Topic: Neither generalist nor specialist: A "Hybrid" approach to team building

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  • #4960
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    Certain weapons ignore bonus to melee defense granted by shields. Not sure if this is the correct answer to your puzzle. Chance to hit can be affected by various factors.

    #4961
    Jaffai
    Participant

    Max resolve = 45(Perfect roll)+10(Fearless)+5(Drunkard)+5(Cocky)+15(Background)+40(levels)= 120
    With rally u get 120/2 = 60
    With 2 of these you get 120 fatigue per round.
    With 3 of these you get 180 fatigue per round.
    Max Fatigue (With billhook) = 105(Perfect roll)+50(levels)+20(Background)+15(Strong)= 190-14 = 176
    That is 9 attacks with billhook and perfect focus without taking any other perk in factor.

    #4962
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    >> Jaffai’s very useful info about “max consecutive hits with Perfect Focus”
    There’s something I want to supplement.

    DIFFERENCE between Wildman and Hedge Knight
    wildman ==> + 10 max fatigue, +5 resolve
    hedge knight ==> +10 melee, +10 Melee def

    I actually forgot Wildman could be better alternative than Hedge Knight.

    Max consecutive 2h hits with Perfect Focus ==> [Wildman 9hits/Hedge Knight 8hits] = 1.125x
    Max melee skill ==> [Hedge Knight 105/ Wildman 95] = 1.10x

    There can never be too many hits. But 105 melee skill will reach 95% hit chance most of the time, so the excessive/unnecessary melee skill is wasted. As pure DPS melee brother, Wildman is a better alternative than Hedge Knight.


    >> Max resolve = 45(Perfect roll)+10(Fearless)+5(Drunkard)+5(Cocky)+15(Background)+40(levels)= 120
    With rally u get 120/2 = 60
    With 3 of these you get 180 fatigue per round.

    Theoretically correct, but should be practically incorrect(slightly). Due to limitation of initial position and distance, only few brothers can actually benefit from all 3 Rally brothers while delivering damage efficiently. Unless all of the attacking brothers are using ranged attacks, or they wait for enemy to come extremely near.

    Also, you must be blessed if you can actually get a duo from [fearless, drunkard, cocky]. So far I’ve never gotten one but I know it is possible. I have a brother with Strong and Iron Lungs but I doubt I’ll ever see one with both traits again.

    Most importantly, I have a question. Has anyone gotten a recruit with 3 traits before (yes I don’t mean the founding member)?

    I guess you already knew all these stuff. But I just want to point this out to make the presented values more practical and meaningful.
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    There are two forums members I want to tear them apart.

    NewAgeofPower ==> reason: I used to choose Hunter as ranged brothers. Then he made me realized I’m an idiot Sellsword is a better choice. So I ended up going through hell to raise lv1 recruits to lv11.

    Jaffai ==> reason: I used to choose Hedge Knight as pure DPS melee brothers. Then he made me realized I’m an idiot Wildman is a better choice. So I’m hesitating if I should go through hell again.
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

    By the way, can any Samaritan confirm two values for me?

    What is the best initial melee skill for recruit(exclude traits effect)? 54 or 55?
    What is the best initial max fatigue for recruit(exclude traits effect)? 105 or 106?

    #4963
    Invictus73
    Participant

    You sure your 110 melee skill has 95% hit chance against shieldwall? Let’s say a shield reduce hit chance by 10%, shieldwall will reduce 20% hit chance in total, so 110 melee skill should be 90% hit chance if there are no other factors such Fast Adaption, weapon accuracy, height difference, overwhelmed etc. Not to mention some shield reduce hit chance by 15%, thus reduce 30% hit chance with shieldwall. 110-30 =80

    I think I am fairly sure, but I am only a man, and thus always fallible. But I don’t think I ever even recall this guy having less than ninety five percent chance.

    Edit: He’s a sword user: A Swordmaster Riposte bot. So perhaps that explains it?

    #4964
    Invictus73
    Participant

    Max resolve = 45(Perfect roll)+10(Fearless)+5(Drunkard)+5(Cocky)+15(Background)+40(levels)= 120
    With rally u get 120/2 = 60
    With 2 of these you get 120 fatigue per round.
    With 3 of these you get 180 fatigue per round.
    Max Fatigue (With billhook) = 105(Perfect roll)+50(levels)+20(Background)+15(Strong)= 190-14 = 176
    That is 9 attacks with billhook and perfect focus without taking any other perk in factor.

    But those numbers are not likely even possible in practice! ;)

    Jaffai ==> reason: I used to choose Hedge Knight as pure DPS melee brothers. Then he made me realized I’m an idiot Wildman is a better choice. So I’m hesitating if I should go through hell again.
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

    By the way, can any Samaritan confirm two values for me?

    What is the best initial melee skill for recruit(exclude traits effect)? 54 or 55?
    What is the best initial max fatigue for recruit(exclude traits effect)? 105 or 106?

    Yes, I see that Wildman are better in pure DPS terms. But I prefer a more balanced build; in particular, those 10 Melee Defense means a big deal for me, as my melee DPSers are wearing only Lamellar Harness and using two handers.

    #4965
    Invictus73
    Participant

    By the way, I don’t understand all the fuss about Lost Souls.

    I just fought them and wiped them in 3 rounds, with zero armor damage even.

    I guess it helped that all my six of tanks now have Fortified Mind (I changed the team again), but I could see a variety of other ways where these guys can be made trivial. For instance, the 4 Perfect Focus ranged guys set up may take them even in two turns, as Lost Souls melt in one hit.

    A much ado about nothing.

    #4968
    Jaffai
    Participant

    Oh true, I guess you can only get 2 traits.
    55 is max for melee and 105 is max for fatigue.
    In attachment more math with weapons, I know how much devs like it.

    #4973
    Invictus73
    Participant

    Oh true, I guess you can only get 2 traits.
    55 is max for melee and 105 is max for fatigue.
    In attachment more math with weapons, I know how much devs like it.

    I’ve seen 69 (LOL) on a Hedge Knight, I believe. I guess 80 is possible on a Swordmaster.

    #4974
    Jaffai
    Participant

    Screenshot or it didnt happen :D. Base roll of generated character for melee is 45-55 before adding backgrounds and traits.

    #4975
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    >>
    Jaffai: Max Fatigue (With billhook) = 105(Perfect roll)+50(levels)+20(Background)+15(Strong)= 190-14 = 176
    That is 9 attacks with billhook and perfect focus without taking any other perk in factor.

    73: But those numbers are not likely even possible in practice!

    9 consecutive 2h hits are slightly deceptive because it requires a minimum of 189 max fatigue. (189 -40 focus cost -14 billhook penalty)/15 fatigue per 2h hit = 9
    You might die in front of monitor before you get a Wildman with 104 initial stamina and Strong trait. When perform 9 hits consecutively, your brother can’t take even one step forward due to insufficient fatigue. This is relevant if his nearest target is at range 3 (as a Perfect Focus user, I can tell you this will happen very frequently for various reasons).

    HOWEVER, what really matter is 10 extra max fatigue from Wildman gives a lot of value to DPS build if you have Battle Flow. It can push your non-stop attacking abilities to a higher level.


    >> I think I am fairly sure, but I am only a man, and thus always fallible. But I don’t think I ever even recall this guy having less than ninety five percent chance.

    Edit: He’s a sword user: A Swordmaster Riposte bot. So perhaps that explains it?

    Well I’m not sure about the calculation of hit chance. It looks like simple addition/reduction and I never have trouble to hit/kill enemy with melee, so I didn’t pay real attention to it.

    Edit: Swords’ normal attacks increases hit chance by 10%. So perhaps that explains it?

    >> Yes, I see that Wildman are better in pure DPS terms. But I prefer a more balanced build; in particular, those 10 Melee Defense means a big deal for me, as my melee DPSers are wearing only Lamellar Harness and using two handers.
    I think 10 melee def means big deal for everyone. If it’s hard for your brothers to die, your enemy will die instead.

    >> By the way, I don’t understand all the fuss about Lost Souls.
    I don’t understand how they work too. But I’ve seen them made my 80 resolve steady brother fled with one howling. Ever since that, I kill them as soon as possible. Fleeing is hell when you wear woven tunic.

    ==============================================
    >> In attachment more math, I know how much devs like it.
    Lol. How did you find out that devs like math?

    >> excel screenshot
    The equation shown at the top is too long and complicated for me O|¯|_
    But whole thing is quite tidy, it inspires and motivates me to do my own.

    ==============================================
    >> I’ve seen 69 (LOL) on a Hedge Knight, I believe. I guess 80 is possible on a Swordmaster.
    If max initial melee skill is 55, swordmaster increases melee by 20, you shouldn’t get 80 right?

    EDIT
    >> Screenshot or it didnt happen :D.
    Invictus, show Jaffai the dumb what is photo editing.

    #4978
    Holy.Death
    Participant

    By the way, I don’t understand all the fuss about Lost Souls.
    I just fought them and wiped them in 3 rounds, with zero armor damage even.
    I guess it helped that all my six of tanks now have Fortified Mind (I changed the team again), but I could see a variety of other ways where these guys can be made trivial. For instance, the 4 Perfect Focus ranged guys set up may take them even in two turns, as Lost Souls melt in one hit.
    A much ado about nothing.

    They are annoying in a number of ways. First, the whole row screams at your men. Your men start running. They try to disengage and either get killed/damaged or they run away. Meaning you’ll have to reposition them again, meaning they’ll be exposed to disengagement attacks at beginning of next turn.

    To sum it up: there are too many Lost Souls and it’s too easy to make everybody flee. I think Lost Souls shouldn’t be employed en masse and go as support with some other undead units instead. And there should be more ways to counter fleeing in panic except taking a perk. Even high morale can’t protect you against 18 Lost Souls yelling at you in a row.

    Sure, if you have people who always hit anything they aren’t a problem, but we shouldn’t only look at enemies when we’re in the end game.

    By the way, aren’t ranged weapons limited to 5% against the Lost Souls?

    #4979
    Invictus73
    Participant

    Screenshot or it didnt happen :D. Base roll of generated character for melee is 45-55 before adding backgrounds and traits.

    Plus 10 Hedge Knight Melee Skill bonus Plus 5 for Dextrous means I’d only need 54 to get that Hedge Knight. So it’s perfectly within the bounds of possibility.

    I don’t recall what my 110 Swordmaster was when I picked him up (he was one of the earliest characters I picked up in this game), but I suspect he was close to 80, otherwise he wouldn’t have gotten to 110.

    #4980
    Invictus73
    Participant

    Invictus, show Jaffai the dumb what is photo editing.

    I told ya my screenshot button is broken; and I am too computer unsavvy to even know how to use photoshop.

    Anyways, as I explained, it’s perfectly possible using the numbers you guys gave.

    #4981
    Invictus73
    Participant

    They are annoying in a number of ways. First, the whole row screams at your men. Your men start running. They try to disengage and either get killed/damaged or they run away. Meaning you’ll have to reposition them again, meaning they’ll be exposed to disengagement attacks at beginning of next turn.

    To sum it up: there are too many Lost Souls and it’s too easy to make everybody flee. I think Lost Souls shouldn’t be employed en masse and go as support with some other undead units instead. And there should be more ways to counter fleeing in panic except taking a perk. Even high morale can’t protect you against 18 Lost Souls yelling at you in a row.

    Sure, if you have people who always hit anything they aren’t a problem, but we shouldn’t only look at enemies when we’re in the end game.

    What about Fortified Mind? Most folks do use tanks; and tanks have enough Perk slots to get Fortified Mind. And a few Fortified tanks should handle them easily.

    #4985
    Saitorosan
    Participant

    Sure, if you wade into a mass of lost souls with low level guys you’re gonna get smashed. Just like if you don’t use the proper tactics for, say, orcs. It is annoying when your bros flee for like 3 turns and then you have to get them back into the battle, but it’s really not that bad. Just use the right tactics and they are basically slightly more annoying en masse than chasing down archers.

    Minimum to hit them with ranged is not locked at 5 either, I’ve seen as good as 17% with a decent ranged guy and crossbow, no height advantage, 6 spaces out. I’m guessing with more specialization and better conditions that can go way up.

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