Topic: Magic: keeping up with the AI?

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  • #13600
    Avatar photoMiaphysites

    ** I searched for it.**
    mirroring the rules the Enemy follows, keeping up with the AI, is going to be the topic on this Thread here.
    Facing necromancers and werewolves and low fantasy enemies, it almost seems a given that we will get to hire Magic background companions? Hedge Wizards? Necromancers? Send skeletons back their way, your fallen companions. Maybe like the war-dogs with full autonomy, that would help the turn length. The magician’s ability to wear heavy armor is a question. But so is having 5 slots on all of them.
    One other Thread on the forum I’ve found here Horsies , seeing as there are now goblins riding around on wolves, surely the horses are coming? We’re losing the arms race to the NPC and AI! A charge benefit or HP benefit of course.
    I want to repeat one other idea from today, maintaining the 12 unit max turn-based combat, Merging of units. It seems like that, as the goblin on a wolf is ONE enemy, both attacking you if I am seeing it correctly, the enemy still can have 12 units I assume? Not only do we get horses, we should be able to Merge two battle brothers, into 1 buffed tag team of Close Companions, that do their action together, on 1 tile, makes sense to me. Sometimes I end up killing the wolf and sometimes the goblin on top, so they are both still exposed to combat. It would make for one heck of a cool Shield Wall, as that component is already in the game. As a player, I know I seem to smack into the 12 battle brothers limit rather early, I hope I’m not turning it into Battle Acquaintances. It is more Battle Brotherly when they watch each other’s back. Every time I consider it fully, I keep coming back to, allowing the Brotherly Merger, when they are both the same kind of warrior, with the same weapons equipped, for one smooth, single order per Turn with cumulative stats. Maybe even a I Work Well With You check!

    I don’t know where to reference what the intended function of the future Monastary/Church type building is meant to be, maybe some, excuse me, magic, and other functions are intended.

    Avatar photoMiaphysites

    I suddenly considered a hurdle on the UI and naming on a Paired unit? Programming wise, I hope the name values of the individuals are remembered like all the rest and maybe put a name on the new combined unit card? The names could be restored when they are Separated again. Or if there’s room for the first 5 characters of each’s name on the new name? The inventory values, assuming you can only Pair them with identical equipment, type of warrior, and weapons, would be much more manageable. The opposite direction to go on it would be some sort of Squire/knight huscarl/lord relationship, not very Battle Brotherly, and I had Not seen an example of the enemy having a Passive mob protected by an Active mob.
    I attached an artistic example for the visuals. Just off the internet, doesn’t look copyrighted or anything. I also realized, not all monsters are paired coming at the Battle Brothers, I’m not trying to disadvantage or advantage the game. The 12 soldier limit really does come on fast. A Perk for pairing is discussable although I’m against that, let the monks defend the monks and the disgraced noble share in a disgraced noble’s plight. Maybe the stats, are best expressable, as, a Cramped Quarters penalty -40% damage on all weapons. That way, its just basically a 20% bonus fielding 24 brothers with all their equipment and pay and everything. The late game money does sure seem to pile up by a lot of accounts, including mine. From what it looks like, the developers are already able to somehow control the healthpoints of the wolf, and the goblin, and maybe independent armor values, so maybe there’s some hidden mechanics here we can’t begin to comment. I know without Identical Equipment this is all demanding some sort of complete overhaul of UI features, identical backgrounds or levels, just get all those level 1 Beggar mobs! In my current UI scenario, the unit card is some Pair, the equipment slot shows Double Swords, Double-shields equipped, maybe we can drag two shields at a time into the slot ,get rid of all those round shields and extra equipment.

    Avatar photoSky

    It was said numerous times by the devs that the players will get no magic units or spells or whatever.

    And you can not mirror the enemy simply cuz they are different races with different inbuilt attributes from the get go. You can only mirror the human factions since those use the exact same stats and perks and equipment. All the others are different in ways that can not be matched. It is designed that the enemy magic is something you can not counter with yours but have to figure out how to deal with it the usual way. The other “races” have clear advantage and that is not hidden in any way, they are supposed to be scary and unnatural. You supposed to feel the dread of being a human leader with a human group in a dark word where not only other humans are a treath but the supernatural thisng aswell, to face enemies that are usually stronger than you.

    Avatar photoMiaphysites

    Now look I thought of all that plenty of times. Are you saying the humans are not going to have a Temple marshalling the powers from the Beyond? Its right there in the game! Human magic! Speaking of which, preliminarily, I assume if goblins send magical roots on the humans or throw nets on a Pair, maybe the Pair is slightly more effective at freeing their Battle Brother from whatever it is. And, I think its quite silly to say humans being humans can carry around 6 weapons or what, there are AI humans you know, they don’t carry around bunches of weapons, a simple 3 slot maybe. You can look at how the Enemy works and sit and wonder, what makes them so different. What do you think of a Cleric right out of RPGs some sort of Boon abilities?
    In fact I think I am highlighting the racial and mystical distinction, I think a horse is quite different from a warg, preferred terminology, doesn’t have its own attack, instead maybe a height advantage +1 height. That’s distinctive. I think very friendly with the lore I’ve seen the devs put out, the humans “guard their own” with either, the pairing up of battle brothers or whatever they tend to do with Temples? Or active Monks?
    Maybe Goblins can be paired in their “hordes” without as much bonus defensively as what humans get, from being with a shield brother. 24 humans struggling against 9 goblins seems wrong.

    Also, “keeping up with the AI”, I sure think putting my men into the AI’s command would smooth out the slow parts of battles for me. Like the WarDogs can do just fine with an AI. Or, another fix on this 12 limit, AI’s above 12? Maybe experienced, leveled up commanders can recruit a Retainer in the Item slot like war dogs, harking back to the huscarl/lord relationship I mentioned in the Pairing mechanic.

    Avatar photoMeeky

    This is what we call “asymmetrical gameplay,” and frankly I think the present use of magic is a good thing. The enemy has mages and we do not. This provides us with a strategic obstacle – and we need those obstacles because the AI is limited in what it can do whereas we, as players, have a whole wealth of strategies we can bring to the table.

    Now, the devs HAVE mentioned there being legendary items in our future, like the Fangshire helm you can start the game with right now. Some of these may make a Battle Brother seem almost magical in his own right. I dunno. However, we’re not going to be seeing human wizards fighting goblin shamans any time soon, and that’s a good thing.

    Note how a lot of stories of yore had evil witches and warlocks but very few good wizards. In Arthurian lore, Merlin was kind of the exception rather than the rule, and he wasn’t a good guy. If we stick with those guns, we get a world in which we ought NOT get wizards, but instead should fight them, and we get a world where we can paint this fantasy Germany as a traditional fantasy setting with a dark, bleak stroke of paint.

    The idea, really, is that if you want there to be a beacon of hope in this setting, you have to be that beacon with what resources you have available. The current mechanics fit that pretty well. You can be as nasty as you like, but in the end you have to fight evil with steel. Evil doesn’t play by the rules and can do whatever it wants. Figure out how to make it work and your band of mercenaries becomes a band of heroes.

    Avatar photoMiaphysites

    Now look I’m going to change the title pretty soon , you guys are too stuck on being humans. Our magic beats their magic is the battlecry of the centuries, they’re going to do something with the temples, we’re going to believe in things. They believe God influences the present world around them, in most medieval times. Not to get in eucharist or transubstantiation debates. Teutonic knights were terrifying to an enemy or battle monks encouraged the frontline? What about greek fire, scare tactics, caste the holy water. like 4/5ths of this whole thing is about goblins on wolves , should try skimming. Don’t tell me goblins now have Invented animal husbandry and animal taming or some junk like that. Look at them work better together than my battle brothers. It could keep some of the lower, common, easily paired classes and recruits in the competition as fodder, depending on if we’re talking about the item slot retainer idea, and a vertical relationship like that, or a horizontal relationship between paired battle brothers. Show me a programmer that doesn’t like to reuse code by the way, “unique races”. They could get monk or cleric to do revives on battle brothers like necromancer and their zombies. Or maybe just save them for after the battle, I know that’s enough of a motivator to have one. I get a real strong need to recycle the looted armors and equipments though, basically everything here. Equip some mobs that go in with you.

    Avatar photoSky

    Just as You, I can’t know what the devs are up to. I shared what I took in about the magical component about the game from the forums and the directions the devs were vektoring the discussions. About the overall feel they trying to give the world.

    The 6 weapons well your party might be carrying 5 weapons each (6 would assume the offhand could be holding a weapon and it can’t) others don’t. I have general purpose jack of all trades with 5 weapons but I have guys with 2-3 weapons aswell, most of my men always were non 5 sloted ones. Not all the people have to get the pocket perk you know, and it is not needed in many circumstances. The weapon argument is a pure player choise one and has not much to do with the AI tactics. All the humans have one of the possible backgrounds be it player or AI, they use the same skill trees. While other races do not.

    There will be no horses unfortunately, it’s in the FAQ. Seems like it was too unconvinient game mechanic wise or whatever other reason.

    To have clerics you need a diety, there is none yet. There is zero accent on any kind of diety other than description of the houses. The temple well it well might be just to remove curses, getting blessings, or things like that. Again do not confuse world filler things and things a player has access to. Being able to go to the temple does not mean you getting a cleric unit with a 4th magical perk tree. There are towns but you can not own one. There are noble houses but you can not become one. I’m saying if the devs said no then it has been always a no, when they say they will see and try then it might come along or be like the horses.

    Goblins, the devs said they will look into it, tho I know not why, already posted several advices how to deal with them. You only struggle if you wish to do so. Attack at night and it will be 80% easier from the get go. I personally like that, to have enemies that are weaker at night while other are harder.

    Limit of 12, it was said by the devs that the 12 is the current battle limit. The actual troop size you could go around with would be higher so you can swap hirelings into reserve for them to heal or repair. Now since with the last update the enemy count did grow quite much I think and agree with you that 12 is not enought for an active rooster. On the other hand it is a balance issue both management wise, game flow scaling wise, tactical combat wise and turn lenght wise. There is an interesting building, the veterans hall there aswell.

    Our comprehension of the game is purely subjective, and so are the thoughts that we write down. You should not be offended when someone elses opinion does not match yours, it is natural. The fact that other share their thoughts about something you brought up means that they are interested in the said theme aswell. My favorite characters in most of the games are mages and priests. Be that now PC games or earlier pen n papper. Just as You I’d like to see magic in BB too but that will be up to modders aswell.

    Not everything we would like will be in the game and most definitely not the way we’d vision it. It is the dev teams game, their vision, their world. They did prove that they know what they doing, that they do listen to feedback and make compromises, that they making the game just as much for the players as for themselves both artwise and businesswise.

    Avatar photoMiaphysites

    We’re both guessing at the dev gameworld sure ,and, good point about the FAQ on horses, I do note the extra addition of “probably”. You know half the starter parties are all Monks already right? I mean really. Dedicated to the great spaghetti monster. Ya I’ve been talking about turnbased combat all day, of course 12 is a good limit since 1995 on what you want to click on in a turn. I like the idea that, you incidentally threw in there, like a reserve roster? I wasn’t aware they can have more than 12 enemies, I guess if you got in a 3-way battle I knew that. No I’m just regretting mentioning the necromancer I guess, ok only the AI humans get a necromancer because. God forbid some Suggestions, ya. I keep visualizing that guy on the main menu, with the pike and the sword and a shield?? With, also a quiver , and a crossbow, and the ability to switch instantly. Its like ok… stick this in my cornhole, pull a crossbow off my back ,put the shield on my back, hope that’s not blocking my sword. I remember Pavise Crossbowmen thinking, a shield, a sword, and a crossbow, that’s something. Nord archers come to mind, bow, shield even while shooting, sword. And I don’t know , those are the versatile heavy loaded ones I know of? Whats the point of Paper, Rock, Scissors tactics, one small perk at level 2, everybody is saying it, everybody is now the universal role-filler. All of this still on “keeping up with the AI” kind of, some things are strange in why we’re different from the AI? At least a few things.

    Avatar photoSky

    You seem to be all over the place. I suggest you read the game description and the faq for starters to see the vision behind the game and the world by the dev team. It is not about being against your suggestions but helping you to see why they won’t fit in the game since they are soo far away from the current setting.

    There is no rock papper scissor, there is no one perk that wins the game. Never was and never will be. There are tactics and perk-background-equip symbiosis that you can use to your advantage in your battle play.

    Your party might have been monks, mine never was. You also seem to confuse reality with gameplay mechanics. You can RP anyhow you want, want it to be super realistic, don’t use the pocket perk or don’t equip so much stuff.

    You want to know how a human is different from an AI with limited algorithms and scripts? In BB each of the factions each of the enemy type or rather party has its own tactical style that it will go for. Zs will just swarm you without remorse, basically jumping on your pikes relentlesly till all are dead. That is how they are programmed to. You as a human, as the leader of your mercanaries have to understand that it is not a valid tactik for you, I hope, and use different means and formations, manouvers, baits to win the fights. You can make same example for all the other factions there. The difference is that YOU have a choise of how to fight the enemy while theirs is predetermined.

    Avatar photoMiaphysites

    This is like the dictionary for Condescension with your face on it, explain basic things no one is misunderstanding. I read a Strategy Guide the only one they got on steam, and probably THREE other testimonials, ya JUST get the bags & belts on EVERY guy , just have them able to use EVERY weapon like a longbow alone wasn’t a life of training. Hey we can call a magic pixie stick a dagger but it really shoots fairie dust now we’re starting to enter High fantasy I guess. Well its an actual background the Monks as plentiful as fishermen and I’m not trying to over emphasize some minor contradiction between that and you saying there was No hint of Any Deities Whatsoever. On your Rock Paper Scissor paragraph, its not crystal clear you’re describing Rock Paper Scissor, that’s where all weapons are designed, or some other element is designed, to be best to defeat a counterpart while being best defeated by a 3rd counterpart, its pretty weak right now, here comes a goblin/bandit/orc with a sword/bow/net guess ill do what I always do which is, crossbow spam , instant switch sword/shield and pike it to death like the first steam guide said to do. I don’t want to throw Total War into everything, I don’t even know if its true, I Like that pikes would have Bonus damage to mounted units, I Like that some units are no good for melee, I Like the 2-handers get a charge, I Like the shield wall they got right now. I Guess I disagree, it does seem like I Wouldn’t want to have gone into some of these directions where, I don’t get to fire a crossbow and hit something with a pike on the same turn.

    Avatar photokingslomein

    I’m fine with not having magic. My brothers still do just fine. The dev’s are doing great and I hope they keep it up!

    Avatar photoMiaphysites

    Technically that’s not a suggestion, watch out they might delete your post, nice to meet you. You know what I just noticed, hey look at all that working Drop-Stuff-On-The-Ground mechanics they got! Have you ever used that?! Just ctrl right click, drop your pike on the ground like a real pikeman, get it later. There’s a Ground Pickup window like real pros, you’d never see or use it, they got all the 5 slots and stuff. I know a lot of games would Emphasize and Use this, pick up your down battle brother take him with you, lay down equipment when you need it, its still showing up with the loot I think at the end of the battle. Maybe stake traps!

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