Revised Dodge too powerful?

[mrbunnyban]

So now dodge’s 15% of current initiative bonus to defence that lasts forever and never fades. Getting hit no longer removes the bonus, though accumulating fatigue would reduce it throughout the battle.

Anyone else think it’s too powerful as is? Compare Dodge in it’s current form to Anticipation and Underdog.

Anticipation adds 1 ranged defence + 0.1base ranged defence per tile. Most ranged weapons have a range of 6 or 7… so even with 20 base ranged defence it gives only say 7.2 to 8.4 extra ranged defence, reduced if the enemy comes closer.

Underdog has morale penalty negation as well, but let’s put that aside. Each enemy other than the first adds a -5 defence penalty (melee defence only?). A brother could possibly be surrounded by 6 enemies, so this bonus negates anywhere from -5 to -25 penalty. It’s pretty rare for anything more than -10 however; a brother surrounded by more than 3 enemies is probably going to die regardless.

Dodge adds to both ranged and melee defence. A lightly armored backline unit could easily maintain around 100 initiative with minor investment into the stat, and since they have such high ranged defence it’s quite likely no one will even try to shoot them. At 100 initiative, the brother would have +15 to both defences. A crossbow user could maintain low fatigue levels and thus not lose much of that bonus throughout the fight.

Perhaps Dodge’s 15% bonus could stand to be reduced to 10%? Even 7%? What do you guys think?

[Namespace]

I think its fine as is tbh. I am not quite sure how the anticipation formula works:

(1+10% of ranged defense) x distance – at 20 ranged def and a distance of 7 this would amount to 21 extra ranged defense. (I think this is how it works)
1 + (10% of ranged defense x distance) – same values would still amount to 15.

Dodge is quite nice in the early games when you don’t wear much armor. I am only using dodge on Archers really and the stat increase is not high enough to protect them from polearms reliably.

Underdog is still by far the best defensive perk for frontliners imo. In previous builds it used to be quite common actually to have a brother be surrounded by 6 orcs. It did not matter much being surrounded by that many enemies mostly due to how reach advantage worked. And it still happens to me quite often that some brothers on the flanks get surrounded by 3-4 direwolves at once.

Anyways, I see dodge being maybe a little bit too powerful in the early levels but it’s nice not losing quite as many archers to crossbows.

[GlyphGryph]

mrbunnyban wrote:

So now dodge’s 15% of current initiative bonus to defence that lasts forever and never fades. Getting hit no longer removes the bonus, though accumulating fatigue would reduce it throughout the battle.

It’s reduced by things like armor and fatigue. You’re either sacrificing armor to get a good sized bonus or accepting a lesser one, and even then it quickly fades over the course of a battle.

Underdog has morale penalty negation as well, but let’s put that aside. Each enemy other than the first adds a -5 defence penalty (melee defence only?). A brother could possibly be surrounded by 6 enemies, so this bonus negates anywhere from -5 to -25 penalty. It’s pretty rare for anything more than -10 however; a brother surrounded by more than 3 enemies is probably going to die regardless.

Defensive builds can regularly be intentionally surrounded by more than three enemies.

Dodge adds to both ranged and melee defence. A lightly armored backline unit could easily maintain around 100 initiative with minor investment into the stat, and since they have such high ranged defence it’s quite likely no one will even try to shoot them. At 100 initiative, the brother would have +15 to both defences. A crossbow user could maintain low fatigue levels and thus not lose much of that bonus throughout the fight.

This (and lightly armored swordsmen) is where it obviously shines, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

I think the bigger things is that anticipation is relatively weak by comparison and could use a buff. Basing it on your base ranged defense is just painful.

[Wargasm]

The Anticipation bonus to ranged defence is 1+ 10% of base ranged defence (not including shields, Dodge and any trait or morale effects). So, with 20 base defence and a range of 6 tiles, the bonus would be (1+2=3)x6 = 18 added to 20 for 38 ranged defence (+ any Dodge or morale/trait bonuses).

I think the old Dodge was too under-powerful. It was alluring, since it offered some free defence that was approximately equivalent to a shield, but all it took was a tiny scratch to the armour (with no hit point damage) and it was gone for good. That didn’t make much conceptual sense, to suddenly and permanently lose 10-20 melee and ranged defence because of an armour scratch.

I always thought maybe the strength of the bonus should gradually be reduced by a % equal to the % of hit points that had been lost.

Given that everyone’s been up in arms about the vulnerability of their ranged fighters, and indeed all of their fighters in the face of overwhelming hordes of enemies (including pikemen benefitting from multiple surround bonuses), a persistent Dodge bonus seems quite reasonable (especially since it is based on an initiative that now more readily drops because of fatigue imposed by enemy attacks).

It’s seemed to me that fighters with a heater shield, high initiative, the Dodge perk and 10-15 base melee defence tend to be hit only on odd occasions in typical melee fights (even when in contact with ~3 enemy melee fighters), but that they become suddenly super-vulnerable when there are lots of pikemen behind those enemies. That’s when you realize you need Underdog instead of a sexier offensive perk.

[Wanderer]

Unless you’re consistently getting +1 ranged defense increases, as far as the defense goes, using Initiative at +5 (which translates to basically +1/+2) is worse off than just picking up ranged defense. Dodge and Anticipation interfere with each other as far as choosing bonus points go; ranged fighters typically get ranged attack, max fatigue, and optionally max hp to prevent one-shots from heavy crossbows to the face (through their mail coif). Meaning you really only have one other stat to invest in: defenses, or initiative.

[mrbunnyban]

Wargasm wrote:

The Anticipation bonus to ranged defence is 1+ 10% of base ranged defence (not including shields, Dodge and any trait or morale effects). So, with 20 base defence and a range of 6 tiles, the bonus would be (1+2=3)x6 = 18 added to 20 for 38 ranged defence (+ any Dodge or morale/trait bonuses).

I think the old Dodge was too under-powerful. It was alluring, since it offered some free defence that was approximately equivalent to a shield, but all it took was a tiny scratch to the armour (with no hit point damage) and it was gone for good. That didn’t make much conceptual sense, to suddenly and permanently lose 10-20 melee and ranged defence because of an armour scratch.

I always thought maybe the strength of the bonus should gradually be reduced by a % equal to the % of hit points that had been lost.

Given that everyone’s been up in arms about the vulnerability of their ranged fighters, and indeed all of their fighters in the face of overwhelming hordes of enemies (including pikemen benefitting from multiple surround bonuses), a persistent Dodge bonus seems quite reasonable (especially since it is based on an initiative that now more readily drops because of fatigue imposed by enemy attacks).

It’s seemed to me that fighters with a heater shield, high initiative, the Dodge perk and 10-15 base melee defence tend to be hit only on odd occasions in typical melee fights (even when in contact with ~3 enemy melee fighters), but that they become suddenly super-vulnerable when there are lots of pikemen behind those enemies. That’s when you realize you need Underdog instead of a sexier offensive perk.

Oh, is THAT how the calculation for anticipation is? Thanks for the correction, that makes more sense.

[Wargasm]

Yeah. Anticipation becomes more powerful the higher the base ranged defence already is. Obviously its effect would be negligible if the base ranged defence was negligible. But if it’s at least ~10 then (combined with a Dodge bonus) it noticeably lowers the incidence of arrow wounds, and if it’s 20+ then it has a notable impact on its own.

If the character started with fairly high initiative, you don’t necessarily need to level-up initiative that much to sustain a decent Dodge bonus, especially since ranged fighters tend to be relatively lightly armed. If they are in heavier armour, the Brawny perk will bump initiative back up. Obviously I always level-up ranged attack when it’s high, and I do the same for ranged defence as well. Other than that, I tend to take whatever has a high roll or whatever’s currently the weakest point. Initiative is useful, since it means you get to shoot first at in-range enemies and can use the Overwhelm perk on them. More max fatigue can be good for using more quick shots and the Berserk perk once accuracy is high, although the fatigue efficiency that comes from weapon mastery means that you don’t necessarily need that much max fatigue (even if you do go berserk every other round). Melee attack is good for using backline weapons against enemies that can’t be damaged much with bows. Melee defence is handy for when orc warriors push their way into the backline. Hit points are good for not getting injured if you are hit. More resolve means you’re more likely to attain confident morale and get +10% ranged skill at the first positive morale check.

[mrbunnyban]

Wanderer wrote:

Unless you’re consistently getting +1 ranged defense increases, as far as the defense goes, using Initiative at +5 (which translates to basically +1/+2) is worse off than just picking up ranged defense. Dodge and Anticipation interfere with each other as far as choosing bonus points go; ranged fighters typically get ranged attack, max fatigue, and optionally max hp to prevent one-shots from heavy crossbows to the face (through their mail coif). Meaning you really only have one other stat to invest in: defenses, or initiative.

But sinking points into initiative also boosts initiative, which lends itself into many other benefits (say an overwhelming suppressing fire build. Enemy archers and even polearm users are no longer a problem.)

Besides, the perk uses your total net initiative, not only the extra points you dedicate to it every level up. You really don’t need to sink many points into initiative in order to greatly benefit from this perk. Equipment choice matters more.

[mrbunnyban]

Wargasm wrote:

the Brawny perk will bump initiative back up.

Wait what? Brawny also affects initiative, not just fatigue?

[Namespace]

mrbunnyban wrote:

Wait what? Brawny also affects initiative, not just fatigue?

It does. Notably if your archers are wearing Mail hauberks (150 armor, -18? fatigue) – probably gives you around 10-15 initiative back. On the other hand, it hardly gives you a boost if you are wearing named armor (~130-150, -10 fatigue or so). Ideally, I would try to equip my archers with named armor and helmet (~120-180 defense, no sight malus, looks like a direwolf head) so they are somewhat protected against crits and look awesome.

Anyways, while brawny seems nice I think it’s overall a wasted perk point on archers – in my next playthrough I will replace it with recover and see if that works any better.

[Wanderer]

mrbunnyban wrote:

Wanderer wrote:

Unless you’re consistently getting +1 ranged defense increases, as far as the defense goes, using Initiative at +5 (which translates to basically +1/+2) is worse off than just picking up ranged defense. Dodge and Anticipation interfere with each other as far as choosing bonus points go; ranged fighters typically get ranged attack, max fatigue, and optionally max hp to prevent one-shots from heavy crossbows to the face (through their mail coif). Meaning you really only have one other stat to invest in: defenses, or initiative.

But sinking points into initiative also boosts initiative, which lends itself into many other benefits (say an overwhelming suppressing fire build. Enemy archers and even polearm users are no longer a problem.)

Besides, the perk uses your total net initiative, not only the extra points you dedicate to it every level up. You really don’t need to sink many points into initiative in order to greatly benefit from this perk. Equipment choice matters more.

Problem in general is that towards late game, there will always be more enemy archers than your archers, to the point that unless you went all bows, there’s no way to put an Overwhelm stack on all of them. And if you go archer heavy, you’re basically asking to get surrounded by an enemy that outnumbers you.

Not to mention that trying to put up lots of Overwhelm stacks via Quick shot builds up Fatigue quickly, making enemy archers out-initative you anyways by virtue of less Fatigue.

At the end of the day, the question is: do you Crowd Control, or do you just outright kill them? I generally prefer the latter, because my two-handers are better crowd control via Shatter/Split/Swing.

[GlyphGryph]

I think the fact that every late game enemy relies so heavily on outnumbering you is… kind of an issue.

[le_souriceau]

After some terrible experience I always build my archers with dodge + anticipation (initiative/ranged/ranged def ups per lvl). It realy helps to solve enemy shooters problem for good (they almost never hit late game). Dodge also helps a lot against melee problems (when orc warrior breaks formation, per expamle).

Yep outnumbering is pretty hard – better just kill enemy faster. My personal favorite is 2h hammers, especialy if I can find rare one.

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