3. September 2015 at 10:10 #6427RamaParticipant
Firstly thank you for the beautiful game.
I really like the features of weapons in the game. But buckler hurt!!! Of course buckler worse than the large shield in defense and this is reflected in the game, as he was not suited to fight in the ranks, but due to its size, shape and maneuverability makes it easier to parry blows …
Why not add to it the ability “parry”? Then everything will be fair, one item – two abilities. :)3. September 2015 at 10:14 #64283. September 2015 at 10:27 #6431RamaParticipant
M-m-m… Equipped with the buckler can use parry stance.3. September 2015 at 12:32 #6435SarissofoiParticipant
Triple melee defence bonus from buckler. No change to ranged defence. Lower fatigue cost than shieldwall. No bonus to others.3. September 2015 at 14:43 #6439gorlumParticipant
The small diversity of types of shields in the gave (especially given their importance in combat) has bothered me for a long time (but my english is bad and it is difficult to explain what I mean).
I think that in order to differentiate bucklers from other types of shields so that buckler is not just a worse version of standard round flat shield it will be good to give him some purpose. Maybe create a special relationship with certain type of weapon category? Something like:
1) give the buckler and sword (all type of swords in the game) combination special meaning (that will be good from historical/realistic point of view) and, in the same time, different from sword and other types of shield combination. I can think of these things:
– giving a buckler smaller cost for equipping it. So if a weapon or a shield require 4 AP for equipping, buckler should be 2 AP. That way buckler will be special side arm type of shield for archers or two-handers.
– give special relationship with swords, something like +5 additional attack when using with sword. Or give the user +5 or 8 attack when it is attacking opponent, armed with sword type of weapon. Or maybe make this type of shield more of an offensive type. So flat +6 melee attack and +9 melee defense bonuses and only +5 ranged defense.
– give buckler special ability, something like “create an opening” at the cost of (cost is a question of balancing, of course) 5 additional fatigue. The use of this skill will add +15 to his melee attack rating (or flat 15-20% + to hit) and if this attack is a miss, -5 melee defense for the next attack against user.
– instead of “shield bash” – “catch the blade” – activated ability that will give some chance (something like 50% + difference between melee skills of user and opponent) to parry the enemy attacks until next turn. Parry means attack is missing its target. If it is activated (parry happen) the enemy weapon may be damaged (something like +2 or 4 damage).
Maybe if this change is approve in the game will be more types of bucklers (progression – different bonuses – maybe higher chance for activating of catching the blade and more durability).
If I may give additional proposition of shield type? What if we have two different types of relatively low level round shields? The flat round shield that is now in the game and dome-shaped round shield as additional type (this is also historical type of shield, used in the same time frame as flat round shield). The later will be little more expensive (but not by much) and more suited for defense against ranged attacks. So higher ranged defense, lower melee defense (like earlier version of kite shield). And I will give him different special ability in the place of “bash”. Something like “parry missiles” – increase chase of deflecting ranged attack.
This will give some option in early game against goblins.
PS Sorry for my bad english, I hope what I write is understandable enough3. September 2015 at 22:56 #6446MoqeekParticipant
Bucklers certainly were popular in warfare all be it a bit later than the period Battle Brothers takes its inspiration from. I think the trap you have to avoid is coming up with all sorts of bonuses and skills to make something useful or differentiate it from something else just for the sake of inclusion. I like Gorlums suggestions above though not so sure about the need for dome shields.
I would suggest that shields should go something like;
Buckler – low weight and low action point to deploy, decent melee block chance, rather than Shield bash knocking the opponent back you have a chance to stun – hitting out towards the face with a buckler was a common tactic.
Round Shield – as it is
Heater Shield – should be the same as the round shield but more durable and with slightly better stats – heater shields tended to be made thicker to better resist weapons blows (hence the move from centre boss to straps).
Kite Shield – I think the bonus should be to melee defense not missile. the long teardrop shape protects the legs from melee weapons but other than the fact its a little bigger I do not think it does anything more than a decent sized round shield to protect from missiles which are normally coming down in an arc or if fired directly aimed at the chest/head.
Pavises for archers/crossbowmen – should provide good missile protection but no melee protection (you can just push/pull them over or step round them).3. September 2015 at 23:21 #6447SarissofoiParticipant
More skills and skills from weapon combination will b great.
It would even make dualwielding possible. Like sword and swordbreaker or dagger.
Scale of battle is more for a adventurers group than a mercenary company so it should be possible to have some more fantasy options.
For pavisse shield – maybe a feploy option so a unit on this hex have a increased Ranged Deffence or deploy shields on nerby hex where it make a destructable (in melee) cover. So deploy pavisse and shoot from behind.4. September 2015 at 09:06 #6455gorlumParticipant
Bucklers certainly were popular in warfare all be it a bit later than the period Battle Brothers takes its inspiration from.
Hmm, I`m not so sure about that. They certainly were very popular by XIV century (as example, look here: http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/i33/i33.htm – this is early XIV century), and certainly earlier as well – there are many depictions of sword and bucklers from XIII century and XII century. If I judge by the weapons and armors in the game, the historical scope is somewhere from XI to probably very early XIV century (or more probably very late XIII century), because there are types of armor, that are from that period (1250-1300). So I think it is safe to say, that sword and bucklers were very popular in the historical period the game is based upon.
Here are collected several depictions from XIII-XIV century: https://signoresimone.wordpress.com/2014/10/29/gallery-bucklers/
I think that in the period of the game bucklers were predominantly wooden, with metal boss in center, but in later period (probably from late XIV and XV century) more popular were designs entirely made from metal. But if there have to be some progression in the bucklers, maybe there is place for one or two “later” types – one round all-metal and one diamond or irregular shaped (like this: http://www.der-schirrmeister.de/picture/B-W-001.jpg )5. September 2015 at 00:07 #6457MoqeekParticipant
@ Gorlum I guess I am a little stuck in thinking that Battle Brothers is X and XI century. I agree bucklers should be more useful. Going from a wooden, to iron, to steel buckler with appropriate durability upgrades and maybe some skill boasts would keep the buckler useful throughout the game and not just serve as a poor mans shield at the beginning of the game.
@ Sarissofoi For me duel welding is pretty much a no no. It never really happened [on the battle field] historically unless you count the shield as a weapon. Whilst dueling with sword and dagger existed and we have lots of manuals etc its simple because of expediency, a dagger was convenient to carry a shield or even a buckler was not. That duel welding was not used on the battle field suggests to me that it was not that effective (at least sword/axe/mace/hammer/spear and sheild was more effective) and not something that our Battle Brothers would do. Of course no one is going to force anyone to equip their Battle Brothers with duel weapons but it strikes me as being about playing up to a gaming trope more than anything else.
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