 2,3-3,6 2,98
    Military Cleaver 2,6-3,5 3,05
    Flail 2,5-3,6 3,07
    Fighting Spear 3,3-3,2 3,23
    Noble Sword 3,3-3,2 3,24
    Two-Handed Hammer 0,8-1,2 0,97
    Greataxe 0,9-1,2 1,05
    Billhook 1,0-1,6 1,30
    Great Sword 1,3-1,6 1,46
    Longaxe 1,3-1,8 1,58
    Battle Standard 2,0-2,8 2,40

    This means fearsome is better at weapons with bad vs armor stats.

    Also, there is some maximum armor to deal 15 damage with weapons:

    Noble Sword 0-0
    Fighting Spear 0-0
    Fighting Axe 0-83,75
    Flail 0-70
    Military Cleaver 0-54
    Winged Mace 28,5-130,5
    Battle Standard 50-130
    Warhammer 67,5-140
    Billhook 120-255
    Longaxe 137-239,5
    Great Sword 232,5-345
    Two-Handed Hammer 270-480
    Greataxe 290-400

    This means if your enemy have 300 armor then you dont need fearsome for Greataxe user :D
    Fearsome will reduce threashold for demoralization of 300 armor to like it’s 160, so LongAxe and BIllhook will proc it at 1st hit with high chance, while w/o this perk you will need 2 hits.

    If you fighting 500 (?) armor orcs, even Greataxe or 2h Hammer will cause no effect to their moral at 1st hit. While fearsome give them a chance to proc (~57% for 2h hammer, ~36% for greataxe).

    Overall i think fearsome is great against orcs and brigants, picked up by tanks and some support guys like sergeant. But also work well on archers as they cant kill armored units fast, but can turn them fleeing (but it still needed to lower targets armor first)

    Avatar photoFlickering

    I totally understand what your math stand for, glad to see that you have made your great effort. But I have to say There is little flaw when you calculate the min value of armor you still use the same formula while it ought not to.
    But this is not the point right?

    Like you have found out, fearsome only barely relatively useful for support guys like shield man or billman, it doesnot match it position in perk system as a terminal perk. That the point, it should get accessed earlier.

    And another point, fearsone not meant for low anti-armor weapon, maybe it should be ignor armor correctly. With duelist build even sword can cause 15+ hp againt opponent with 200+ armor let alone named sword.

    So actually, conclusion maybe, only support guy need it, and support guy is always lack of perk I guess.

    Avatar photoFotsvamp

    I like putting fearsome on a bowman, use rapid fire and lower the morale on two enemies, of course it still isn’t very effective versus armored foes, but it is really helpful vs bandits and goblins.

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