Neither generalist nor specialist: A "Hybrid" approach to team building

[Invictus73]

I confess that I am a powergamer, so I try to read all the necessary guides before I ever even play any games I purchase or plan to purchase. Now in the context of Battle Brothers, that information was rather scant due to the game being a product of a small dev team and still in early access. Still, I did find two illuminating guides on how to build the best team from two sources: Duungarm’s “Steel Cohort” guide on Steam and Dialetheia’s lengthy “Late game parties,…” thread also on Steam. These gentlemen have diametrically opposing approaches though. The Steel Cohort is a generalist, all melee, all heavy armor force that aspires to be immortal (the motto of the Cohort is apparently “we do not die”). In contrast, Dialethia’s group has mainly specialist characters – including melee damage characters that are so fragile that they need to be constantly “rotated” in and out by melee tanks with the Rotation Perk. While both approaches inspired me, neither was ultimately satisfactory for me. Instead, after much playtesting, I decided to blend their approaches so I’d have some of the overall survivability of the Steel Cohort and some of the concentrated damage potential of Dialethia’s group. So here’s how I built my team, and I’d love to hear any constructive criticisms. Of course, I am still a novice, so please forgive me if I make any flagrantly erroneous assumptions (I cannot have “conclusions” about this game, since I am a novice!).

My current team has almost 200 days, so I am teeming with money and unit XP as expectedly. As a result, so my team is entirely composed of Adventurous Nobles (“captain” role), Hedge Knights (both melee “workhorse” and melee damage roles), Sellswords (ranged damage roles), and Swordmasters (“roadblock” or “tarpit” roles). In addition, my latest team has no member with a negative Trait; these are literally the best characters I could recruit.

Before this team was such a diverse lot, however, they were initially all Hedge Knights and melee workhorses, identical to the Steel Cohort, which I emulated the first time I started my team. But I ran into a serious problem with the Steel Cohort build. While I never died as Duungarm promised, I also killed so excruciatingly slowly. Every tactical fight went the distance and was mind numbingly boring, just like a Floyd Mayeather fight. Moreover, I was driven to near psychosis by those hit and run (mostly “run”) AI ranged units, which unnecessarily prolonged the mop up process.

So I decided to get myself 4 ranged units, and 2 damage dedicated melees, and I was on the road to diversification. Yet, my fights did not run all that faster, since I was still building my purportedly “damage” units like the Steel Cohort tanks, encased in the heaviest gear. At best I gained marginal damage potential and lost marginal survivability. In short, I basically went from Tweedledum to Tweedledee.

Then I met my next guide, Dialetheia’s many excellent Steam threads, in particular the one referenced above. He taught me how to create truly hard hitting characters, as well as one dimensional, but powerful, characters like the Swordmaster Riposte bots. But I couldn’t take his principles wholesale. I don’t want to micromanage as much as he apparently does; and since I am a mistake–prone player, I wanted some margin for error, something that the Steel Cohort approach did very well. So a hybrid approach emerged, and my fancy sounding approach is ultimately nothing but ultimately slapping more armor on Dialethia’s group, the Steel Cohort style, as well as adding two ranged specialists – something neither Dialetheia nor Duungarm advocate.

The result has been a smashing success. Not only do I never die, but if I really try, I can, of course with some luck, go through lair fights without getting even hit (not without casualties, but without getting hit and thus without incurring even armor damage that I need to repair). Even without trying, I have not yet remotely been in danger of dying, albeit it’s still early with my final roster. Every fight is safe like Duungarm’s fights, and fast and exhilarating like Dialethia’s.

So first, who do I got?

The team is: 4 “workhorse” melees, 2 Nimble Riposte bot “tarpits”, 2 melee damage “bersekers,” 2 “captains,” and 2 ranged “snipers.”

The basic foundation block is the four man “workshorse” melees, the grunts of my team. They are the standard five Defense tree and five Utility tree shield wall spamming, Rotation toting muscleheads. I don’t need to elaborate on them, since I think most players have these guys on their roster, and they perform roughly the same roles for everyone. They are the “grunts” who do most of the dirty work. Equipment wise, I put the heaviest armor and shield on them. I used to equip them with crossbows (a major Steel Cohort principle is “a crossbow for every Brother, reflecting the creator’s generalist principles), but I no longer do, since 1) I hate micromanaging, and 2) it seems like it’s often a waste of melee AP to use any ranged weapons, unless they are raw recruits and need to be babysat. One among the four has the Inspiring Presence Perk, so deviates from the five Defense, five Utility build slightly. (Dialethia, perhaps mainly for RP purposes, has Inspiring Presence on his Swordmaster, but I felt it was better to give Swordmasters Anticipation due to their horrific ranged vulnerability.)

The next group are two Swordmasters, my godly Nimble Riposte bots, the ultimate tarpits I’ve seen in TBS games (really!). Currently, these guys are clearly overpowered, as they literally go through dozens of battles without ever getting hit in melee, and I am persuaded that they can solo every Orc lair. To give you a numerical idea, my better Swordmaster (better is “relative”) has a whopping 110 Melee Defense… (But I wouldn’t nerf them yet, since ranged and other future non–melee damage may neuter them anyways). Their job is to race forward to a designated choke spot of my choosing and Riposte/slow the enemy until my “workhorses” more completely pin the enemy down. Obviously, to take advantage of the Nimble Perk, they go without shield; and they wear Lamellar Harness since heavier armor is not needed as they never get hit in melee (but going lighter may make you too vulnerable v. missiles) and will reduce their Initiative too much for them to function as intended. (Remember, I want them to move first, before most of the enemy units do: Indeed, in this respect, I was lucky to get two Swordmasters with the Quick Trait; Without it, I may have faced the undesirable alternative of leveling Initiative or fighting naked!)

The final fighting melees are the two damage oriented Hedge Knights. I call them my “berserkers.” Unlike their “worhorse” Hedge Knight brethren, these wear lighter armor (Lamellar Harness, just like their Swordmaster brethren): I tried Heraldic Armor to make them nearly as invulnerable as their “workhorse” brethren, but then they had no Fatigue to do much. And obviously, going even lighter would make them too vulnerable, so the Lamellar Harness is a good comrpomise. They initially enter the fight with a shield and an axe and will switch to a two hander when they are no longer in danger of being focus fired. And as two handers, they are frightening; with Perfect Focus and captains spamming Rally, I can swing those massive two handers five times a turn; even in a shield mode, they can still do a number while being relatively safe. My “berserkers” have mid fifty Melee Defense with a shield, and they are not easy to hit either in Shieldwall mode, with Shieldwall and Inspiring Presence boosting my Melee Defense to almost eighty?! Not bad for one dimensional damage dealers. Overall, these guys chopping the Orc uglies left and right really make my fights enjoyable in a way that the Steel Cohort grindfests were not.

Next come the two Adventurous Noble captains, the Rally bots basically. I repeat: They literally do nothing but Rally, and Rally primarily so that my “berserkers” and “snipers” can unleash their Perfect Focus payloads repeatedly. Please do not make them do anything else, as you are wasting your character. (It’s like those “DPS” Paladins in WoW or “DPS” Captains in LOTRO I used to encounter back in the days: Even though these characters could do a quarter of the DPS that real DPS characters could do, some clowns insisted that they were DPS and will thus not play their “supporting” role; don’t be like these ‘tards.) I made them Nimble characters as well, because I wanted them survivable while walking around in light gear so that they have enough Fatigue left to Rally continuously.

Finally, I have two ranged specialists, my “snipers.” They are there for two roles. First, they will represent a counterbattery potential against enemy ranged units. This may be an idiosyncratic issue, but I need antiranged units desperately, because 1) I have so many units vulnerable to ranged, and 2) I really dislike fighting hit and run (mostly “run”) AI ranged units, which I feel is the most unpleasant experience in the entire game. Second, these snipers will offer supporting damage to my primarily melee force, especially in terms of providing firepower where my melees cannot do so. Did my overzealous berserker get stuck, surrounded, and my grunts can’t Rotate him out and save him? Here comes eight Aimed Shots in the vicinity! (Generally, don’t underestimate archers that can shoot four or more Aimed Shots almost every turn; even two of them can do a number!).

Now, I understand that some believe ranged units require too much babysitting and are vulnerable. I have obviated this problem to a large degree by two devices. First, there are only two: So there are fewer I have to worry about than most who deploy them. Second, they are reasonably melee capable when opponents close, because they, too, wear Lamellar Harness (I used to have them in Heraldic Mail as well initially, but that left me with too few Fatigue to shoot much), and if you only accept Sellswords, their Melee Skill is sufficiently high for them to employ billhooks rather effectively. I think I’ve only lost archers once, and not since I’ve gone with the latest team.

Overall, I have had no issue with anything with this team. In fact, while conclusions shouldn’t be drawn this early yet, it seems to me that my survivability is even better than the uber–survivable Steel Cohort, because I finish fights so fast, and prolonged fights always mean the greater possibility that something may go wrong. Effectively, this team makes the game almost too easy, at least until more non–melee damage threats are introduced to the game. (Seriously, going through a boss lair with no armor damage is kinda ridiculous.)

Anyways, I’d better stop writing more. But what a gem this game is; it’s hijacked my gaming life currently! ;)

[Mashed Zombie]

Why bother with hedge knights at all when swordmasters are vastly superior. I find that melee dps builds either die easy or just don’t deal that much more damage then melee tanks, making them pretty useless.

My build:

7-8 Swordmasters Of Doom
Battle Forged, Hold Out, Colossus, Nimble, Fortified Mind, Bags And Belts, Pathfinder, Quick Hands, Brawny, Weapon Master
Noble Sword, Warhammer, Military Cleaver, Kite Shield (never had to use yet), Heraldic Coat Of Plates, Full Helm
Primary Stats: stamina, melee attack, melee defence
Secondary Stats: health, range defence
(When increasing stats, don’t put more then a 100 attack or defence. You shouldn’t need it)

The only time a Swordmaster Of Doom is vulnerable is at low levels vs daggers and lost souls. So it is important to get your health up to 60. Yes I have lost Swordmasters Of Doom to them being stabbed in the head (damn marksmen). Other then that, your Swordmasters Of Doom shouldn’t be troubled by anyone.

3-4 Sellswords Of Doom
Fast Adaption, Sundering Strikes, Executioner, Bullseye, Close Combat Archer, Perfect Focus, Bags And Belts, Pathfinder, Quick Hands, Battle Flow
Hunting Bow, Noble Sword, Heater Shield, Billhook, Arrow Quiver x2, Chain Mail Shirt, Closed Mail Coif

Primary Stats: stamina, range attack, melee defence
Secondary Stats: melee attack

At the beginning of the battle these guys will wipe out all lesser enemies (thugs, most raiders, marksmen, young orcs, orc berserkers, ghouls and zombies). You should be able to get off 8+ arrows at least. I’ve never had to babysit my Sellswords Of Doom. Vampires aren’t a threat as Sellswords of doom, as they should have at least 45+ defence with their heater shields equipped.

1 Adventurous Noble Of Doom
Battle Forged, Hold Out, Colossus, Rotate, Bags And Belts, Pathfinder, Quick Hands, Brawny, Captain, Rally

Primary Stats: resolve, melee defence
Secondary Stats: stamina, melee attack, range attack

Crossbow, Mace, Heater Shield, Billhook, Bolt Quiver x2, Coat Of Scale, Kettle Helm

This build requires 65+ starting resolve. Which means you will need to find an adventurous noble with either fearless or brave. The Adventurous Noble Of Doom has only one job: keep your archers shooting. Rotate is their for emergencies.

[Invictus73]

Mashed Zombie wrote:

Why bother with hedge knights at all when swordmasters are vastly superior. I find that melee dps builds either die easy or just don’t deal that much more damage then melee tanks, making them pretty useless.

Swordmasters are indeed “vastly superior” defensively, but Hedge Knights make better damage characters, mainly because you need high Fatigue to utilize Perfect Focus, and Hedge Knights have 20 more on average, allowing you to swing at least once more per turn (and one more hit with a two hander?; well, that’s one extra kill per turn in some situations). And while melee damage builds can be fragile, I’ve built them in a way that makes them quite sturdy without losing too much damage potential. That was the whole point of this thread, combining the Steel Cohort’s survivalist and Dialetheia’s massive burst damage approaches.

[Invictus73]

Mashed Zombie wrote:

Primary Stats: stamina, melee attack, melee defence
Secondary Stats: health, range defence
(When increasing stats, don’t put more then a 100 attack or defence. You shouldn’t need it)

You may be right about this: In fact, 90 may be all you need. I find my 110 Melee Defense Swordmaster (120 or so with Inspiring Presence?) gets hit just as much as my 92 Melee Defense version. Further, someone also posted that pushing it over 90 doesn’t boost your avoidance chance.

Mashed Zombie wrote:

3-4 Sellswords Of Doom
Fast Adaption, Sundering Strikes, Executioner, Bullseye, Close Combat Archer, Perfect Focus, Bags And Belts, Pathfinder, Quick Hands, Battle Flow
Hunting Bow, Noble Sword, Heater Shield, Billhook, Arrow Quiver x2, Chain Mail Shirt, Closed Mail Coif

Hmmm, Battle Flow really lets you get that many shots off? Hmmm. Perhaps I should switch out Brawny then.

I will experiment with it on my melee DPS guys as well.

Mashed Zombie wrote:

1 Adventurous Noble Of Doom
Battle Forged, Hold Out, Colossus, Rotate, Bags And Belts, Pathfinder, Quick Hands, Brawny, Captain, Rally

Primary Stats: resolve, melee defence
Secondary Stats: stamina, melee attack, range attack

Crossbow, Mace, Heater Shield, Billhook, Bolt Quiver x2, Coat Of Scale, Kettle Helm

This build requires 65+ starting resolve. Which means you will need to find an adventurous noble with either fearless or brave. The Adventurous Noble Of Doom has only one job: keep your archers shooting. Rotate is their for emergencies.

Why do you need 65+ starting Resolve? Explain a bit more? Perhaps a better question is: What final number are you trying to reach?

[ManaSeed]

>> I did find two illuminating guides on how to build the best team from two sources: Duungarm’s “Steel Cohort” guide on Steam and Dialetheia’s lengthy “Late game parties,…” thread also on Steam. These gentlemen have diametrically opposing approaches though.

It’s not hard to see which team is better. Fight several tough battles. Jot down enemy types and numbers. Draw a chart with the statistics.
This looks like a joke but it should work. The battle system is not that technical or strategic so I think different players/testers won’t greatly impact the strength/result of a team.

Also, you should be more specific about the term “best team”. Best offense team, best defense team, best overall team, best begin-to-end team, best foolproof/amateur team.

>> Every fight is safe like Duungarm’s fights, and fast and exhilarating like Dialethia’s.
I haven’t read these guides but I hardly believe you can remove the tradeoff between offense(max fatigue) and defense(armor).

>> Anyways, I’d better stop writing more.
Information is never enough. But maybe it’s time for some statistics and concentrated summaries with bullet points.
======================================================

>> Why bother with hedge knights at all when swordmasters are vastly superior. I find that melee dps builds either die easy or just don’t deal that much more damage then melee tanks, making them pretty useless.
DPS wise, I think 10 more melee skill can’t compensate the difference in 20 max fatigue (15 fatigue cost for one hit with 2h weapon). One more hit makes a superb difference if you have Battle Flow. Also, you don’t need that much melee skill due to upper limit of chance to hit (95%). Dps build does deal more dmg today, if they survived the whole day. My build has a lot of woven tunic 2h melee, nobody dies so far. I doubt you can clear a battle in fewer rounds than me, but I believe you can clear the battle with less time and less stress.

>> When increasing stats, don’t put more then a 100 attack or defence. You shouldn’t need it
You need it. Even 110 melee skill doesn’t give 90% chance against enemy shieldwall. HOWEVER, you might not have spare stat points for that, if your build is not offense build.

>> This build requires 65+ starting resolve
Lol you too? I don’t understand why it is necessary. But it is more or less highest resolve among lv1 recruits. Also the ones I’m using for my Rally brothers.

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

Also, you should be more specific about the term “best team”. Best offense team, best defense team, best overall team, best begin-to-end team, best foolproof/amateur team.

A fair point. I should have been more precise. My definition of “best,” since I am a synthesizer or blender or moderate in all things, would be something like: The approach that best blends survival and killing power or offense and defense?

ManaSeed wrote:

Information is never enough. But maybe it’s time for some statistics and concentrated summaries with bullet points.

Yeah, screenshots of my character stats and select battle summaries would be useful. For instance, Mashed Zombie says melee DPS guys are either too fragile or cannot DPS, but I strongly disagree. One battle summary screen that shows that one of my “bersekers” did 4000 damage in six rounds (with no one on the team incurring any damage) would bely his claim, for instance. Unfortunately, print screen is broken for my keyboard at the moment, so those will have to wait.

ManaSeed wrote:

DPS wise, I think 10 more melee skill can’t compensate the difference in 20 max fatigue (15 fatigue cost for one hit with 2h weapon). One more hit makes a superb difference if you have Battle Flow. Also, you don’t need that much melee skill due to upper limit of chance to hit (95%). Dps build does deal more dmg today, if they survived the whole day.

Exactly.

ManaSeed wrote:

You need it. Even 110 melee skill doesn’t give 90% chance against enemy shieldwall. HOWEVER, you might not have spare stat points for that, if your build is not offense build.

But what about Melee Defense? Please post ASAP before I delete all my Swordmasters! ;)

[ManaSeed]

>> My definition of “best,” since I am a synthesizer or blender or moderate in all things, would be something like: The approach that best blends survival and killing power or offense and defense?
Something like this?

Offense 4
Defense/Survival 4
Anti-micromanage 2

>> One battle summary screen that shows that one of my “bersekers” did 4000 damage in six rounds (with no one on the team incurring any damage)
That’s incredibly impressive, my best dmg record for a single brother is only 2550. What enemies did you fight? Did that berserker fight all the enemies by himself in frontline? Why?

>> But what about Melee Defense? Please post ASAP before I delete all my Swordmasters!
(。-`ω´-) I can’t tell if you stupid or what. Weren’t you seducing me to not to tell you anything so I can see you delete your swordmasters?
Seeing people chosen wrong perks/stats or removed wrong members. My best pleasure. ψ(｀∇´)ψ

Well, you should have seen me posted the following before. ↓

When melee def is 92, orc youngs have about 5% (7/130) chance to hit me.
When melee def is 80, orc youngs have about 6% (12/180) chance to hit me.
When melee def is 68, orc youngs have about 11% (14/126) chance to hit me.

The experiment above is performed when 6 orc youngs have surrounded me. *Result might not be extremely precise because I didn’t separate the overwhelming effect which enemies inflicted on me, but the result should be practically precise/useful as enemy will overwhelm me in combat. As a reminder, I think different enemies might have different chance to hit.

[Mashed Zombie]

Why do you need 65+ starting Resolve? Explain a bit more? Perhaps a better question is: What final number are you trying to reach?

So you get the most out of Rally and Captain perks. You want to recover at least 40 stamina with a rally to recover all the stamina lost when using Perfect Focus.

[ManaSeed]

=======================================================
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=455096688
>> I personally find myself never using tier 3 Offensive and Defensive perks. I can sacrifice any offensive perk for more survivability and fatigue (which gives your survivability) and never have problem with killing stuff.
So my regular brother has following perks:
Utility tier 1: Quick Hands, Bags and Belts, Pathfinder
Utility tier 2: Brawny, Weaponmaster
Defensive tier 1: Battle Forged, Shield Expert, Hold Out/Colossus
Defensive tier 2: Rotation
and last perk is variable.

(｡ﾉᗨ<｡)ﾉI laughed when I read until here. He’s basically right about everything regarding best defense. That’s why I laughed. I doubt most players can endure so much sacrifice in offense.

>> It doesn’t matter: enemies flank, orcs break your lines or vampires teleport behind – any brother can become first line fighter
It’s actually nice to win a battle by simply clicking without thinking. Some say this is boring. But there is no such thing as excitement without peril. As much as I adore offense(some of my brothers increase melee+range+fatigue stat YET they still wear woven tunic), I find it tiring to think about every steps in eliminating multiple ranged threats(my greatest weakness). Of course, in large scale battle I’m more than willing to micromanage my team because an epic battle worth all the trouble.

Most people probably know this, a pure DPS build can turn into half DPS half tank build by SIMPLY PUTTING ON ARMOR ANYTIME. However, you can’t effectively turn a tank build into DPS build by simply taking off the armor. Furthermore, our defense perks are seriously underpowered at the moment. The moment you didn’t hesitate to choose a perk, the perk tree is proven unbalanced.

The sad news is, even though I realized & tested the value of armor, I can’t mentally convince myself to put them on. The tragedy of offense junkie…… O|¯|_ Still, I always carry sets of armors in my inventory. Maybe I will put them on before fighting vampires. You know, 1 woven tunic v.s. 3 teleporting vampires, it’s not funny at all, someone might die.
=======================================================
http://steamcommunity.com/app/365360/discussions/0/617336568063177868/#p1
>> Dialetheia’s build
This build suits my taste better than the Steel Cohort build. I personally don’t think these two builds are opposing extremes. Yes Steel Cohort is the defense extreme, but I think Dial’s build is just an offensive version of Steel Cohort. Most of my brothers wear woven tunic and none has take any perk which is not meant for offense purpose. Perks like Brawny and Rotation has never crossed my mind when I think about my build.

Also, I do not agree about breaking enemy shields. I don’t think fighting axe is a viable choice for offense build too. Not statically proven, but by looking at the values I think you can kill enemy faster if you attack them instead of their shield.

I personally think closed mail coif (90 armor) + mail shirt (120 armor) is optimal armor setup for a standard brother or aggressor. That helmet is especially handy for providing so much armor despite being very light. This setup is optimal in the sense you can dish out as much damage as possible with just enough armor to keep you alive in most situations. Yeah, I’m wearing hood and woven tunic, so what? I didn’t die.
=======================================================

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

Something like this?

Offense 4
Defense/Survival 4
Anti-micromanage 2

Damn, you should be my spokesman. Too bad I am not anyone important! ;)

ManaSeed wrote:

That’s incredibly impressive, my best dmg record for a single brother is only 2550. What enemies did you fight? Did that berserker fight all the enemies by himself in frontline? Why?

I think you misinterpreted me, though the failure lies likely with the writer and not the reader. I think you read me to mean that the rest of my brethren did no damage; but what I meant to say was that none of my brethren took damage.

My point was that you can fight both safely and explosively. Pow!

ManaSeed wrote:

Seeing people chosen wrong perks/stats or removed wrong members. My best pleasure. ψ(｀∇´)ψ

Well, you should have seen me posted the following before. ↓

When melee def is 92, orc youngs have about 5% (7/130) chance to hit me.
When melee def is 80, orc youngs have about 6% (12/180) chance to hit me.
When melee def is 68, orc youngs have about 11% (14/126) chance to hit me.

The experiment above is performed when 6 orc youngs have surrounded me. *Result might not be extremely precise because I didn’t separate the overwhelming effect which enemies inflicted on me, but the result should be practically precise/useful as enemy will overwhelm me in combat. As a reminder, I think different enemies might have different chance to hit.

I did read that post. But I still don’t understand what you are trying to say. But I take it: Since minimum chance to hit is five percent, and 92 Melee Defense got you there, you do not need to increase it higher?

[Invictus73]

Mashed Zombie wrote:

So you get the most out of Rally and Captain perks. You want to recover at least 40 stamina with a rally to recover all the stamina lost when using Perfect Focus.

Yeah, but what’s the final Resolve number you are trying to reach? It seems to me that’s more important than the starting number, unless you won’t increase it any further at level ups. I am confused.

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

(｡ﾉᗨ<｡)ﾉI laughed when I read until here. He’s basically right about everything regarding best defense. That’s why I laughed. I doubt most players can endure so much sacrifice in offense.

I agree; I certainly couldn’t. And I am as careful and flighty as men get, as I adore “safe,” whether gaming or sex or what not! ;)

ManaSeed wrote:

Most people probably know this, a pure DPS build can turn into half DPS half tank build by SIMPLY PUTTING ON ARMOR ANYTIME. However, you can’t effectively turn a tank build into DPS build by simply taking off the armor. Furthermore, our defense perks are seriously underpowered at the moment. The moment you didn’t hesitate to choose a perk, the perk tree is proven unbalanced.

A most trenchant observation.

ManaSeed wrote:

Yes Steel Cohort is the defense extreme, but I think Dial’s build is just an offensive version of Steel Cohort. Most of my brothers wear woven tunic and none has take any perk which is not meant for offense purpose. Perks like Brawny and Rotation has never crossed my mind when I think about my build.

Are you kidding me? Dialetheia’s DPS guys have to be airlifted in and out, LOL! ;)

As for his team being more defensive than yours, well, that doesn’t mean his team is not offensive — that’s like saying Kim Il Sung wasn’t genocidal because Mao Tse Tung killed more. Compared to Mao, no one looks (more) genocidal; compared to you, no one looks more recklessly offense oriented. You are a sui generis as far as unsafe, on the precipe of disaster gaming is concerned indeed! ;)

ManaSeed wrote:

Also, I do not agree about breaking enemy shields. I don’t think fighting axe is a viable choice for offense build too. Not statically proven, but by looking at the values I think you can kill enemy faster if you attack them instead of their shield.

I don’t either, though my conviction emerges more for the thirst for simplicity than any genuine game knowledge.

ManaSeed wrote:

I personally think closed mail coif (90 armor) + mail shirt (120 armor) is optimal armor setup for a standard brother or aggressor. That helmet is especially handy for providing so much armor despite being very light. This setup is optimal in the sense you can dish out as much damage as possible with just enough armor to keep you alive in most situations. Yeah, I’m wearing hood and woven tunic, so what? I didn’t die.

That’s just too little. Can’t the nastiest enemies hit for over 200 per hit? Assuming you have fifty or so HPs, I’d imagine you want an armor piece that gives you around 200 or more to avoid getting at least one shotted.

[Invictus73]

Invictus73 wrote:

Mashed Zombie wrote:

So you get the most out of Rally and Captain perks. You want to recover at least 40 stamina with a rally to recover all the stamina lost when using Perfect Focus.

Yeah, but what’s the final Resolve number you are trying to reach? It seems to me that’s more important than the starting number, unless you won’t increase it any further at level ups. I am confused.

Ok, a follow up:

My two captains have 95 and 89 Resolve, respectively. Is that enough? If I started at 65, I may still not have reached 95 for instance, though I likely would’ve reached 89.

So once again: What FINAL number am I aiming for?

[ManaSeed]

>> One battle summary screen that shows that one of my “bersekers” did 4000 damage in six rounds (with no one on the team incurring any damage)
>> I think you misinterpreted me, though the failure lies likely with the writer and not the reader. I think you read me to mean that the rest of my brethren did no damage; but what I meant to say was that none of my brethren took damage.
What I understood: One of your team members managed to deal 4000 damage within the duration of six rounds, while none of your member has taken any damage in any form.

That’s why I said one of my brothers has dealt 2550 damage in a battle for his personal record. Did I miss something again? Don’t worry, I can tell your attitude is very friendly (a little too friendly though… it’s suspicious)

>> Yeah, but what’s the final Resolve number you are trying to reach? It seems to me that’s more important than the starting number, unless you won’t increase it any further at level ups. I am confused.

Everytime you increase Resolve stat, you get 2~4 resolve. So you get +20~40 resolve from lv1 to lv11.

Starting number affects final number a lot. Do you think you have good chance to get high final Resolve if you have low initial Resolve?
Let’s say I have 65 initial resolve and you have 44 initial resolve.
My min final resolve = 65 + 20 = 85
Your max final resolve = 44 + 40 = 84

You can’t win me despite fortune favors you, if I have high starting Resolve.

>> I did read that post. But I still don’t understand what you are trying to say.

Well my communication sucks a lot. I will try to rephrase my sentences with my communication ski-
Arghh…. O|¯|_ nevermind. I’ll try my best.

I performed an experiment about “chance to get hit with different melee defense”. I gathered 6 Orc Youngs around a brother and jot down the statistics as they try to hit him. Of course I saved the game before I increase his melee defense or run the experiment.

When my brother has 92 melee defense, orc youngs have about 5% (7 connected hit / 130 attempted hit) chance to hit me.
When my brother has 80 melee defense, orc youngs have about 6% (12 connected hit / 180 attempted hit) chance to hit me.
When my brother has 68 melee defense, orc youngs have about 11% (14 connected hit / 126 attempted hit) chance to hit me.

Special Notes:
This experiment is not being performed in the most accurate way. Enemy might inflict “Overwhelmed” status on us, just like how we did to them. The overwhelmed status affects chance to hit. To make sure data collected is extremely precise, I should ONLY let one orc young hit me at a time. But that’s too time consuming so I didn’t do it. I simply let 6 orc youngs to attack me at the same time, so the final result might include “overwhelmed” effect.

Conclusion, the data collected actually represents chance to get hit WHEN BEING SURROUNDED, but doesn’t truly represent chance to get hit. But I expect every player is going to use this information for their tanker, which is meant to be surrounded.

======================================================================
>> Since minimum chance to hit is five percent, and 92 Melee Defense got you there, you do not need to increase it higher?
It’s true orc young has about 5% chance to hit you when you have 92 melee def….
But I haven’t tried 91 melee def!!!! щ(ºДºщ)
Who knows if 91 doesn’t yield the similar result?
I’ve only tried 92, 80, 68 　　O|¯|_
I know it’s kinda misleading….　　 O|¯|_
You might think I’ve tried value between 68~92　 　O|¯|_
But if someone have really tried all the value between 68~92, he must be insane insanely enthusiastic!!! щ(ºДºщ)
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
To answer your question, you don’t need higher melee def than 92 when being surrounded by Orc Youngs. But different enemies might have different chance to hit, maybe orc youngs are the ones with very low accuracy? Haha, funny isn’t it. I don’t how accurate is orc young among all enemies. But I think if enemy uses sword type weapon, their chance to hit will increases by 10%, just like us.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
To answer your purpose behind your question, I don’t know if 92 is optimal/perfect defense stat against multiple Orc Youngs. But if we use simple mathematics which is super unreliable:

When my brother has 80 melee defense, orc youngs have about 6%
When my brother has 68 melee defense, orc youngs have about 11%

(80-68)/(11-6) = 12 melee def gives 5% difference in chance to get hit

So each melee def reduce chance to get hit by multiple orcs by 0.4%.
82~83 melee def should give you 95% chance to dodge against multiple orc youngs.

It seems our chance to hit enemy is determined by simple mathematics too.
Our melee skill – enemy defense stat – enemy shield defense etc = chance to hit

This is one reason to justify why we use simple and suspicious mathematics just now. I think my morale is wavering now O|¯|_
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
To further answer your purpose behind your question, this is what I’ve done for my Nimble character.

In my case, I increase my melee defense to around 30. I’ve taken Nimble so it doubles to 60. I’ve also taken Hold Out, so my melee def will reach about 80 when I gain confident status.

Now that I’ve think of it… maybe I should increases my melee def slightly higher. You know, enemy has spear that increase accuracy by 20% and sword for 10% extra accuracy. Hah! Just kidding. Sword and spear doesn’t do damage at all. Wait a minute…. Greatsword and billhook increases accuracy by 5% too. These weapons hurt when they hit. Okay, your optimal defense stat should be 82~88, assuming most enemy has more or less same accuracy as orc youngs.

What do you mean I’m doing estimation based on estimation? I think my morale is breaking now. Everything sounds unreliable O|¯|_ By the way, I think I’ve answered your question as much as possible with the limited data I possessed. If anyone finds a certain type of enemy being extremely accurate and deadly than others, I would like to run the experiment again.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
P.S.
let me read some of your replies before I reply again. I’m too ashamed of the long text so I must not join everything together.

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

Did I miss something again?

Ok, I thought you misinterpreted me, but you didn’t.

Anyways, as for the original question: I fought Orcs in an Orc lair. Actually, it was a clusterf&2k of sorts, since there were two roving Orc bands that defended together with the lair garrison. So it was a lot of Orcs (like 29), and they all streamed forward. And my DPS guys simply had an absurd luck with hits and high damage hits. In fact, even my “tarpit” Riposte bot did a lot of damage.

ManaSeed wrote:

Don’t worry, I can tell your attitude is very friendly (a little too friendly though… it’s suspicious)

I am not THAT friendly. I am also blunt and quick tempered. So I am too eager to tell off obvious idiots, and I can go off in an epic way when people piss me off with ad hominem type of stuff.

ManaSeed wrote:

Starting number affects final number a lot. Do you think you have good chance to get high final Resolve if you have low initial Resolve?
Let’s say I have 65 initial resolve and you have 44 initial resolve.
My min final resolve = 65 + 20 = 85
Your max final resolve = 44 + 40 = 84

You can’t win me despite fortune favors you, if I have high starting Resolve.

I understand the level up mechanics (and I exploit it by save scumming). But you didn’t answer the question: What kind of Resolve numbers is my captain aiming for? :)

ManaSeed wrote:

I performed an experiment about “chance to get hit with different melee defense”. I gathered 6 Orc Youngs around a brother and jot down the statistics as they try to hit him. Of course I saved the game before I increase his melee defense or run the experiment.

When my brother has 92 melee defense, orc youngs have about 5% (7 connected hit / 130 attempted hit) chance to hit me.
When my brother has 80 melee defense, orc youngs have about 6% (12 connected hit / 180 attempted hit) chance to hit me.
When my brother has 68 melee defense, orc youngs have about 11% (14 connected hit / 126 attempted hit) chance to hit me.

Special Notes:
This experiment is not being performed in the most accurate way. Enemy might inflict “Overwhelmed” status on us, just like how we did to them. The overwhelmed status affects chance to hit. To make sure data collected is extremely precise, I should ONLY let one orc young hit me at a time. But that’s too time consuming so I didn’t do it. I simply let 6 orc youngs to attack me at the same time, so the final result might include “overwhelmed” effect.

Conclusion, the data collected actually represents chance to get hit WHEN BEING SURROUNDED, but doesn’t truly represent chance to get hit. But I expect every player is going to use this information for their tanker, which is meant to be surrounded.

======================================================================
>> Since minimum chance to hit is five percent, and 92 Melee Defense got you there, you do not need to increase it higher?
It’s true orc young has about 5% chance to hit you when you have 92 melee def….
But I haven’t tried 91 melee def!!!! щ(ºДºщ)
Who knows if 91 doesn’t yield the similar result?
I’ve only tried 92, 80, 68 　　O|¯|_
I know it’s kinda misleading….　　 O|¯|_
You might think I’ve tried value between 68~92　 　O|¯|_
But if someone have really tried all the value between 68~92, he must be insane insanely enthusiastic!!! щ(ºДºщ)
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
To answer your question, you don’t need higher melee def than 92 when being surrounded by Orc Youngs. But different enemies might have different chance to hit, maybe orc youngs are the ones with very low accuracy? Haha, funny isn’t it. I don’t how accurate is orc young among all enemies. But I think if enemy uses sword type weapon, their chance to hit will increases by 10%, just like us.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
To answer your purpose behind your question, I don’t know if 92 is optimal/perfect defense stat against multiple Orc Youngs. But if we use simple mathematics which is super unreliable:

When my brother has 80 melee defense, orc youngs have about 6%
When my brother has 68 melee defense, orc youngs have about 11%

(80-68)/(11-6) = 12 melee def gives 5% difference in chance to get hit

So each melee def reduce chance to get hit by multiple orcs by 0.4%.
82~83 melee def should give you 95% chance to dodge against multiple orc youngs.

It seems our chance to hit enemy is determined by simple mathematics too.
Our melee skill – enemy defense stat – enemy shield defense etc = chance to hit

This is one reason to justify why we use simple and suspicious mathematics just now. I think my morale is wavering now O|¯|_
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
To further answer your purpose behind your question, this is what I’ve done for my Nimble character.

In my case, I increase my melee defense to around 30. I’ve taken Nimble so it doubles to 60. I’ve also taken Hold Out, so my melee def will reach about 80 when I gain confident status.

Now that I’ve think of it… maybe I should increases my melee def slightly higher. You know, enemy has spear that increase accuracy by 20% and sword for 10% extra accuracy. Hah! Just kidding. Sword and spear doesn’t do damage at all. Wait a minute…. Greatsword and billhook increases accuracy by 5% too. These weapons hurt when they hit. Okay, your optimal defense stat should be 82~88, assuming most enemy has more or less same accuracy as orc youngs.

What do you mean I’m doing estimation based on estimation? I think my morale is breaking now. Everything sounds unreliable O|¯|_ By the way, I think I’ve answered your question as much as possible with the limited data I possessed. If anyone finds a certain type of enemy being extremely accurate and deadly than others, I would like to run the experiment again.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
P.S.
let me read some of your replies before I reply again. I’m too ashamed of the long text so I must not join everything together.

Ok, so your tentative conclusion on Melee Defense is basically:

You hit the five percent minimum hit chance v. Orc younglings at Melee Defense 92, but we don’t know what kind of Melee Skill the more skilled AI units possess to make an ironclad conclusion about what Melee Defense we need in general? ;)

[Author]

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