Neither generalist nor specialist: A "Hybrid" approach to team building

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

>> well, perhaps not this any longer, as I’ve matured!
＿φ(□□ヘ) Someone says a humble person will never tell you he is humble. Same goes for mature person.
＿φ(□□ヘ) But this a friggin lie because today I saw a matured person said he was matured.

Ok, comparatively speaking then.

ManaSeed wrote:

I’ve been wondering about that too. All I know is greataxe can kill a single orc warrior faster than greatsword. For Perfect Flow brothers, I think it is more stamina-efficient to take out orc warrior one by one with greataxe, rather than using greatsword area attack on multiple orc warriors.

Greataxe’s Split Man hits both head and body, so it can break both helmet and armor. Making it hard to compare Greatsword and Greataxe extensively without collecting a lot of data.

[/quote]

Indeed; and I only used a greatsword on one guy, simply because he was missing 2 Fatigue to use a greataxe to swing it 4 times. Of course, soon I will recruit enough “Strong” Hedge Knights to swing all 2 handers FIVE times, and then my DPS will be in the surreal land! ;)

[Invictus73]

Anyways, latest changes to my “dream team”:

*4 Hedge Knight “workhorse” tanks:

These stay mainly as is, except one major modification: I am favoring Initiative greatly on these guys, because high Initiative allows them to “march block” (Warhammer term) opponents, and let me dictate the tactical map. This means, among others, they, not my “berserkers,” will get Orc stunned.

So they stop leveling Melee Offense at 90 and level Initiative instead at that point. Further, they now no longer wear the heaviest helmet and armor; instead, we go with Flat Top with Mail and Lamellar Harness.

*2 Swordmaster “fast” tank Nimble Riposte bots:

Like the workhorse tanks, they favor Initiative now. Except these guys will be even faster, as they won’t be shielded and use even lighter armor. They stop leveling both Melee Skill & Defense at 90 and invest in Initiative and Fatigue instead.

*2 Hedge Knight “berserker” melee damage maniacs:

These stay the same, except I am not stopping till I find suitable “Strong” Background candidates, since I want them to be able to swing 2 handers five times with Perfect Focus, not the conventional four.

*2 Sellsword ranged damage “snipers”:

Like their melee damage brethren, I won’t stop till I find suitable “Strong” Background candidates, as I want them to be able to shoot an extra time. Otherwise no change.

*2 Adventurous Noble Rally bots:

These stay the same, except they, too, use lighter armor (they don’t need heavy armor when they have Nimble and generally stay furthest from action).

[Invictus73]

In short, my team is stripping down a bit of their clothing, so they can go faster and more often.

[ManaSeed]

>> These stay mainly as is, except one major modification: I am favoring Initiative greatly on these guys, because high Initiative allows them to “march block” (Warhammer term) opponents, and let me dictate the tactical map.
I assume “march block” means march & block, occupy specific tiles ahead of your opponent. Let me guess your purpose.
1) well positioned tanks gives better crowd control with their ZoC (Zone of Control)
2) acting ahead of enemy in first round enable your formation to advance in a tidy fashion

Too bad we still have no control in initial positioning of our units yet, or we can have some really tactical team setup.

>> This means, among others, they, not my “berserkers,” will get Orc stunned.
Not sure if I understand you right. You mean your berserkers won’t get stunned?

>> no longer wear the heaviest helmet and armor; instead, we go with Flat Top with Mail and Lamellar Harness.
Not you sure if you talking about Flat Top with closed Mail(265 durability), or Closed Flat Top with Mail(280 durability). Either way, shouldn’t you wear helmet with equal or lower durability compared to armor (Lamellar Harness, 210 durability) because enemy has higher chance to hit body than head? Helmet with higher durability than armor won’t help you to withstand enemy 2h axe’s Split Man, right?

>> These stay the same, except they, too, use lighter armor (they don’t need heavy armor when they have Nimble and generally stay furthest from action).
Why do they need Nimble(melee defense) when they generally stay furthest from action(melee threat)?

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

Your build has solid line fighters and varied roles. It looks reliable, easy to use, and easy to modify. It’s probably an amateur-friendly build. New players might pick up a lot of stuff from this build, as they can survive most situations and has various options for solving problems.

=====================================================================
@ Gaiz
I’m using my rally brothers fine but I have no idea how to allocate some remaining stats and perks.

[Stats growth]
Resolve – a must
Max fatigue – very useful but not necessary if you have two or more rally brothers that rarely move far away, because you will have infinite stamina when a rally brother rallies another rally brother.
????? – what else should they choose? They don’t need defense stats because they always stay furthest from action. They don’t need offense stats too because they’re too busying with rally.

[Perks]
After choosing the Rally the Troops, I still have 4 perk points. How should I spent them? Similar issue, they have no time to attack and rarely get attacked.

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

I assume “march block” means march & block, occupy specific tiles ahead of your opponent. Let me guess your purpose.
1) well positioned tanks gives better crowd control with their ZoC (Zone of Control)
2) acting ahead of enemy in first round enable your formation to advance in a tidy fashion

Yup; as I’ve said, you should be my spokesman. You articular my own thoughts better than I ever could!

ManaSeed wrote:

Too bad we still have no control in initial positioning of our units yet, or we can have some really tactical team setup.

I would like pre battle placement indeed. But if you have a sufficient number of tanks, controlling the tactical map is still possible.

ManaSeed wrote:

Not sure if I understand you right. You mean your berserkers won’t get stunned?

Yes, I want tanks to get stunned, not my DPS.

ManaSeed wrote:

Not you sure if you talking about Flat Top with closed Mail(265 durability), or Closed Flat Top with Mail(280 durability). Either way, shouldn’t you wear helmet with equal or lower durability compared to armor (Lamellar Harness, 210 durability) because enemy has higher chance to hit body than head? Helmet with higher durability than armor won’t help you to withstand enemy 2h axe’s Split Man, right?

Agreed; thanks for pointing this out. I will change.

ManaSeed wrote:

Why do they need Nimble(melee defense) when they generally stay furthest from action(melee threat)?

Nimble helps in two ways, even if my captains generally stay away from melee fights. First, things never go as planned, and scary melees can close in on you. Second, Nimble allows me to dispense with shields and heavier armor, so I can have higher Initiative and Fatigue, without sacrificing survivability (except to ranged attacks, which is not an issue at the moment).

ManaSeed wrote:

Your build has solid line fighters and varied roles. It looks reliable, easy to use, and easy to modify. It’s probably an amateur-friendly build. New players might pick up a lot of stuff from this build, as they can survive most situations and has various options for solving problems.

I think it works for both amateur and advanced players. Certainly, I don’t see anyone achieving the melee DPS I achieve from what I’ve seen. (In this respect, ironically, I think I am aided by having dedicated tanks, as well as the fact that my melee DPS wear reasonably heavy armor. The rationale is that having such safeguards in fact allows my melee DPS to take risks and go all out “beast mode,” whereas having all melee DPS wearing lingerie might make me more tentative.)

ManaSeed wrote:

@ Gaiz

I’ve been meaning to broach this topic for some time, but I did not know how to do it delicately. A disclaimer: I am neither homosexual nor excessively “politically correct” (an American parlance, not sure if you know this term, as I don’t know where you are from). Nonetheless, it mildly bothers me when you refer to everyone, however innocently or even affectionally, in terms reserved for homosexuals. Not sure if this term is normal where you come from, but calling people “gay” is not polite in my circles. It seems like you are a nice, pleasant person, so I am really perplexed by this address. It’s not a huge deal, and I know it’s online, but being incessantly called “gay” is a bit annoying. Kinda like how I object to seeing people using the “f” word needlessly online. I don’t know. Maybe I am old fashioned or prude or what not. At any rate, I am not requesting you to stop calling people gay or the like; I am just curious as to whether there is a background story or context to your decidedly odd form of addressing people.

*back to regular programming*

ManaSeed wrote:

I’m using my rally brothers fine but I have no idea how to allocate some remaining stats and perks.

[Stats growth]
Resolve – a must
Max fatigue – very useful but not necessary if you have two or more rally brothers that rarely move far away, because you will have infinite stamina when a rally brother rallies another rally brother.
????? – what else should they choose? They don’t need defense stats because they always stay furthest from action. They don’t need offense stats too because they’re too busying with rally.

[Perks]
After choosing the Rally the Troops, I still have 4 perk points. How should I spent them? Similar issue, they have no time to attack and rarely get attacked.

Stats wise, I’d go Melee Defense. Survival is too important for me, and you can’t always guarantee you won’t get gangbanged by melees.

Perkwise, I go Nimble, Battle Forged, Colossus, and Hold Out. Once again, this is survival oriented, and Nimble lets me wear lighter armor and go without shields, giving me more Fatigue and more Initiative.

[Invictus73]

Ok, switched my helmets to Nasal Helmet with Mail (200) on everyone except Swordmaster Riposte bots (Padded Kettle Hat) and ranged DPS ( Closed Mail Coif).

[ManaSeed]

>> Nimble helps in two ways, even if my captains generally stay away from melee fights. First, things never go as planned, and scary melees can close in on you. Second, Nimble allows me to dispense with shields and heavier armor, so I can have higher Initiative and Fatigue, without sacrificing survivability (except to ranged attacks, which is not an issue at the moment).
Hahaha, my rally brothers(captain) have far more armor than my attackers, I can’t recall the last time they get hit. Even if there are multiple Vampires, my captains might be the last brothers to be attacked.

>> Certainly, I don’t see anyone achieving the melee DPS I achieve from what I’ve seen.
How did you find out about that? Is there any website or link for players to post their battle results?

>> I think I am aided by having dedicated tanks, as well as the fact that my melee DPS wear reasonably heavy armor. The rationale is that having such safeguards in fact allows my melee DPS to take risks and go all out “beast mode,” whereas having all melee DPS wearing lingerie might make me more tentative.

You might already knew this. There are more or less 4 types of DPS builds:
1) pure DPS build ==> deal highest DPS against dummy target
2) highest DPS build ==> deal highest DPS per round
3) optimal DPS build (aka optimal build) ==> deal DPS where offense and defense has achieved perfect balance
4) stats maxout DPS build ==> deal DPS where all stats spent yield greatest value (diminishing return on stats is minimized to the least)

*note:
Unless personal preference, one should not choose (1) over (2) if he knows how to construct (2).
Similarly, one should not choose (4) if he can find out how to construct (3).

Since some of your brothers have 90 Melee Skill & Defense and you’re aiming to deal highest efficient damage, you’re probably assembling something between (4) and (2).

>>
Mana: Amateur-friendly build
Invictus: I think it works for both amateur and advanced players.
Not sure if the term “amateur-friendly” sounds misleading to you.

The deadliest weapon might be deadly for different reasons:
1) deadly effect
2) it is deadly despite who uses it, even a chubby baby

On the other hand, not all builds meant for advanced players are extremely strong. It might simply mean the build is highly personalized or customized that’s why it is meant for advanced players.

Your build has solid capabilities to resist defeat and it has variety in it, so I think it is very suitable to amateurs as they can learn from the variety as they survive battles. Likewise, Steel Cohort is not something I would recommend to amateur because I don’t want to scare them off with boring play style.

>> I’ve been meaning to broach this topic for some time, but I did not know how to do it delicately. A disclaimer: I am neither homosexual nor excessively “politically correct” (an American parlance, not sure if you know this term, as I don’t know where you are from). Nonetheless, it mildly bothers me when you refer to everyone, however innocently or even affectionally, in terms reserved for homosexuals. Not sure if this term is normal where you come from, but calling people “gay” is not polite in my circles. It seems like you are a nice, pleasant person, so I am really perplexed by this address. It’s not a huge deal, and I know it’s online, but being incessantly called “gay” is a bit annoying. Kinda like how I object to seeing people using the “f” word needlessly online. I don’t know. Maybe I am old fashioned or prude or what not. At any rate, I am not requesting you to stop calling people gay or the like; I am just curious as to whether there is a background story or context to your decidedly odd form of addressing people.

(゜д゜??) I don’t understand what you’re saying, at all.

Still, I went and googled the following keywords, which have no relevant results:
　　　Gaiz gay
　　　Gaiz urban dictionary
　　　Gaiz gay insult
　　　Gaiz gay relationship

I first seen the term “gaiz” on a forum. It was used by a young girl. Because there were both male and female members participated in the discussion, I found the term “gaiz” sounded more friendly than “guys”. It became my preferred term for “Ladies and Gentlemen”. So far no one has mentioned anything before.

( ・◇・)？Is there some kind of new non-mainstream culture which changed the meaning of “gaiz”?

[Invictus73]

ManaSeed wrote:

How did you find out about that? Is there any website or link for players to post their battle results?

No, Battle Brothers is not World of Warcraft! ;)

But I have seen a few screenshots and people talking rough numbers; and I am not seeing people doing my numbers. But again, it’s not WoW; and the sample size is tiny weeny! ;)

ManaSeed wrote:

You might already knew this. There are more or less 4 types of DPS builds:
1) pure DPS build ==> deal highest DPS against dummy target
2) highest DPS build ==> deal highest DPS per round
3) optimal DPS build (aka optimal build) ==> deal DPS where offense and defense has achieved perfect balance
4) stats maxout DPS build ==> deal DPS where all stats spent yield greatest value (diminishing return on stats is minimized to the least)

*note:
Unless personal preference, one should not choose (1) over (2) if he knows how to construct (2).
Similarly, one should not choose (4) if he can find out how to construct (3).

Since some of your brothers have 90 Melee Skill & Defense and you’re aiming to deal highest efficient damage, you’re probably assembling something between (4) and (2).

>>
Mana: Amateur-friendly build
Invictus: I think it works for both amateur and advanced players.
Not sure if the term “amateur-friendly” sounds misleading to you.

The deadliest weapon might be deadly for different reasons:
1) deadly effect
2) it is deadly despite who uses it, even a chubby baby

On the other hand, not all builds meant for advanced players are extremely strong. It might simply mean the build is highly personalized or customized that’s why it is meant for advanced players.

You are usually cogent and easy to follow, this kinda flew by me :(

ManaSeed wrote:

(゜д゜??) I don’t understand what you’re saying, at all.

Still, I went and googled the following keywords, which have no relevant results:
　　　Gaiz gay
　　　Gaiz urban dictionary
　　　Gaiz gay insult
　　　Gaiz gay relationship

I first seen the term “gaiz” on a forum. It was used by a young girl. Because there were both male and female members participated in the discussion, I found the term “gaiz” sounded more friendly than “guys”. It became my preferred term for “Ladies and Gentlemen”. So far no one has mentioned anything before.

( ・◇・)？Is there some kind of new non-mainstream culture which changed the meaning of “gaiz”?

Hmmm, perhaps I totally jumped the gun? I’ve never actually seen the word “gaiz,” and I automatically assumed it was an idiosyncratic spelling of “gays.” If not, I apologize. Sometimes I presume too much… :(

[ManaSeed]

>> sample size is tiny weeny!
For me, something is better than nothing, free information is always welcome as long as it is not biased or subjective. (that’s why we need stuff like statistics or battle results). Don’t worry, if you’ve seen the statistics, I will take what you say. I won’t belittle your information because it’s small sample. One sample might save you hours of testing.

>> You are usually cogent and easy to follow, this kinda flew by me
You’re usually good at understanding stuff too, are you feeling unwell today?

Aside from the joke, do I need to repeat or explain anything?

>> Hmmm, perhaps I totally jumped the gun? I’ve never actually seen the word “gaiz,” and I automatically assumed it was an idiosyncratic spelling of “gays.” If not, I apologize.
You don’t have to apologize ( ´ ▽ ` )ﾉ
In fact, I owe you a thank you ( ´ ▽ ` )ﾉ
Otherwise I would have never known how you actually think of me ( ´ ▽ ` )ﾉ
I’m just a rude and insulting person, hahahahaha ( ´ ▽ ` )ﾉ
In case you don’t get it, I’m still insulting someone at the moment, hahahaha ( ´ ▽ ` )ﾉ

[Invictus73]

Specifically, I found this classification confusing:

ManaSeed wrote:

You might already knew this. There are more or less 4 types of DPS builds:
1) pure DPS build ==> deal highest DPS against dummy target
2) highest DPS build ==> deal highest DPS per round
3) optimal DPS build (aka optimal build) ==> deal DPS where offense and defense has achieved perfect balance
4) stats maxout DPS build ==> deal DPS where all stats spent yield greatest value (diminishing return on stats is minimized to the least)

Among other confusing points, #1 and #2 seem the same? Normally, I would think a “pure DPS” build is the “highest DPS” build. I also don’t understand precisely what #4 meant.

[ManaSeed]

First, I’m not sure if the classification is meaningful. ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ Second, my communication skill is poor. (╯_╰) Third, a discussion is for those who are passionate so first and second point doesn’t matter. (￣︶￣)
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

1) pure DPS build ==> deal highest DPS against dummy target.

Everyone has Perfect Focus + Battle Flow + berserk + Melee skill + Ranged skill + Max Fatigue + Woven Tunic. If enemies stand right front of your brothers like dummy target at start of battle, this setup will deal the highest damage possible. Similarly, you can expect this build to yield highest DPS in simple mathematic calculations.

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

2) highest DPS build ==> deal highest DPS per round.

I said this before and you more or less agreed. Due to inability for brothers to stand on same tile, some are forced to detour thus can’t reach enemy timely. So you might face situation like this, with 4 DPS brothers it yields a total of 2000 damage in 3 rounds, BUT with 7 DPS brothers it still yields a total of 2000 damage in 3 rounds. Pure DPS build will advise you to go with as many DPS brothers as possible, while highest DPS build will ask you to stop adding DPS brothers when damage per round is maximized.

Also, enemies are not dummy targets, so wearing woven tunic might reduce players’ aggressiveness as they need to wait, keep distance or defend sometimes. This is not merely about psychology, it is also about survivability.

Similarly, there are other factors that prevent pure DPS build (mathematically highest DPS build) from being highest DPS build.

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

3) optimal DPS build (aka optimal build) ==> deal DPS where offense and defense has achieved perfect balance

I have no idea about the actual relationship of highest DPS build and optimal DPS build in this game so I MADE UP SOME NUMBERS for illustration purpose. Their difference could be something like this:

Highest DPS build
Offense 10/10 (in terms of damage per round)
Defense 5/10

Optimal DPS build
Offense 9/10 (in terms of damage per round)
Defense 7/10

Highest DPS build might clear a battle faster than optimal DPS build. But an optimal DPS team might defeat a highest DPS team if they fight.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

4) stats maxout DPS build ==> deal DPS where all stats spent yield greatest value (diminishing return on stats is minimized to the least)

Higher stats, higher effect. It’s true. But when your stats are high enough, it will be begin to yield diminishing return. For example, I made up some numbers:

90 melee skill = 74% average hit chance against all enemies = each stat point contributed to melee skill yields 0.8% hit chance
110 melee skill = 80% average hit chance against all enemies = each stat point contributed to melee skill yields 0.7% hit chance

It might happen because there is an upper limit/cap to hit chance. Similarly, this is the same for def stats.

Let’s take a look other stats. Let’s say Initiative. It has less meaning when your Initiative is too high. As long as you’re faster than enemy, it doesn’t matter if you’re a little faster or a lot more faster. But who doesn’t want highest initiative? It eventually come in handy or make a difference when your brother is tired. But stats maxout DPS build will suggest you to spend your stats point on other stuff when your initiative is quite efficient.

I think you can differentiate stats maxout DPS build with pure DPS build and highest DPS build. But you might be wondering the difference between stats maxout DPS build and optimal DPS build. Which isn’t my team optimal when all stats are as efficient as possible? Because you might not be choosing the right stats, using the right people, right weapon & etc.

It is easier to construct the stats maxout DPS build while it is far harder to construct optimal DPS build (probably the hardest build to construct as you need to know almost every single little thing). If you know exactly what to increase, how much to increase, which roles to use, you can turn stats maxout DPS build into optimal DPS build.

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

P.S.
I have no idea how to construct optimal DPS build. But I suspect it will involve 9 pages of excel and a lot of charts.

[Invictus73]

Mana,

Thanks for your detailed explanation. Now I perfectly understand your classification! :)

[Invictus73]

A radical change in my team:

The new update makes Swordmasters useless, so I’ve dismissed them.

Going with 4 Sellswords ranged DPS, 2 Hedge Knight melee DPS, 4 Hedge Knight tanks, and 2 Adventurous Noble captains now.

[Author]

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