Topic: Combat feedback (angry and annoyed)

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  • #13409
    KingPoe
    Participant

    Long time player of this game, I want it to succeed and become great.
    I am angry and sad at the state of the game, so I will give my honest and BLUNT feedback to try and get the dev’s to see the problems.

    WARNING THIS IS GOING TO BE AN ANGRY FEEDBACK POST

    combat is now infuriating.
    Its not fun to fight any kind of ranged enemy now.

    Cross bows are the main offender, just tooo OVERPOWERED… you can move and shoot in the same turn??? and at melee range as well? Why not just make them AUTO HIT aswell.. we can all just use crossbow for everything from now on, because when I do that, I win every fight EASILY.

    How come the enemy can deploy their men anywhere on the map in very good positions but all my men are randomly placed? Surrounded even. 2 turns to get into any kind of formation even. No commander would allow a battle to being like this.. unless ambushed.. which does not happen when you are the engaging party.

    Give us squad deployment phase, this is very frustrating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Why does AI chose to kill itself to make sure it kills one of my men???? NO-ONE does this in real combat, its dumb as hell. “Oh, I am in trouble here.. should I shield and go defensive?? NO! I will turn around and hit someone else who I am not even fighting instead…” JUST NO

    Ranged enemy AI….. “I will move away if they come towards me, then I will move forwards again if they don’t follow me…” at INFINITE…endless chase dance. If as the player, you follow, you take fire every turn and get to them out of stamina and on low life. If you don’t follow, the game just repeats and you waste time………no play loops please, its bad game design.

    5 guys hitting ONE enemy from different sides…. does he get a defence penalty for being attacked or surrounded? Hell NO, he dodges/parrys all of them….THIS IS NOT ACCURATE to real combat even just 3 vs 1 you can no longer defend most attacks.

    the new armour and damage system is fine, well done on this.

    Improve the game.
    There has to be the following changes:

    DEFENCE PENALTY or HIT BONUS for EVERY ADDITIONAL ATTACK FROM A DIFFERENT Character against the same enemy.

    Cross bow CANNOT be fired after moving and may not be reloaded in melee combat.

    MASSIVE ACCURACY penalty for anyone who tried to use ranged weapons after moving at all, on the same turn (yes javlins, hand axe..everything).

    No fatigue cost for moving if not leaving or entering melee combat that turn.. so you can chase with gaining fatigue..because otherwise chase dance is game breaking.

    Difficulty rating for enemy your mission is putting you against….. its NOT FUN to take a mission and then find the enemy is 5/6 levels higher than you with swap and stuff… I would not take this mission if i knew. All your doing is FORCING me to save-scum your game to make it playable.

    as you can gather, I’m not happy -annoyed even -mad even. These are BASIC mechanics that should have been in by now.

    Please for love of all that is a dead Gobbo, look into these points and make changes. Soo much work has been put into this game that these changes are small in comparison but are ruining everything.

    KP

    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    #13413
    Meeky
    Participant

    As another long-time player, I’ll contend some of these points but also agree with one.

    Cross bows are the main offender, just tooo OVERPOWERED… you can move and shoot in the same turn??? and at melee range as well? Why not just make them AUTO HIT aswell.. we can all just use crossbow for everything from now on, because when I do that, I win every fight EASILY.

    Well, crossbows are kind of really good, yeah, but they’re not game breaking. They’ve got a high bonus to hit (which fades the more distant the enemy is) and a nice bit of armor penetration. That’s their specialty historically, too: punching through armor and killing a dude with relatively little training required.

    You can fire crossbows in melee range, yes. You cannot, however, reload them there. So, you can fire a shot from face distance, then swap to another weapon and start pounding.

    You can move 3 spaces and fire with a crossbow, or you can move 2 spaces and fire with a bow. Both weapons have “move and fire” options. Reloading takes 6 AP, however, so don’t expect to move far if you’re out of range after reloading (1 space is all you can move after reloading).

    I’d say the crossbow is stronger, but the bow remains very useful for dealing with lightly armored opponents. Nothing mops up a crowd of injured ghouls quite like a hail of arrows.

    How come the enemy can deploy their men anywhere on the map in very good positions but all my men are randomly placed? Give us squad deployment phase, this is very frustrating!

    This IS something that needs to be changed, and I believe it’s on a to-do list for the devs. One day at a time, though. One day at a time.

    But yes, I hope this change comes sooner than later.

    Why does AI chose to kill itself to make sure it kills one of my men???? NO-ONE does this in real combat, its dumb as hell. “Oh, I am in trouble here.. should I shield and go defensive?? NO! I will turn around and hit someone else who I am not even fighting instead…” JUST NO

    Ranged enemy AI….. “I will move away if they come towards me, then I will move forwards again if they don’t follow me…” at INFINITE…endless chase dance. If as the player, you follow, you take fire every turn and get to them out of stamina and on low life. If you don’t follow, the game just repeats and you waste time………no play loops please, its bad game design.

    I’ll be honest: neither of these scenarios seems like bad design to me.

    The former situation actually WOULD happen in a real fight. You don’t always think clearly in a fight. Once you get your head knocked around a little and have bled, you sometimes resort to your instincts, which includes sticking the other guy with the pointy end. Not only that, but it forces the player to think about worst case scenarios. “If the enemy attacks, I COULD lose a guy. I need to either be able to wipe out the enemy REALLY QUICKLY or have defensive specialists ready to play crowd control.” THIS is the sort of thinking encouraged by having AI that lashes out.

    There are solutions to fighting ranged enemies, too. Buy wardogs if they annoy you that much. Personally, I try to outshoot them or let them run away. Archers typically don’t have the best gear anyway. Another option is to break through the enemy’s shield wall and send someone into the archer line in the same turn. You can typically get a couple archers caught off-guard that way.

    5 guys hitting ONE enemy from different sides…. does he get a defence penalty for being attacked or surrounded? Hell NO, he dodges/parrys all of them….THIS IS NOT ACCURATE to real combat even just 3 vs 1 you can no longer defend most attacks.

    Actually, there IS a penalty for being surrounded by lots of guys. It’s called “Overwhelmed.” It makes the character who is overwhelmed less likely to avoid hits, meaning even the most nimble of warriors can potentially be defeated by a large enough crowd.

    The game would be a lot worse if Overwhelmed didn’t exist, but it does. Next time you’re about to attack someone while they’re surrounded, select the attack ability you want to use, however the mouse over the enemy, and wait for the data on the enemy’s HP/armor/fatigue to come up. You’ll see a modifier called “Overwhelmed” with a green + by it. That means he’s taking penalties to defending himself thanks to being surrounded. (I think you need… 4+ guys for this modifier, though? I forget.)

    As for some of the proposed changes…

    Cross bow CANNOT be fired after moving and may not be reloaded in melee combat.

    MASSIVE ACCURACY penalty for anyone who tried to use ranged weapons after moving at all, on the same turn (yes javlins, hand axe..everything).

    Crossbows already can’t be reloaded in melee combat. It SHOULD be able to be fired after moving because firing a crossbow is really easy. You point, you aim like with a gun almost, then shoot. Bam.

    Throwing weapons already kind’a suck. Crossbows… I covered that. Quick shot already is way less accurate than Aimed Shot. I see no issue.

    No fatigue cost for moving if not leaving or entering melee combat that turn.. so you can chase with gaining fatigue..because otherwise chase dance is game breaking.

    You regain fatigue every turn. Unless you’re moving through awful terrain (swamp, elevation changes, forest) you’ll actually decrease in fatigue as you charge across the map. If fighting in difficult terrain… Dude, it’s DIFFICULT TERRAIN. It’s working as intended.

    And again, there are already solutions to the chase. Out-shoot the archers, releasing wardogs on ’em, chasing them with a guy that has Pathfinder (works well in difficult terrain)… Yeah, it’s kind of annoying; but they also will actually flee the field once their side has been obliterated. The only possible exception I can think of to this rule are skeleton archers.

    Difficulty rating for enemy your mission is putting you against….. its NOT FUN to take a mission and then find the enemy is 5/6 levels higher than you with swap and stuff… I would not take this mission if i knew. All your doing is FORCING me to save-scum your game to make it playable.

    I kind of agree, yet then again I kind of… I dunno. See, I can see the merit of your complaint; you sometimes get contracts that are just gonna be too difficult for you to complete. But you have the option of running to the edge of the map and then hitting the retreat button and taking no losses. You can often also see how big the enemy army is before you engage (not always true), and you can break contracts that are gonna be too hard to complete.

    I’ll do another ironman run before I dismiss this complaint. You’re not the first to say this.

    #13415
    Danubian
    Participant

    What i hate is when 4 of my crossbowmen miss 78% hit 4 times in a row – then 2 enemy guys put 2 bolts into 2 of my guys like nothing.

    But what can you do? Sometimes you kill them with 1 bolt, sometimes you dont.

    In any case if youre planning on farming bandits youll need dedicated anti crossbowmen, and even then, 99% of the time, because of wonderful random placement, youll still have to take at least 1 turn of worth of their shots. You best defense is to level up and get better gear.

    #13416
    RusBear
    Participant

    First of all, I would like to say that if the game (even if its deficiencies) cause such strong emotions – it is said that the game is not bad :) For example, I simply delete the bad games – not even bothering to find out if she has a forum – they do not interest me at all. I agree completely on this:
    you do not have a tactical arrangement in the battle and the fact that you can not appreciate the strength and the enemy and such – to return the deposit to the employer if you know you that the enemy can not afford – It would be fair and without loss of reputation .
    Personally, from my own experience what I do not like – it is too strong influence of random to the game. I hope that the upcoming patch with a tactical map and alteration reference system of perks and possible level up mercenaries can partially remedy this situation. While in the early stages of the game especially in high difficulty whole game boils down to how much you’re lucky – if your mercenary gets 4 times with a chance 40 and the enemy is not – you done and the winner, but if you miss six times with 70% at the enemy with 1 hp – you start a new company. There is something wrong or the system or % that we show :).
    To be fair – a team of three men and one composer has done a great game – this is not even dreamed of AAA companies with an big advertising budget. We should be very grateful to them. But in what direction will develop the game further – it is completely up to them. This game can become a masterpiece.

    #13417
    KingPoe
    Participant

    thank you to everyone who replied. I have calmed down alot now, I was very mad earlier.

    Sorry for the way I phrased a lot of my complaints, it was very harsh.

    I do love 90% of this game, its just SO FRUSTRATING to see small things in it cause such large disruption to otherwise amasing game play.

    I did not forget about war dogs, its just they tend to get shot and die before they can catch the archer/bolter.

    One thing I forgot to mention is the 12 man squad limit….. WHY???? I am fighting armies of ~30 men, not even including resurrected enemies who come back. Why can I not hire more than 12 ??? its just not realistic.

    Things I would love to see in this game:
    Castle or stronghold assault missions inside buildings ect.
    The ability to buy horses to mount and carts to pull extra loot and storage.
    Custom armour colours and insignia.
    Voiced dialog from my men in-game, just like the orcs do.
    Enchantment slots for weapons and armour.
    Accessory slots for rings/necklaces and bracelets for the brother for mini perks :D

    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    #13419
    Holy.Death
    Participant

    DEFENCE PENALTY or HIT BONUS for EVERY ADDITIONAL ATTACK FROM A DIFFERENT Character against the same enemy.

    Isn’t it already in the game, called the Overwhelm Bonus…?

    Cross bow CANNOT be fired after moving and may not be reloaded in melee combat.

    You can’t reload a crossbow in melee combat.

    MASSIVE ACCURACY penalty for anyone who tried to use ranged weapons after moving at all, on the same turn (yes javlins, hand axe..everything).

    That’s an interesting suggestion. Although I’d settle for a minor penalty past certain distance.

    #13424
    Binkus
    Participant

    Meeky posts +1

    I would also like to say a formation option for your brothers instead of a line would be on my wish list having them appear in one long line is getting stupid

    combat is always the players as the defender (unless you are a goblin, then you can sit there and get butchered all you like), atleast some minimal formation settings would be nice two rows, wedge, square something other than a line, it would make it far more interesting

    Crossbows are in no way as bad as you think, they were back then the assault rifle of weapons and come across as deadly as they do for a reason, i think they have got them spot on.

    the game is frustrating op think you have equal amounts of nerd rage than i do sometimes, last night my heavily armed gang got mugged by goblins while camping, the last running goblin archer made a run for it, i pinned him down with an advanced brother, the thing knifed my full health heavily armoured guy in one round to make a run for it off the map, this was the most annoying thing, it was like my guy lifted his shirt and said hit here, this same brother took on 4 or 5 orcs and survived only to be shanked my some green midget on the run

    also it anyone has not encountered mercenaries just wait.. oh look at that guy he claims to be a sword master… oh oh dear there goes another brother

    #13429
    KingPoe
    Participant

    As you say Binkus, sometimes things happen that are too unlikely and just not acceptable in a game that is meant to be strategy based.

    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    #13447
    kingslomein
    Participant

    Meeky Post +1 as well.

    I have almost no problem with most of this. I’ve gotten very good at determining what contracts I finish and and can’t finish. I have only once, had to cancel a contract. And the very nature of this game is going to have 2 types of play, save scumming. Or Ironman’ing. Everyone is going to play the way they want.

    P.s. I’ve been having a great time with throwing weapons. The core of my shield wall is made up of Witch Hunters (one town had 3 of them for hire!) They have good melee and ranged attack. Quick hands obviously. Anything without a shield dies before it get’s to make contact. Usually.

    #13448
    Ulrich
    Participant

    Meeky posts +1 too!

    And yeah, if you have problems with crossbows – try fight at night and lough at them.

    All life's problems can be solved with a bayonet charge.

    #13450
    spamtaboo
    Participant

    +1 to idea with formations. It does look tempting.

    And I would disagree with Rusbear who says that the game is luck based. All you need is a well developed risk management strategy, and luck % is way less involved compared to real life. I do hope that developers are not going to eliminate the chance of random lucky hit with 5% chance to hit. I personally would not appreciate that, because “the strong influence of random” makes it so much more fun as so much more replayable. I personally would not like to see chess with 12 battle brothers.

    #13453
    RusBear
    Participant

    agree or disagree, to debate – it is your full right, and for this we have this forum :). But I’ll look at how you are going to talk about strategy and tactics when in ironman mode your best fighter 8 level will be simple killed by RND as 8 misses from 4 fighters at the last goblin surrounded and 3 retaliation under the armor from him… that’s when you remember about “chess”

    #13456
    spamtaboo
    Participant

    It would be a shame :) will not even try to argue about that, and that is what makes this game so special. You just always need to have a fallback plan.

    And remember it works both ways, sometimes you can hit a guy hidden by shield wall with mere 5% of chance to hit right in the kisser :) No way on Earth could you have planned it, but the opportunity is yours to grab and you need to adjust the strategy and be very flexible about it. That adds a tonn to replayability :)

    #13463
    Holy.Death
    Participant

    agree or disagree, to debate – it is your full right, and for this we have this forum :). But I’ll look at how you are going to talk about strategy and tactics when in ironman mode your best fighter 8 level will be simple killed by RND as 8 misses from 4 fighters at the last goblin surrounded and 3 retaliation under the armor from him… that’s when you remember about “chess”

    I find chess boring. It’s part of fun in RNG games when things doesn’t go as planned (for better or worse, as spamtaboo well noted). This doesn’t mean there is no strategy or tactics involved. Try to play games with RNG without any tactical or strategical approach and we shall see where you will end up being.

    #13465
    RusBear
    Participant

    This is understandable, I know there are perverts who even love the X com…
    “Fun” – this concept extremely subjective – I’m fun to build a strategy and build a soldier will come out and it is work-you throw the dice? can then throw dice instead of battle on a tactical map? and developers easier and more fun to you!
    Besides, I did not write that it is necessary to completely remove the random from the game. I wrote that it is too much and that it is especially felt in the early stages of the game. And it’s not just my opinion.

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