Topic: Spear Balance (Numbers and Tests Below)

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  • #27235
    dreamweaver
    Participant

    Hey Folks,

    I really love this game because you can play kinda however you want, even with min/maxing. One thing I’ve noticed on most streams/videos etc. No one uses spears. This caused me to try to see if I could make it viable for certain fights and if so how many. Original concept for spear strategy here. https://www.reddit.com/r/BattleBrothers/comments/irarjj/get_to_test_out_a_spear_build/

    TLDR: Spear damage is not even close to that of other 1h. Spears should not deal a lot of damage, but they should offer utility to make up for it. Even near max roll famed spears still don’t offer utility with perks. Spearwall can’t utilize hardly any perks during fights that matter. Suggestions: Have base damage but higher AID. Give reach advantage procs to spearwall.

    The link above is an attempt to not just have a roster of cookie cutter bros like I’ve seen on many, many streams and read about builds. I’m very happy with the necessary changes to flail! Now another weapon can be used instead of insta trashed. Creative rosters to me are more fun than running around with 12 BF 2H bros. So I tried a few versions or use cases for spears for utility.

    Use Case
    -Secure 1 Flank of formation from enemies and delay enemies from getting through, those that do are slightly softened (fearsome procs?)
    -Fights useful: Chosen (unless Unholds), Orcs, and Ancient Dead

    Let’s compare the damage of utility weapons

    2H
    2H Flanged Mace: Damage 75-95; AID 50%; AD 125& (Secondary skill reduces damage by 50%)
    2H Hammer: Damage 50-90; AID 50%; AD 200% (Secondary skill flat no damage debuff, hits up to 3 targets)
    Spetum: Damage 55-75; AID 25%; AD 100% (Secondary skill reduces reduces damage by 50%)

    1H
    1H Winged Mace: Damage 35-55; AID 40%; AD 110% (Secondary skill reduces damage by 50%)
    1H Warhammer: Damage 30-40; AID 50%; AD 225% (Secondary skill deals 50% more AD and exactly 10 HP)
    1H Fighting Spear: Damage 35-40; AID 25%; AD 100% (Secondary skill reduces damage by 50%)

    Comparing hits to death of spears to other utility weapons (attack #2)

    Just by having them side by side without doing tests, it’s clear that spear’s second ability deals far less damage than other utility weapons. That’s fine, every weapon and bro does different jobs. A tank isn’t expected to deal damage but take swings/hits. But what about dealing at least 1 HP damage to cause a fearsome proc? That is the telling part. Let’s compare vs. important fights that the spearwall brother would be used. Chosen, orcs, and ancient dead. Note: if Chosen have unholds then the spearwall strategy is useless. Let’s also say they are duel wielding and using duelist perk:

    Thanks to Turtle’s free damage calculator, I could run several scenarios and test them! https://steamcommunity.com/app/365360/discussions/0/2673381967528503827/

    Orc Warrior VS Fighting Spear 2nd attack

    HP = 200, Helmet = 360, Armor = 400
    Death in 52.69463 hits on average.
    StDev: 3.5881621914538817
    % Hits to die: [(40, 0.001), (41, 0.001), (42, 0.034999999999999996), (43, 0.116), (44, 0.392), (45, 0.9390000000000001), (46, 1.9789999999999999), (47, 3.459), (48, 5.315), (49, 7.3069999999999995), (50, 9.102), (51, 10.319), (52, 10.624), (53, 10.369), (54, 9.457), (55, 7.926), (56, 6.564), (57, 5.099), (58, 4.328), (59, 3.434), (60, 2.4699999999999998), (61, 0.756), (62, 0.008)]
    No chance of injury.
    No chance of heavy injury.
    First morale check in 33.16726 hits on average.
    6.38826 Fearsome procs on average.
    198.91461487750001 bonus armor from Forge on average.

    It will take >33 hits before 1 fearsome check will occur.

    Vs. An Orc Young
    HP = 125, Helmet = 120, Armor = 120
    Death in 15.44276 hits on average.
    StDev: 1.1945282966001742
    % Hits to die: [(12, 1.525), (13, 5.683), (14, 13.633999999999999), (15, 24.473), (16, 35.528), (17, 19.148), (18, 0.009000000000000001)]
    No chance of injury.
    No chance of heavy injury.
    First morale check in 2.85068 hits on average.
    8.15158 Fearsome procs on average

    It will take about 3 times on average of the orc young running into the spearwall before dealing any hp damage for fearsome.

    Vs. Chosen

    HP = 130, Helmet = 190, Armor = 230
    Death in 27.1523 hits on average.
    StDev: 2.0019602364802065
    % Hits to die: [(20, 0.001), (21, 0.22399999999999998), (22, 1.239), (23, 3.451), (24, 6.819999999999999), (25, 10.297), (26, 12.8), (27, 15.432000000000002), (28, 19.719), (29, 19.454), (30, 10.445), (31, 0.11800000000000001)]
    No chance of injury.
    No chance of heavy injury.
    First morale check in 13.21932 hits on average.
    7.34686 Fearsome procs on average.
    53.0660015275 bonus armor from Forge on average.

    13+ turns before a single fearsome roll.

    Okay, let’s throw in an okay famed 1h spear, like in the post I have on reddit.

    Social Distancer: Damage 43-51; AID 41%; Armor 100%

    Vs. Chosen
    HP = 130, Helmet = 190, Armor = 230
    Death in 19.07082 hits on average.
    StDev: 1.2716684705562964
    % Hits to die: [(13, 0.001), (14, 0.003), (15, 0.7100000000000001), (16, 3.504), (17, 8.690000000000001), (18, 15.579), (19, 25.826), (20, 37.96), (21, 7.727)]
    No chance of injury.
    No chance of heavy injury.
    First morale check in 5.8562 hits on average.
    9.85274 Fearsome procs on average.
    52.5516580875 bonus armor from Forge on average.

    It will take nearly 6 times of running into the spear before a fearsome proc will trigger. This is fairly reasonable as they may go into the spear 2-3 times in a single turn.

    Now Orc Warriors.

    HP = 200, Helmet = 360, Armor = 400
    Death in 40.13507 hits on average.
    StDev: 2.8520637155881317
    % Hits to die: [(31, 0.01), (32, 0.13), (33, 0.513), (34, 1.456), (35, 3.247), (36, 5.7090000000000005), (37, 8.307), (38, 10.772), (39, 12.0), (40, 12.177), (41, 11.437999999999999), (42, 10.391), (43, 9.332), (44, 8.807), (45, 5.210999999999999), (46, 0.49899999999999994), (47, 0.001)]
    No chance of injury.
    No chance of heavy injury.
    First morale check in 22.30086 hits on average.
    8.25647 Fearsome procs on average.
    197.25251134 bonus armor from Forge on average.

    22 hits before a fearsome check.

    Let’s compare the famed 1h spear to a 1h mace secondary attack.

    Winged Mace vs Orc Warrior

    HP = 200, Helmet = 360, Armor = 400
    Death in 38.92515 hits on average.
    StDev: 2.882525033196706
    % Hits to die: [(28, 0.001), (29, 0.006999999999999999), (30, 0.05), (31, 0.26), (32, 0.7929999999999999), (33, 1.959), (34, 3.773), (35, 6.085), (36, 8.684), (37, 10.513), (38, 11.809), (39, 11.985999999999999), (40, 11.644), (41, 11.077), (42, 9.790000000000001), (43, 7.388), (44, 3.3709999999999996), (45, 0.724), (46, 0.084), (47, 0.002)]
    No chance of injury.
    No chance of heavy injury.
    First morale check in 21.11379 hits on average.
    7.59022 Fearsome procs on average.
    197.95852770375 bonus armor from Forge on average.

    While still mostly useless for fearsome procs, the time for the morale check is much greater than the famed spear and even way more time compared to fighting spear.

    How about Chosen?

    Winged Mace vs Chosen

    HP = 130, Helmet = 190, Armor = 230
    Death in 18.77388 hits on average.
    StDev: 1.3359669133911727
    % Hits to die: [(14, 0.11900000000000001), (15, 1.322), (16, 4.691), (17, 10.822), (18, 20.197000000000003), (19, 30.612000000000002), (20, 25.627), (21, 6.274), (22, 0.334), (23, 0.002)]
    First injury in 18.58695652173913 hits on average.
    No chance of heavy injury.
    First morale check in 5.55148 hits on average.
    8.92395 Fearsome procs on average.
    53.011589991250005 bonus armor from Forge on average.

    It procs fearsome more than the famed spear and significantly more than a normal 1h fighting spear.

    I don’t think fearsome should proc on the first hit or the second, likely even the third. But maybe after 2 or so rounds of a big orc warrior shieldwalling and running into the spear and being held back they’d at least trigger one fearsome roll. I’ve mathed it out and a good FAT brother duel wielding with other utility like Footworking out when enemies get through the wall. It’s about 5 turns on average that this brother can delay enemies for. I also think the fearsome proc and spearwall reach advantage should proc when you’re holding a shield, it should be a duelist (risk/vs reward) situation.

    I haven’t mathed out what it should be, sorry. :D But perhaps lowering the damage of the spear and increasing just the AID will decrease the number of times enemies are hit by spearwall before they trigger a fearsome roll.

    Also, the spear is a weapon that offers an advantage because of its reach, being a reach weapon it should grant reach advantage stacks or if it’s too much MDEF, overwhelm the enemy.

    Thank you for reading!

    #27240
    ForceEchoForceEcho
    Participant

    Yes absolutely, spears have always needed a slight buff in my opinion too. They lose usefulness around mid game.

    "A plethora of peasents"

    #27241
    dreamweaver
    Participant

    Someone asked for 2H spear as well on Reddit. Here they are.

    Consideration: 2H spears, even famed 2H spears do a bit more with their utility attack with enough base damage. Note: This also needs to take into account that there is a higher cost for at least 5 turns of sustainability of spearwall due to the increased cost of 2H spearwall vs. 1h. 27 per time vs 23.

    2H Weapons Of Utility
    2H Flanged Mace: Damage 75-95; AID 50%; AD 125& (Secondary skill reduces damage by 50%)
    2H Hammer: Damage 50-90; AID 50%; AD 200% (Secondary skill flat no damage debuff, hits up to 3 targets)
    Spetum: Damage 55-75; AID 25%; AD 100% (Secondary skill reduces reduces damage by 50%)

    Spetum vs. Chosen
    HP = 130, Helmet = 190, Armor = 230
    Death in 16.26286 hits on average.
    StDev: 1.6305309585261076
    % Hits to die: [(11, 0.004), (12, 0.8), (13, 4.664), (14, 10.996), (15, 16.016), (16, 18.956999999999997), (17, 20.838), (18, 22.54), (19, 5.152), (20, 0.033)]
    First injury in 13.927605182960251 hits on average.
    No chance of heavy injury.
    First morale check in 8.22896 hits on average.
    3.73287 Fearsome procs on average.
    54.112381135 bonus armor from Forge on average.

    This is vs. a Chosen. Not terrible. But that looks more like after 3+ rounds of them running into the spearwall.

    Spetum vs. Orc Warrior
    HP = 200, Helmet = 360, Armor = 400
    Death in 30.88353 hits on average.
    StDev: 2.695321388382815
    % Hits to die: [(23, 0.02), (24, 0.27999999999999997), (25, 1.068), (26, 3.073), (27, 6.164), (28, 9.588000000000001), (29, 12.518), (30, 13.732), (31, 13.254), (32, 11.877), (33, 9.350999999999999), (34, 7.600999999999999), (35, 6.8870000000000005), (36, 4.026), (37, 0.553), (38, 0.008)]
    No chance of injury.
    No chance of heavy injury.
    First morale check in 19.7743 hits on average.
    3.25352 Fearsome procs on average.
    198.9691547125 bonus armor from Forge on average.

    There is not enough AID. This won’t deal any HP damage before the fight is already decided. My argument isn’t about usefulness, but utilization with perks compared to others.

    Famed 2H Spear.
    Consideration: The average stats of a brother’s background is usually taken into account when considering recruitment choices. I think the same should be done for famed weapons, as max rolling is very, very rare. And if that’s the case, then it’s saying this is useful with a max roll famed item. As I mention in an earlier post, it’s either a max roll famed spear or an average famed spear + 1-2 damage traits.
    I used https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/statistics/average.php to determine the average.

    Average Famed Spetum: Damage 63.5 (64) – 85; AID 33%; AD 115.1 (115)

    Vs Chosen
    HP = 130, Helmet = 190, Armor = 230
    Death in 12.46391 hits on average.
    StDev: 1.1974271795055023
    % Hits to die: [(7, 0.001), (8, 0.011000000000000001), (9, 0.299), (10, 6.338000000000001), (11, 15.665999999999999), (12, 24.129), (13, 31.967000000000002), (14, 21.055), (15, 0.534)]
    First injury in 10.441352348217606 hits on average.
    No chance of heavy injury.
    First morale check in 4.56438 hits on average.
    4.66809 Fearsome procs on average.
    55.055607569749995 bonus armor from Forge on average.
    Significantly better chance to proc against a chosen. And death in 12.4ish hits.
    Average Famed Spear Vs. Orc Warrios
    HP = 200, Helmet = 360, Armor = 400
    Death in 24.0594 hits on average.
    StDev: 2.17493883674678
    % Hits to die: [(18, 0.14100000000000001), (19, 1.086), (20, 3.925), (21, 8.225), (22, 12.537999999999998), (23, 15.101999999999999), (24, 15.439), (25, 14.202), (26, 13.419), (27, 12.049999999999999), (28, 3.7859999999999996), (29, 0.087)]
    First injury in 25.950570342205324 hits on average.
    No chance of heavy injury.
    First morale check in 13.55486 hits on average.
    4.11414 Fearsome procs on average.
    200.558660022875 bonus armor from Forge on average.

    13.5ish hits to hit HP is indeed better than the 1H spear. I wonder if spearwall takes into account duelist…interesting. Still, the HP damage is unlikely due to them shieldwalling then moving in.

    Average Famed 2H Flanged Mace: Damage 86.5 (87) – 109.41 (109): AID 58%: AD 140%

    Vs. Orc Warriors
    HP = 200, Helmet = 360, Armor = 400
    Death in 13.65885 hits on average.
    StDev: 1.062251364451754
    % Hits to die: [(9, 0.001), (10, 0.01), (11, 3.553), (12, 11.155), (13, 24.257), (14, 38.007999999999996), (15, 22.875999999999998), (16, 0.13999999999999999)]
    First injury in 12.637201234842939 hits on average.
    No chance of heavy injury.
    First morale check in 3.90841 hits on average.
    4.01524 Fearsome procs on average.
    203.417247635 bonus armor from Forge on average.
    See the discrepancy?

    Conclusion: Famed 2H spears fair better on average than 1H spears with the perk interaction, though not significantly, so. Rolling a famed spear isn’t guaranteed, neither is getting a average or great rolled item similar to rolling that great brother. And a bro doing this spearwalling (doesn’t include +20%) needs very high MAttack because of shieldwall move into ZoC.

    #27251
    ForceEchoForceEcho
    Participant

    If shieldwall md bonus was reduced by moving in the same round while shieldwall is active, that would be a decent indirect buff

    "A plethora of peasents"

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