Topic: Pip's Big List of Stuff, round 2 (Gobbos!)

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  • #6253
    PipBoy
    Participant

    Theme music–https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCgPZDuVgpI

    Imma get right on this. First, played over 100 days on goblin patch on a single game. Lost a lot of mans, but got the hang of all the changes and “beat” the game (black obelisk).

    Obviously, this patch forces players to change the way they play and that’s fine. Personally, I don’t think gobbos are that difficult, especially after you get all 4 of your crossbowmen those giant ballistas from goblin overseers and kill 8 gobbos on the first turn.

    Bwaha.

    Player perception is why gobbos are difficult. All games ever have used gobbos as cannon fodder, so when players encounter them in BB, they expect the same and then get the shit kicked out of them.

    This is good, but it does throw progression off a little. Let’s look at gobbos in depth.

    Gobbos are:
    1. Dodgey
    2. Hitty
    3. Throwy
    4. Flanky
    5. Shooty
    6. Poisony
    7. Squishy

    I love that they flank, use poison, and all that stuff (seriously the AI is great, well done). I think the problem is #7. They’re not squishy ENOUGH. It’s hard to land a hit on them, and then they often live through it. Goblins should be more squishy.

    Orcs are meatshields that can wreck you if they hit you. Bandits are roughly the same as you. Undead overwhelm you. Goblins should be glass cannons.

    Point 2. They need more variety, maybe. A lesser version of goblin ambushers/skirmishers could make earlier battles more of a learning experience without having to restart your game.

    Also, option to use 1 medical supply to remove poison in combat maybe?

    Nit-picking time:

    Change starting level to 0, not one. Ending at level 11 bothers me. I like that Battle Brothers “go to 11” but ugh, odd numbers.

    Werewolf armor event needs to fire sooner/more often. I had the requirements for it for over 100 days of play before I got the armor, and by that time it was clearly obsolete.

    Dogs are…well, underwhelming? I’ve stopped using them as anything other than emergency meatshields for my archers. Why waste 400 gold to chase down that goblin? I’m risking 400 gold for what, another kill? On top of that, since I can’t direct them, they get in the way of a Battle Brother who could deliver the finishing blow. I propose you let us control them, but leave them just as weak as they are now.

    I love the named items, but they’re, well, underwhelming just like the dogs. Some of them aren’t even as good as top-tier weapons.

    Serious Concerns:

    Stats need some reworking. Here’s why

    My party is this
    1. Captain, lets units start at Confident
    2. 2 greatsword users (highest casualty rate, the poor bastards)
    3. 4 crossbowmen (with the goblin giant crossbow)
    4. 5 shield bros with axes (armor)/cleavers (zombies)

    Everyone gets Hold Out!, because starting the battle with +10 to stats is amazing. The crossbowmen can soften up the enemy so much that often more enemies end up fleeing after the first turn.

    Once I got everyone to level 11, I saved my game, ran up north and did the Black Obelisk fight. 37 enemy units. I lost one man. I consider this “beating the game” as it is right now.

    Every level up I always do the same stat increases, on every man.

    1. Main attack stat (melee or ranged)
    2. Health
    3. Fatigue

    Resolve is basically worthless, as long as you avoid/play smart around Lost Souls (100+ days in, never seen one of them yet). Initiative is meh and you don’t need defense when you hold a good line and have enough health to take a hit or two.

    So every stat increase goes to the same stats over and over and every battle brother essentially follows the same perk progression.

    I use roughly the same spec for my 2handers, shields and archers. Now, I know the perk system is going to be reworked, so I won’t harp on that. It’s the stats that are really bothering me.

    I’m not sure what the answer should be, either. Maybe something like Silent Storm, where stats just increase as you use them, “classes” have different stat growth and they eventually cap out? This takes away from player choice (you still get perks though), but gives a much more balanced and organic progression.

    Right now, I don’t feel like my stat choices really matter, because it’s the same 3 for every character–and clearly it’s working.

    On the same vein, I always end up using the same weapons too. I feel bad hiring a swordsmaster and taking away his sword, but hey, there are better weapons, man. Maybe something like weapon specializations? So Brother X can really focus on being a pro with a morning star and not have to end up using the same weapons as everyone else?

    PS
    I love your game, despite my bitching :D

    PPS
    I played a lot of Silent Storm while waiting for this patch…

    #6254
    PipBoy
    Participant

    A couple notes on “end game”

    With the crew I mentioned in the first post, most fights at higher levels go like this.

    1. Hold.
    2. Hold until enemies get in range of crossbowmen
    3. With high skill, and the goblin ballista, a crossbowman can kill 2 enemies on the first round, with a bit of luck. (+4 AP on kill, +50% damage on kill)
    4. Wait 2 turns if needed for enough targets to get in range.
    4b. Work your archers in pairs. Archer 1 shoots, if he doesn’t kill, archer 2 can get the kill and the buffs and easily score another kill (2 kills), repeat with archers 3 and 4. If you’re lucky, each archer kills with the first shot (easy with bandit thugs, ghouls or other unarmored enemies) and you can kill 8 enemies on the first round. Boom, battle won.
    5. Shieldwall up to reduce throwing weapon damage and pot-shots from snipers.
    6. Werewolves, goblin riders and ghouls get wasted, because they all move fast enough to get in range of all your archers.
    7. Any enemies that hit your shieldwall get cut to pieces.
    7b. Use the greatsword, it’s got so much more versatility over the greataxe.
    7c. Shield bros should carry axe+cleaver and maybe an extra shield.
    7d. Archers get another pack of bolts+noble sword/shield (just in case)
    8. By this point, enemies with morale should be breaking. Often parties of bandits start running after the first round.
    9. Break wall, unleash dogs, chase down any survivors.
    10. Go back to the tavern for ale.

    There are only 3 things this doesn’t work as well against.
    1. Massive number of enemies, such as the Black Obelisk. I still won, but it was rough and I had luck on my side. Vampires really fuck up your archers and fatigue will creep up on you. I had a lucky break in their lines and rushed a bro out to disrupt the necromancers.
    2. Orc warriors/warbosses. So much armor. Not unbeatable, but you have to play really smart as opposed to the lazy archer style.
    3. Lost Souls. 100+ days, never saw a single one. Not sure how this team would work against them, because I keep morale fairly low.

    At level 11ish and once you chase down enough goblins to get 4 of their crossbows, this team can waltz through anything except the above. It feels a bit meh, because every battle brother essentially loses any personality, because in order to get this group, you have to stat/equip them all the same. Because of the way stats work, the swordmaster that you paid thousands of gold pieces for doesn’t really shine much more than the farmer you paid a couple hundred for.

    #6260
    PsenBattlePsenBattle
    Keymaster

    Interesting read, really enjoyed it :)
    PS: Did you kill all the other “final” locations apart from the Obelisk? That one is just the undead version.

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    #6262
    PsenBattlePsenBattle
    Keymaster

    Nerdrage over here… I took like 20 Minutes to answer all of your points and now the internet killed my posting when I published it :(
    grr heres a very short list of what I wrote:
    – Perksystem and stat system will be intertwined in a way that will make for a lot more interesting choices
    – An Early game Goblin should be added but whe are hesitant to do it now, as all faction progression will be reworked in the worldmap overhaul anyways
    – Named Weapons are just some candy until we get to implement legendary weapons. Stat wise they are always the best weapons in their category. If any named Noble Sword isnt straight up better than a normal named sword, thats a bug.
    – Silent Storm is awesome :) We need more games like that!

    Sorry for the short version, but my time is limited :(

    I hope you still enjoy this unfinished version of the game. Theres a lot more to come :)

    Cheers!

    Overhype Studios - Let´s roll!

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    #6281
    PipBoy
    Participant

    PS: Did you kill all the other “final” locations apart from the Obelisk? That one is just the undead version

    Not yet. The semester just started :(

    – Perksystem and stat system will be intertwined in a way that will make for a lot more interesting choices
    – An Early game Goblin should be added but whe are hesitant to do it now, as all faction progression will be reworked in the worldmap overhaul anyways
    – Named Weapons are just some candy until we get to implement legendary weapons. Stat wise they are always the best weapons in their category. If any named Noble Sword isnt straight up better than a normal named sword, thats a bug.
    – Silent Storm is awesome :) We need more games like that!

    Sorry for the short version, but my time is limited :(

    I hope you still enjoy this unfinished version of the game. Theres a lot more to come

    Sweet! And yes, I am enjoying the game, if I wasn’t, I wouldn’t write long posts about it on the forums :D

    Keep up the good work!

    #6282
    Oggiemango
    Participant

    Agree with most of what you said PipBoy! :) I have put some suggestions about the perk system in my game improvement suggestion today too.

    #6298
    PipBoy
    Participant

    From another thread

    Now we added the Great Goblin City, the Fortress of the Warlord (Orcs) and the Raiders Stronghold (bandits).
    These are absolute Endgame Locations. I suggest all bros should be lvl 11

    So, as a new answer to your question: yes, I’ve done Raiders Stronghold. Honestly, it was so easy I didn’t realize it was an endgame place. I haven’t discovered the other two yet. I cleared a pretty big Goblin place awhile ago, so it might have been the GGC.

    I’m not complaining about the difficulty, mind you. I’m pointing out that building a kickass team takes away from the personality of your Bros. And I’ve tried building a team where I maintain “personality” and it’s simply not as effective.

    Obviously, not every build will be viable in the completed game. I also don’t know what you have planned for the perk/stat upgrade, so I look forward to that :D

    #6302
    PsenBattlePsenBattle
    Keymaster

    I also don’t know what you have planned for the perk/stat upgrade, so I look forward to that 😀

    I absolutely feel your concerns. We decided not to fiddle around anymore with the actual perk system, because it works okay.
    I really want to share more detailed info on what we have planned for the new stat/perk system, but Its still too early.
    Infos will be shared in time :)

    Cheers!

    Overhype Studios - Let´s roll!

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