Utility Skill Tree Discussion

[Sarissofoi]

The system before was not bad.
Half cost fatigue for items in bags – none with perk.
4 AP for switching item – none with perk.
It was great for switching empty quiver for full or taking spare weapon when your main break.
It work great.
Of course there was abuse:
-stay in close combat with 1h and shield then switch to zwaihander hit and switch again for defense.
How to fix it?
Make impossible to switch weapon you use in this turn.
Simple.
The only thing that can be a downside is a archer who shoot a last arrow and want to prepare for melee.
So make it impossible to switch melee weapon used in this turn.
Now the guy who kill enemy who stand near him and prevent him from shooting can’t grab a bow(or crossbow, or javelin) and shoot in the same turn.
Damn.
No easy way to fix it!? Why gods, why?!

[Sky]

The ap cost of 2 per item as the quick hands has now makes the skill useless absolutely. The scenarios in which it could be useful are too rare to take this perk. The simpliest way is to limit it’s use to one per turn for no ap and the secound per turn for 2 ap while all other for 4 ap as without the skill. This way even 2h users will be able to switch freely to a weapon OR shield for free while paying 2ap for the other hand item. It is fast to draw one thing but slower to draw two items while in fight(since you used the speed argument for the facing of characters). Maybe you can solve it with in game mechanics by adding an active quick hand part that is a one per turn free use buff or like dodge once a battle till triggered(less powerful but still ok), while the core perk remains with half cost.

As it stands now, taunt and shield bash are pretty unfunctional, quick hands too, student is a nice trade off skill for early n midgame, while pathfinder and bags are definetely more worth than the others since they benefit from start and even more to the end when the fatigue is gold and ap with fast moving can change a battle.

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[Malthus]

GOD wrote:

Yeah, but I assumed you meant that you couldn’t switch back because the switching itself was disallowed, not because you ran out AP. As I said, I don’t actually use Quick Hands all that much, so I assumed it was just an old change until I actually used it for a bit again.

Running out of AP was -> Automatically ending the turn was the only “problem” for the whole switching action from the beginning. I don´t see this as a real problem because I didn´t want that switching abuse to work in the first place.

Running out of AP so not being able to switch back is an “issue” now. But this is good as I said before.

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[GOD]

The quick switching seems to have not been the intended use of the perk. That makes sense and it’s an appropriate nerf then. It doesn’t seem to add much to your adaptability now, though. Although I could be overlooking something. How do you guys use it?

Taunt I can see having some use that we haven’t seen yet, like it is with Fortified Mind. I’m cautious about recommending a buff, since it has the potential to be very powerful for a tier 1 perk.

Shield Bash I’m having trouble picturing as gaining a niche. The slight damage increase is simple not worth a perk point. The damage would only matter if the enemy is close to dying, in which case you might as well just hit them. Stun is still the most fitting thematically, but as noted before that might make it too powerful and infringe on other means of stunning. It would probably make it a must-have for shield users.
Some ideas:

– Give it stun. Make it a defence tier 2 perk that replaces of Nine Lives. Make Nine Lives an utility tier 1 perk. Important to note that I’ve personally never had Nine Lives make a difference when it actually triggered, so I’m not sure if it’s too powerful for tier 1.
– Give it an accuracy bonus so that you can use shield bash more reliably. Have it do a bit more damage.
– Replace it with another perk

[Malthus]

What made me not choose the shieldbash perk was, that it may give you a little bit of damage but at the same time the description says it builds up 10 more fatique.

Description: The knock back skill now also inflicts 10 – 25 damage (50% vs armor) and 10 fatique in addition to its normal effect.

So it does not really sound much like an improvement.

Right now I just tested it against undeads. I saw that it costs the same fatique as without the perk. So I now assume the 10 fatique are added to the enemy? So the description is a bit misleading I guess atleast for me.

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Soar]

Battle Flow: I’ve been playing one-character challenges and I think this perk is probably the most important reason why they’re at all viable. I don’t think it’s overpowered in regular play, since having multiple Battle Brothers means the fatigue gets spread out over more people, and Rally the Troops fulfills the same need when you have a company. Might make for an extremely powerful combo with Perfect Focus, though.

Sky wrote:

The ap cost of 2 per item as the quick hands has now makes the skill useless absolutely. The scenarios in which it could be useful are too rare to take this perk. The simpliest way is to limit it’s use to one per turn for no ap and the secound per turn for 2 ap while all other for 4 ap as without the skill. This way even 2h users will be able to switch freely to a weapon OR shield for free while paying 2ap for the other hand item.

I disagree, it’s still useful to 2-handed-weapon users – it’s just that they can only have the shield up after attacking every other round, as opposed to every round as before the change or with your suggestion. It also enables an archer to draw both a melee weapon and a shield and still attack, use an ability, or move during a single turn.

If you combine it with Bags and Belts, you can carry 4 crossbows (plus a melee weapon) and fire off 4 bolts in 2 rounds. If you don’t have Quick Hands you can still fire 3, but Quick Hands also enables you to switch to and load an unloaded crossbow in a single turn so you can perform the technique again later in the battle, if you happen to have a turn where you don’t have a decent shot. Those crossbows can also be fired in melee range if necessary, unlike bows. Before the change, you could’ve fired all 4 bolts in a single turn.

[Sky]

Indeed the shield bash and taunt situation will have to be resolved eventually. Maybe tweaking them a bit and moving around. Shield bash could be made t2 in def instead of 9lives(had not it triggered once) or instead of fortified mind. Or just simply remove them alltogether and get some other utility perks up.
Sure you won’t be able to do the “standart tank” thing without taunt, but i’m realy not sure if it’s needed at all. The few times I used taunt made no visible difference, so just dropped it and all is very fine without it.
The problem is that at this moment there are 2 stronger perks (bags and path) 1 medium (student) and 3 useless compared to the others. Now if the strong ones (relatively strong) will get nerfed then the whole utility tree will fall. There will be less reason to go there, even tho I personally find it quite nice especially the t2 t3 perks. And no, don’t think that “rally” perk makes them all invalid instead as of now it seems to be a strong addition to the t2 skillset. And to me the utility is overall still better than the def tree while being around the same or not much weaker than the offense. But that’s how I play, having some pure damagers and some long combat types works out agains all the enemies while had only use for 2 t2 def skills and 2-3 t1.

Soar wrote:

I disagree, it’s still useful to 2-handed-weapon users – it’s just that they can only have the shield up after attacking every other round, as opposed to every round as before the change or with your suggestion. It also enables an archer to draw both a melee weapon and a shield and still attack, use an ability, or move during a single turn.

Starting with a 2h, lets say the enemy closes in, my turn. If I hit with the 2h I can switch to the shield after(6+2). But my next turn I will be able only switch back to 2h and hit(2+6). Not being able to switch back to the shield. That makes you shielded every other round if for some insane reason you decide to cycle through. But yes as is it allows archers to switch to 1h and shield and do an 5ap worth of action. The only one who benefits atm from this skill are archers. Now it’s not hard at all avoid situations when the enemy closes in with an archer. Making them extremely rare. Making the whole skill quite useless. You could say “Hey the broken weapon switch is still cool” and you wouldn’t be wrong. Unfortunately it is even more rare that BOTH weapon and the shield breaks at the same turn, and even then the difference(between skill and no skill) is only one action. It’s hardly arguable that a battle will usually depend on that exact one action. All these things are situation specific. Making the skill rare sitiational only. You gain more by chosing almost any other skill, this one is a waste. Still yes, it was owerpowered. In my opinion a balance still has to be found.

Soar wrote:

If you combine it with Bags and Belts, you can carry 4 crossbows (plus a melee weapon) and fire off 4 bolts in 2 rounds. If you don’t have Quick Hands you can still fire 3, but Quick Hands also enables you to switch to and load an unloaded crossbow in a single turn so you can perform the technique again later in the battle, if you happen to have a turn where you don’t have a decent shot. Those crossbows can also be fired in melee range if necessary, unlike bows. Before the change, you could’ve fired all 4 bolts in a single turn.

That is a walid point up till you can fire 4 xbow in 2 turns. To reload an xbow you still need 7 points. So after the first barrage you will need 4 rounds to reload all and be able to shot again. You will not do that. No one will. It is way simplier to fight with only one after the initial shots.
And yes before you could fire up to 4 xbows in the very first round, and again I don’t say it is ok. Even so it is not that big of a difference considering it is a once per battle barrage.
Why would it work as a free swap per turn and after that all others for 2? Because this way the xbow shot and switch to melee, the javelin throw and switch, the billhook switch and hit become valid again. Well not so much the hook one it still can be done. But now the javelins that I was using constantly with all chars having quick hands and the xbow shot even if I did only one are no more a valuable tactic. With the change a very nice mechanic of the game got destroyed. Why would it become valuable again if you will have to pay for a 1h and shield still 2ap? Easy, for the specific builds with 2h or only a 1h light assaults. There is nothing better than the light assaults circling around throwing javelins then switch to their primary and hit the enemy in the back.
You will be able to shot 3xbows the first turn yeah, then one more and switch to 1h and shield. You will still need 7ap to reload, and you still will use this barrage tactic once per battle. Now just to mention, no one is forcing you to use it at all, I don’t use it for example just because don’t like it. But I do use the one xbow or javelin and then swtich with my shieldwall dudes. Still in my eyes it is way less a problem than not being able to use nice game mechanics that proven to work and be emersive. Even if you look at the history, it is not uncommon for mercenaries use the shot xbows till the enemy aproaches into melee.
Unfortunately making all swaps cost 1ap will not work. It will result in same as it was before the nerf.

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[madmansam]

GOD wrote:

Shield Bash I’m having trouble picturing as gaining a niche. The slight damage increase is simple not worth a perk point. The damage would only matter if the enemy is close to dying, in which case you might as well just hit them. Stun is still the most fitting thematically, but as noted before that might make it too powerful and infringe on other means of stunning. It would probably make it a must-have for shield users.
Some ideas:

– Give it stun. Make it a defence tier 2 perk that replaces of Nine Lives. Make Nine Lives an utility tier 1 perk. Important to note that I’ve personally never had Nine Lives make a difference when it actually triggered, so I’m not sure if it’s too powerful for tier 1.
– Give it an accuracy bonus so that you can use shield bash more reliably. Have it do a bit more damage.
– Replace it with another perk

Shield bashing has a built in accuracy bonus of +25 over standard attacks. If you take the perk, shield bash becomes a high accuracy attack good for finishing off enemies already gravely wounded .

I’d suggest rather than stunning the target, the target gets a -10 reduction to their melee offense and defense for a turn to represent being off balance.

[Sky]

madmansam wrote:

I’d suggest rather than stunning the target, the target gets a -10 reduction to their melee offense and defense for a turn to represent being off balance.

Now this is a good solution. Doing a debuff on enemy for their stats while doing small damage and stamina damage. Perhaps a debuff on everything is the best. Reducing their melee and range atk and def, demoralizing and maybe even taking few ap off. Perhaps reducing damage or improving damage taking and chance of head hit. A mix of all or some of stats could be enought to make this skill work.

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[Soar]

Sky wrote:

Soar wrote:

I disagree, it’s still useful to 2-handed-weapon users – it’s just that they can only have the shield up after attacking every other round, as opposed to every round as before the change or with your suggestion. It also enables an archer to draw both a melee weapon and a shield and still attack, use an ability, or move during a single turn.

Starting with a 2h, lets say the enemy closes in, my turn. If I hit with the 2h I can switch to the shield after(6+2). But my next turn I will be able only switch back to 2h and hit(2+6). Not being able to switch back to the shield. That makes you shielded every other round if for some insane reason you decide to cycle through.

You get up to +20 to defense (depending on shield) every other turn. The only things you lose by leaving your weapon hand empty at the end of your turn as a two-handed-weapon user are potential damage against any enemies that try to leave your zone-of-control and the ability to move one step before performing a two-handed-weapon attack on your next turn, but if needed, you’re still able to draw an one-handed weapon, move one step and attack. I don’t see the problem.

That is a walid point up till you can fire 4 xbow in 2 turns. To reload an xbow you still need 7 points. So after the first barrage you will need 4 rounds to reload all and be able to shot again. You will not do that. No one will. It is way simplier to fight with only one after the initial shots.

Quick Hands gives you the option to spend any turns where you don’t have an opportunity for a good shot reloading a spare crossbow instead, as I wrote, allowing you to potentially fire two times rather than once when you do have the opportunity. Situational, but it is another reason why it might be useful for a ranged character.

[Sky]

Soar wrote:

Quick Hands gives you the option to spend any turns where you don’t have an opportunity for a good shot reloading a spare crossbow instead,

Nothing changed, you still can do that as you could do it before. Neither is there anything wrong with it.
You don’t see the problem because you looking the other way.
All you need to do is pay attention when you read instead simply looking for an argument.

Sky wrote:

And yes before you could fire up to 4 xbows in the very first round, and again I don’t say it is ok. Even so it is not that big of a difference considering it is a once per battle barrage.
Why would it work as a free swap per turn and after that all others for 2? Because this way the xbow shot and switch to melee, the javelin throw and switch, the billhook switch and hit become valid again. Well not so much the hook one it still can be done. But now the javelins that I was using constantly with all chars having quick hands and the xbow shot even if I did only one are no more a valuable tactic. With the change a very nice mechanic of the game got destroyed. Why would it become valuable again if you will have to pay for a 1h and shield still 2ap? Easy, for the specific builds with 2h or only a 1h light assaults. There is nothing better than the light assaults circling around throwing javelins then switch to their primary and hit the enemy in the back.
Making the whole skill quite useless. You could say “Hey the broken weapon switch is still cool” and you wouldn’t be wrong. Unfortunately it is even more rare that BOTH weapon and the shield breaks at the same turn, and even then the difference(between skill and no skill) is only one action. It’s hardly arguable that a battle will usually depend on that exact one action. All these things are situation specific. Making the skill rare sitiational only. You gain more by chosing almost any other skill, this one is a waste. Still yes, it was owerpowered. In my opinion a balance still has to be found.

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[GOD]

Part of what makes it feel weird is that Quick Hands seems like a perk whose theme is adaptability, but instead it seems more like a perk useful in specific situations, like the repeating crossbow. How about making only the first swap free and taking away the AP reduction? So the first swap in a round is free, but all the ones after that take the full 4 AP?

Malthus wrote:

What made me not choose the shieldbash perk was, that it may give you a little bit of damage but at the same time the description says it builds up 10 more fatique.
Description: The knock back skill now also inflicts 10 – 25 damage (50% vs armor) and 10 fatique in addition to its normal effect.
So it does not really sound much like an improvement.
Right now I just tested it against undeads. I saw that it costs the same fatique as without the perk. So I now assume the 10 fatique are added to the enemy? So the description is a bit misleading I guess atleast for me.

Yup. It adds 10 fatigue damage to your attack.

madmansam wrote:

Shield bashing has a built in accuracy bonus of +25 over standard attacks. If you take the perk, shield bash becomes a high accuracy attack good for finishing off enemies already gravely wounded .
I’d suggest rather than stunning the target, the target gets a -10 reduction to their melee offense and defense for a turn to represent being off balance.

I’m suggesting putting an accuracy bonus on top of that of say 15 or 20%. You’re right though that you could use it as a highly accurate finishing move. Not exactly the point of the buff, so it’s probably a good idea to remove the damage modifier then.

[Sky]

GOD wrote:

Part of what makes it feel weird is that Quick Hands seems like a perk whose theme is adaptability, but instead it seems more like a perk useful in specific situations, like the repeating crossbow. How about making only the first swap free and taking away the AP reduction? So the first swap in a round is free, but all the ones after that take the full 4 AP?

That exactly how it’s done in the last update. And it works fine! It is usable again and not overpowered. This last update had the terrain lvl option aswell, huh it’s so much easier to play thank you! Now waiting for the world to revive again tho it will take a lot time for my testing save.

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[GOD]

Seriously? Goddamn I’m good.

EDIT: You’re right. First action free, then 4 AP. Taunt has also been made more effective.

[Sky]

Yep, an other mind reader I see.

Lots of nice things in update as usual.

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