Topic: "Some Necrosavants"

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  • #21197
    hruza
    Participant

    It’s a game, not a simulation. ;)

    It’s a game set in the historical setting.

    #21200
    mrbunnyban
    Participant

    It’s a game, not a simulation. ;)

    It’s a game set in the historical setting.

    Ghouls, orcs, magic… the setting in BB is hardly historical! And talking about simulation or lack-there of, there is no penalty for not sleeping every day because it would be boring to wait for your bros to sleep everyday. There is no penalty for not getting a balanced diet. You cannot really survive on only grain everyday, but the game doesn’t care. Managing the diet of your company is not the focus of the game. Do I need to go on? Gameplay is more important than realism.

    I think what you are trying to say is something like the possible danger of encountering something you absolutely cannot fight in the early game ADDS to the excitement and how it adds to the flavor of the game experience and makes your victories feel sweeter. Horrible things happening to you through no fault of your own is something you’d expect in a game of the harsh life of a mercenary company. Or something like that. Hrm. I think I can accept that.

    #21201
    hruza
    Participant

    Ghouls, orcs, magic… the setting in BB is hardly historical!

    Swords, spears, shields, noble houses, witch hunters peasants, castles, knights, monks…

    From homepage of the game:

    Features
    – Manage a medieval mercenary company in a procedurally generated open world.

    That’s the very first one in the list. “Medieval” is name of the historical period.

    Btw, ghouls, orcs and magic are all part or based on European medieval folklore. As are vampires, werewolves, undead and so on. Today most of us don’t believe in existence of these things and beings but for medieval people they were very part of their life.

    And talking about simulation or lack-there of

    I newer said this game is simulation. That’s not what I meant. I said it is based in the Medieval setting. Being fantasy and being based on something does not exclude each other.

    there is no penalty for not sleeping every day because it would be boring to wait for your bros to sleep everyday.

    That’s called abstraction.

    There is no penalty for not getting a balanced diet. You cannot really survive on only grain everyday, but the game doesn’t care. Managing the diet of your company is not the focus of the game.

    My mercs sure complained about monotonous diet, I got event in my very first play through. I have never found out if there is some negative effect about it because I tried to diversify food since.

    I think what you are trying to say is something like the possible danger of encountering something you absolutely cannot fight in the early game ADDS to the excitement and how it adds to the flavor of the game experience and makes your victories feel sweeter. Horrible things happening to you through no fault of your own is something you’d expect in a game of the harsh life of a mercenary company. Or something like that. Hrm. I think I can accept that.

    Exactly. Glad we understand each other after all :) Challenge is big part of this game and why it is so good.

    #21205
    Sekata
    Participant

    Guis, we’re all friends here.

    But sure, forests are dangerous. I usually try to avoid them, but the terrain generation made that incredibly difficult. I usually expect to be jumped by a pack of werewolves, an army of bandits or ghouls. I take exception when the game thinks it’s appropriate to spawn an end-game enemy in a relatively large group for the enemy type on day 39.

    The devs have a passionate community of free beta testers. If they wanted they could aggregate saves from the forum during certain days to get a good feel for typical progress and balance accordingly. I’m absolutely not the best BB player. I’m probably not even good. But 5 necrosavants on day 39 just seems bad outside of any sort of quest/reward loop.

    Admittedly, I do also favor gameplay over realism. Realistically no one recovers well from a broken knee cap, or a deep abdominal cut in a similar time period and the whole company has died of dysentery and infection. Also, no mention of water or clean supply. These are gameplay design decisions, and are made to prevent the management part of gameplay from becoming tedious.

    #21211
    hruza
    Participant

    Did you recover from your disaster? I have just got owned while attacking bandit camp. 11 brothers out of 12 did not make it out, including last remaining companion, all my archers and standard bearer. I have also lost one unique artifact and crypt cleaver. One more brother deserted right after battle. Now I am sitting with 3 remaining brothers in a tavern getting drunk. At last I still have some spare equipment and decent war chest.

    I ques I should have to look at it from the brighter side, time to start recruiting those more expensive backgrounds.

    RIP all the fallen brothers.

    #21220
    Sekata
    Participant

    Did not end well. I spent all my money at the temple and didn’t have the extra coin to recruit or pay brothers. I think you have a greater tolerance than me. Even when I do play Iron Man, I tend to avoid conflicts that I’m not sure I can trounce. I prefer to hold all of the cards, which isn’t entirely realistic, especially in a game as rng heavy as bb. By the time I usually opt to take on orcs in large numbers, at least 4/6 front line brothers are levels 8-11.

    #21222
    Djxput
    Participant

    Sekata – joined this forum just to reply to you…

    I’ve only played veteran Ironman since buying the game and I’m quite addicted. Really enjoy the concept. Basically a punishing tactical mount and blade game. Anyways… Back to necros … My 2 highest day groups made it to days 40s and 30s something both destroyed by necros. One a wondering party of 3 that like you I could not outrun and actually caught me 2x and after 2 retreats in a row my party was done. And the second group I tried to fight em … Ya didn’t end so well.

    To be honest the first group I cheated and found my save file and tried to run instead of fight because it didn’t go well but as stated still didn’t go well. Was left with One man after everyone left.

    Something really needs to be done about those… Not fun. My recent Ironman game half my party just got killed but it was all fair – meaning at least I had a chance. And I’m debating about starting again. Got stuck in the swamps vs raiders and 2 poachers. Even thou I outnumbered them they took down some if my best men.

    #21244
    hruza
    Participant

    There is no penalty for not getting a balanced diet. You cannot really survive on only grain everyday, but the game doesn’t care. Managing the diet of your company is not the focus of the game.

    Heh, just got event: “Your purchases of diverse foods has the men gleefully chowing down and feeling good about life” -all brothers have “in good spirit” morale. I ques there is some event for having monotonous food too with some negative consequences.

    #21255
    Sekata
    Participant

    @Djxput

    Glad to have you on the Forum!

    Most of the things in-game are reasonable. I expect to take losses against 4+ Orc Warriors when I take a mission to kill them, but I’m with you on necrosavant generation. The rewards for killing them are never proportional to the damage taken by your band either.

    I play my games for the fun and challenge, but I’m a bit torn about Iron Man in BB. At the moment it feels balanced for overwhelming punishment rather than gameplay that rewards tactical world map decisions. Half of the good choices are drowned in bad rng quest twists and bad combat rolls.

    For example, I really wish the enemy weapon generation was a bit more tweaked. Fighting a group of bandit raiders with full chainmails/shields and 2-3 pikemen is not the same as fighting some with leather armor and weapons only. A marksman with a crossbow is way more dangerous than a marksman with a bow. I’m under the impression that the game takes the designation “Bandit raider” and randomly generates equipment with no restriction placed on the number of more dangerous weapons or effective armor generated.

    There are meaningful designations. Hedge knights always have heavy armor, Fallen heroes pose a predictable amount of danger. There’s no question about what weapon a swordmaster or necrosavant will be using. Even undead legionares are predictably a mix of pikemen and shieldbearers. Just way too much variation in bandit raiders/marksmen and that can be a death sentence in early game quests. On the spectrum of gambling vs gaming, BB leans a bit too far towards the former to be save scum immune imo.

    #21256
    Sekata
    Participant

    There is no penalty for not getting a balanced diet. You cannot really survive on only grain everyday, but the game doesn’t care. Managing the diet of your company is not the focus of the game.

    Heh, just got event: “Your purchases of diverse foods has the men gleefully chowing down and feeling good about life” -all brothers have “in good spirit” morale. I ques there is some event for having monotonous food too with some negative consequences.

    There is a penalty for only buying grain too btw. After buying nothing but grain since it’s so cheap for about 20 days I got an event with dissatisfied brothers and the gist of it was “Can we at least have a little meat every now and again?”

    #21266
    Namespace
    Participant

    Hey. Me again.

    There is a penalty for only buying grain too btw. After buying nothing but grain since it’s so cheap for about 20 days I got an event with dissatisfied brothers and the gist of it was “Can we at least have a little meat every now and again?”

    If you buy say some cured venison that doesn’t spoil for ages and literally only buy ground grains instead you will not get them dissatisfied even if they don’t touch the venison.

    As for the original topic here. In one of my recent campaigns I first seen a pack of 5 necrosavants annihilate a group of 12 raiders at around day 20. At around day 30 they actually caught me and I had to retreat. 5 backliners in light armor don’t really stand a chance there. Luckily I managed to recover after 2 days of treating wounds. There were 2 or 3 undead camps close to the place where I got ambushed. I first discovered them at around day 10-15 where 2 of the camps had ancient legionaires and a few/some necrosavants. I may have been able to take on 2-3 necros with auxiliaries but no way with legionaires so clearing out the camp to prevent more spawns was not an option.
    Oh yes, this was in the center of the map right next to some main roads and rural villages where I would have gotten a lot of easy contracts for the early game. I really think Necrosavants should only spawn as roaming troops in the mid to late game but definitely not this early.

    For example, I really wish the enemy weapon generation was a bit more tweaked. Fighting a group of bandit raiders with full chainmails/shields and 2-3 pikemen is not the same as fighting some with leather armor and weapons only. A marksman with a crossbow is way more dangerous than a marksman with a bow. I’m under the impression that the game takes the designation “Bandit raider” and randomly generates equipment with no restriction placed on the number of more dangerous weapons or effective armor generated.

    I agree. With marksmen especially. I think Crossbows need a rework. At least remove Crossbow Mastery from Bandit Marksmen. It is really frustrating to lose a guy to a lucky shot or two in a row. There is absolutely no fun in that. I like losing if I make mistakes, not because I rolled a 1 on a d20.
    Also Crossbows are kinda garbage in player hands because of their limited damage potential compared to a warbow that can shoot 3 times in one round with berserk. I still try to make crossbows work but usually I am better off going for a polearm instead – because they can attack twice in a round if berserk triggers, crossbows don’t really profit from berserk.

    If we had crossbows use 3 AP to shoot and 5 AP to reload, the only difference would be that we could run 2 tiles after reloading instead of just one, however berserk would actually make a difference.
    Round 1: Shoot (kill), Reload, Shoot.
    Round 2: Reload, Shoot (kill), Reload.
    It would still only be half as many attacks as with a warbow but at least we would get something out of berserk. Just. Don’t give berserk to Master Archer..

    #21268
    Sekata
    Participant

    @Namespace

    I’m with you. Crossbows (especially the normal tier non-light crossbow) should either be much more uncommon or the weapon re-worked. With +15% to hit and good armor pen, it’s really frustrating that 4-5 crossbowmen will spawn at a time and annihilate your team. Solutions could be

    1. Tone the weapon down.
    2. Make them less common.
    3. Or tweak the stats on the actual units.

    They have such high initiative that it’s pretty hard to get the drop on them. Some of them even seem to have rotation, meaning they’ll just dance out of the way and shoot you from behind their buddy. Love the game, but it needs a dedicated balance patch.

    #21283
    Teslarod
    Participant

    After some major tweaking with my builds and a test run Crossbows are a main factor I have to consider in every single build. My Archers and Polearms all take Colossus, Battle Forged and Anticipation just to minimize the odds of getting 2 shot by Arbalesters later on.

    Found a workable solution (see the thread Ranged Balancing) and am doing very well so far. Crossbows could actually use a rework or a buff. I remember the glory days of Crossbow swapping, shooting 3 Bolts on the first turn. Wouldn’t even be all that broken with all the Undead, Orcs, Goblins and Noble House troops around.
    Maybe Crossbows should still do half damage if stopped by a shield and be 1/3 less common.

    #21284
    hruza
    Participant

    Or bring kite shields with you when you face them. Bringing some bows with you, ideally along with brothers with bow specialty helps too.

    If you find bandit marksmen OP, I wonder what’s your opinion about mercenary or faction crossbowmen who come with actual armor and heavy crossbows.

    Bandit marksmen have a good skill and perks, but they lack armor. They also come with the mixture of lv.1 and 2 bows and crossbows. Moreover half the bandits don’t use shields. That is major weakness which can be exploited. Withdraw your troops so that they are either out of the range of enemy missiles or form protective shield wall. Pelt his unshielded troops with missiles while your ranged units are out of the range of his. If you use crossbows, you can use tactics where you step forward to fire, step back and reload next turn, firing every second turn. At some point enemy will either charge you or bring his ranged unit forward, exposing them to your ranged. When they charge, draw them out, preferably somewhere where you can use terrain advantage for your ranged. Then counter charge. At that point they are usually stretched out and can be dealt piecemeal. Send one or two brothers with shields around the flanks to threaten his ranged unit if he still have some and situation permits.

    Also utilize bushes for hiding your ranged inside. If they can’t see you, they can’t hit you. Another thing to look for is terrain protection given by tings like trees or rocks. If you place your ranged next to it, it will provide cower protection from certain angles while allowing you to shoot in there. It does come with blind angle but it’s protective radius is much wider -basically full 180 degrees.

    Another thing is that AI is reluctant to shoot at targets which are engaged and obscured by AI own troops. So once you charge, make sure you close distance fast.

    You shouldn’t underestimate ranged defense, both stat wise and perk wise. This is easy to omit because many factions in game does not utilize ranged. Then when you come against force which use lot of ranged, like goblins, you are for a rude awakening.

    And the last tip related to enemy crossbows. Crossbows and other armor penetrating weapons are reason why you shouldn’t underestimate health stat thinking thick armor will do. Crossbow have damage of 40-60, of which 20-30 ignores armor. This means that it can basically two shot your brother if you did not invest in his health stat. If it hits head, it can one shot brother with health under 45. Heavy crossbow is even more dangerous.

    Also remember, everything which you think is OP about bandit marksmen is true for your own ranged units too, if you bothered to develop them decently. Even more so since you can use better equipment. So it’s fair.

    #21285
    Sekata
    Participant

    I get what you’re saying @hruza , but your counterplay requires perfect generation luck on a combat encounter. I’ll go down the list.

    1. Mercenaries are not a common enemy. The player usually does not encounter them often over the course of the game. When I have, I see maybe 2 crossbowmen? They also seem to spawn much less frequently with shields, and in fewer numbers. Where a bandit engagement could be 12+, obstructing your ability to get to vulnerable crossbow units, Mercs tend to spawn in armies of 8-12 if you choose to engage them on the worldmap. I don’t often see them at all outside of that. Between the smaller unit count on the field and fewer units with crossbows. They aren’t much of an issue. Similarly, noble house units do not make up a bulk of engagements. When they are most commonly fought, during the end game crisis, the player has had at least 75 days to prepare. Even then, most noble units i’ve fought have had 3 arbalesters, 1 with the heavy crossbow. Not 4-5 shooting within the first few seconds of the first round.

    2. I use a counter archer with anticipation, dodge, heavy points in initiative/ranged def and bow specialty. That role has frequently been killed by concentrated fire. More often, the counter archer in training gets killed before getting specced and the process starts all over again.

    3. More on perfect generation, it’s not infrequent for maps to generate with the backline marksmen simply given the high ground. In the past this was counterable. It used to be that if you moved out of range, the markesmen would chase and expose themselves. I have not seen that in recent patches. So in a situation where by diceroll 3-4 marksmen are shooting you from high ground and your own ranged troops don’t have the range to counter, what are you proposing to do? Don’t get me wrong. Challenge is good. A fight like this every now and again is great, but not every other fight.

    4. Bringing kite shields is fine in theory, but it also means that once your shields are engaged in melee combat (where your frontline spends most of its time) they have sacrificed a major stat to deal with the skirmish phase. So it basically boils down to pick your death, ranged or melee. In a scenario where your entire frontline has kite shields, but you don’t have a capable archer/marksmen with bullseye and a few more levels, you’re in for a slogfest with a high chance of losses one way or another.

    5. Bandit marksmen lack armor, but I’ve mentioned that they have rotation. The AI is smart and crossbowmen usually take cover. When caught, they often rotate out. On top of that, any single brother attempting to close with backline marksmen is usually focus fired and rendered incapable of safely chasing. Bandit Marksmen have high initiative, so it’s extremely difficult for an armored brother with a kite shield to actually catch up before being intercepted. The lack of armor is only a factor if you can actually close the distance before heavy damage is done. That doesn’t happen too often, and again, untrained archers are often clusterlucked by 3-4 marksmen before developing skills to counter them.

    Wardogs? Well yea, send him out. If you’re lucky, he’ll run after the enemy marksmen and not a shield brother. Another dice roll.

    I’ve frequently been in engagements where the enemy raiders have a frontline with shields and chainmail. Raiders have a chance of spawning with leather armor, but they also have a chance of spawning with very good equipment. I build my essential ranged units with ranged defense and anticipation, but have still had some 1st round killed by 3-4 marksmen that were given high ground on spawn. This is a complete diceroll. It’s completely down to chance. A gamble.

    I’ve also been in situations where i’ll move a unit into a brush for cover and an enemy archer will still target him. The last time there was no brother on any adjacent tile. He hadn’t made an active move after moving into the bush and so shouldn’t have been visible. He was still shot. Moving an archer into a bush isn’t a catch all solution if he plans on shooting at all either, since after exposing himself he could be focus fired after getting a single shot off.

    Most of your counter play scenarios require time to implement (leveled brothers), or perfect generation circumstances i.e a poorly equipped bandit frontline. Bandit armies make up what, 40-60% of engagements in battle brothers? Losing a level 6 to a backline of marksmen that spawned on a hill within 5 seconds of the first turn doesn’t do much for me.. Especially when there’s a chance of that happening every few quests/encounters given how often you fight bandits. I’ve defended some of the game design decisions myself. I’ve said before, I want to believe it’s balanced, but when all of the counterplay for a given enemy requires perfect generation circumstances, unlikely given their frequency, you’re gambling and not gaming.

    I take a bit of exception to the suggestion that I’m simply not developing ranged brothers properly or I don’t understand the game. We’re talking enemy units spawning en-masse with a tier 4 perk. These are units that just spawn frequently in armies over the course of a game whether you’re prepared to deal with them or not. Was your army just set back hard by a tough orc encounter? Tough luck, here’s a bandit party with 4 marksmen. What about your army? You as the player are constrained by time and by roster space. You have logistical concerns like gold/replacements for other roles/equipment/brothers currently injured/brothers that need to be replaced. The AI? Well they just spawn out of randomly generated camps with high tier perks and no need to waste time ramping up. In the future when I can hire several brothers with access to weapon mastery perks with no concern for gold in the space of 1 in-game day, I’ll consider it fair. When bandits constantly need to go back and spend their restricted pool of gold in the temple, conserve ammunition, take time to spec properly, manage equipment with a limited roster, and spend time leveling up marksmen, I’ll consider it fair.

    I’ve survived Iron Man playthroughs and restarted out of boredom. Bandits have never ended my playthrough on their own. You don’t have to assume that I have no idea how to deal with this enemy type in order for me to have a problem with them. Believe it or not, it’s possible for someone to be capable of handling a challenge in the game consistently while acknowledging that it’s an unattractive part of the combat. It’s also possible for someone to disagree with you without just being a bad player. I don’t neglect stats like HP and ranged def. I’ve even killed goblins! I know right? There’s no way an idiot like me could manage something like that.

    If I’m being perfectly blunt, a few of the enemy armies need tweaking. I have a bone to pick with bandit marksmen because they are common but just because they’re one tall blade of grass among many, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t some others that could use some trimming too. I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again. The game needs a balance patch. Some armies need to be toned down, some need to spawn much later. Some enemies could actually stand to be a bit harder. I know right? Blasphemy. There’s no way a crap player like me would suggest such a thing.

    I’m a bit tweaked if it isn’t obvious. I can acknowledge different philosophies of game design. Some like RNG, some don’t. That’s fine. Having to assume the least of a player because he/she has a problem with the design crosses a line for me.

    The frequency with which bandit marksmen spawn, their high lethality, the lack of logistical concerns from AI camps means that just by simple eventuality they’ll kill a high level brother and turn the game into a grindfest of attrition. That wouldn’t be so bad if it didn’t take hours to retrain brothers to be prepared for more dangerous enemies in the endgame.

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