Topic: Strategic map.

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  • #1960
    Sarissofoi
    Participant

    So I see some Lets play and I can tell that map looks empty. There is usual only few villages/towns/military outpost on the map and they are fairly away from each other. Its look really like a wasteland. I know that this is EA and you guys probably have things planned but
    can I propose few smaller locations for more flavoured map?

    Farm – big farm, place where you can buy some food, not connected to roads(unless there are two tiers of roads), weapons/armour very simple and limited in amount, spawn very limited militia for passive defence and no patrols, very limited pool of recruits with farm/labour background
    Some small quest proposition:
    >Sick family member – simple fetch quest go to nearby town/village get medicine(quest item) and go back, small reward
    >Lost cow/sheep – simple scout quest, no reward but one provide information about nearby monster/bandit den
    >For the rescue – find and destroy nearby bandit den with few bandits and rescue daughter/sister, small reward
    >Vengeance – find nearby roaming bandit/monster party or monster dean and destroy them, small reward
    #Provide food and some low reward/low risk quest also is easy targets for bandits/monster to attack. Destroyed can turn into bandit/zombie den.

    Mine/Logger camp – location where you can recruit some miners/lumberjacks(but not many). Only defensive militia, no patrols. Connected with roads(mines near mountains, logger camp near forest). Spawn caravans.
    Hunter camp – recruit hunters&wood people, buy food some bows and leather armour(but not too much). Spawn roaming hunters. In woods, not connected with roads.
    #Mostly provide some flavour for map.

    Road inn – on road between bigger locations. Small market but provide access to many different recruits and some missions. Well defended. Can spawn Adventures Band(armed patrol hunting actively bandits and monsters).
    #Recruit point mostly. Another flavour location.
    Some quest propositions:
    >Revenge – wounded bandit offer you information about their former companions, reward for killing his former boss
    >Secret treasure – somebody offer you cash for retrieving family heirloom from monster infested location

    Any thoughts? All comments welcome.

    #1961
    Malthus
    Participant

    I think this sounds interesting. And indeed the map does look a bit empty as it is right now. On the other hand these extra locations might have to start invisible as I don´t think it would be realistic to believe you know every little place in the world. So you find them while traveling and the map gets more alive the more you come around. A bit like Exploration in Skyrim.

    And then there can aswell be new contracts in the bigger cities:

    Do you remember M&B where bandits occupy little hamlets? Some folks might have get away to search for someone to help them. You then get the location and the job to fight and force the bandits out. —> Fight in a hamlet
    There might be a follow-up job possible. The bandits you have driven out were only a litte part of a bigger band in the nearby wildernis. Now the others are getting more men and prepare to revenge their fallen comrads. The townsfolk have nothing to protect themselves from the wrath of these criminals so they plead for your help again right after you saved the town in the first place.

    You mentioned mining camps. Then you could aswell add mines. Imagine those miners did without knowing mine right into a cave full of terrors. The mining camp goes silent and some time after this event, some merchants waiting for their wares in the near towns get nervous, asking you to find out what happens. You find a deserted mining camp and some corpses on the way to the mine. Those men seem to have fled from the mines. So this is were you are going. —> Good opportunity for a dungeon fight.
    After you destroyed what ever was in there you head back to the merchant in town and a while after he found some new miners to work there and you can again buy and sell stuff there and so on.

    Similar quests are possible for hunting/woodcutter camps beeing attacked by beasts like werewolfs.

    And something else I thought about. Later when there will be this invasion event happening. Bigger cities and towns once destroyed won´t be able to be rebuilt but I think those smaller locations could be if you manage to free them of whatever has took them over. And in the end they will be destroyed eventually aswell because you won´t have the time to save them all.

    That´s what came to my mind right now.

    "I am a Paladin!"
    >OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
    "OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

    #1962
    Jago
    Participant

    I think the world map is okay so far. There should be more unique sights, like the sea, a volcano, and lakes, to add some variety. That’s already planned and hopefully EA will be a success, so they can tackle this as well, sooner or later. The distances are good imo.

    A few more locations, friendly ones, sounds nice, but they shouldn’t be common.

    I like the idea with the mines. Another source of income for towns that has to be protected against bandits and a possible dungeon with monsters that dwell deep inside the mountains…
    Road inns would be cool as well, once resting mechanics are implemented.
    Farms on the other side are not interesting enough imho. Nothing really to do there, except a few low-reward-quests.

    As for bandits occupying hamlets, well, if the player razes a place, it could either disappear from the map, or is now inhabited by people from the closest town, providing more income. With this income towns get richer and can field more militia and protect their caravans better, and thus play their part against the great evil.

    #1963
    Sarissofoi
    Participant

    Farms are more like primary targets for bandits/monsters. Also main food supplier for towns/castles. Bandits extorting food/money or plundering and monsters eating people. Filler/target of opportunity/flavour etc.
    If countryside is safe you will see prosperous farms if not you will see burned ruins infested by bandits/zombies.
    Its way for bandits to get rich and famous(and more powerful) before facing bigger targets.
    Also they add some flavour to the map and possible quests in towns/villages.
    Like(branched quest tree):
    *(1)Investigate – food stop coming from farm check it, come back with report, small reward
    #Can be taken by bandits(A), monsters(B) or destroyed(C).
    **(2A)Free farm – if farm taken by bandits free it from them and save farmers, take information from them, come back to city,medium reward
    #Two options: It was roaming band of bandits:End quest
    It was part of bigger encampment
    ***(3A)Find and destroy – find bandit camp and kill them, return for reward with bandit leader head
    #End quest.
    **(2B)Eradicate monsters – kill monsters, come back for reward
    #Two options:It was part of bigger encampment (3BC)
    It was roaming band of monsters:skip to (4BC)
    ***(3BC)Find and destroy – find monsters den and kill them, return for reward
    ****(4BC)Escort new settlers – escort caravan that will start farm again, small reward when caravan reach farm ruins
    If farm destroyed skip to (3BC).

    Or even small fetch/escort quest.
    *Tax collecting – visit few (3 or 5 number can wary) farms and collect taxes from them, bring it back to town(castle)
    *Gather grain(forage) – visit few (3 or 5 number can wary) farms and get grain(quest item) from them, you are followed by small caravan that carry this grain, bring it back to town(castle)

    Its good idea if they are hidden at the start so exploring actually is rewarding(as finding stuff always bring some satisfaction).

    Also thing about patrol militias and villages/towns/military outpost. I think they should be besieged for some time before battle start. So actually they can rescued.
    Also it can be nice quest tree if company is send to relieve besieged town but can come to late.

    #1968
    Jaysen
    Keymaster

    I love this thread!

    Those are some really great ideas flying around here. I especially like the concept of more neutral, smaller, locations like farms and mines that add more life and opportunities to the strategic worldmap. Also the idea of offering new and more contracts at those locations is great.

    A quick disclaimer: We are reading all of this and carefully taking notes! As the Early Access Launch draws nearer we have a lot of communication to do on a lot channels so please do not be discouraged if we can not answer immediately.

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    #1970
    GOD
    Participant

    One of the problems I could see with this, with the current way the map is done, is that all the maps that I have seen so far are relatively small. So travel between locations tends to go by pretty quickly and there is not (yet?) an emphasis on the danger of travelling between places, outside of ambushes. Getting enough supplies to go from A to B seems to be more of matter of having enough money to buy supplies at the start and there’s not really a risk of running out midway. For these kinds of interactable sites to therefore be meaningful they’d have to make everything larger or ‘zoom in’ on the map, so to speak, with longer travel times and more space between places where you could put these things. This would also make cities more special and function a goal to reach, while making these kind of smaller locations more important, since you’d have to find ways to stock up while travelling from place to place. Otherwise the map would get cluttered fairly quickly and there would be no risk of running out of any kind of supplies.

    I agree that something like this would be very cool, though. Having something like farms opens up some nice opportunities for the player to interact with the world in ways that fit the setting. I recall it being mentioned that stuff like looting and pillaging in combination with something like a reputation system is one of the non-critical ideas that they were thinking of implementing. So say that you are travelling and about to run out of food. There are no nearby cities or fortresses, so you decide to visit some farms. Do you then:

    A – Trade them for supplies at inflated prices (these farmers can’t really afford to do away with their own food, since would they have already been forced to give part of it to whatever lords owns those lands – better make it worth their while). Maybe even hire a naïve farmhand?

    B – Raid them. Take some food and money, with a slight risk triggering a battle and you taking a reputation hit. In the case of a battle being triggered, you could have the enemy surrender after a randomised number of militia are killed (depending how rugged these farmers are). If surrendering conditions are too complicated, you could have there be a risk of one of your bros sustaining an injury.

    C – Kill ‘em all! Take all the food, money and other loot they have. Chance of triggering a battle with militia. No reputation hit because there is no-one left to tell anything (could have an alternative battle type where some opponents are trying to flee, so you have to kill them if you don’t want them to spread rumours). Does economic harm to the region depending on the number of farms, which could result in less supplies being available in the cities. The carnage attracts stuff like undead and beasts, which would then affect them in their own way (necromancers to raise the bodies, a pack of ghouls who grow stronger and more aggressive, etc). Could trigger events like a vengeful son hiring other mercenaries to hunt you down, if he managed to escape the battle.

    It would make for a dynamic way of interacting with the world, without telling the player that what they’re doing is good or bad. Just have your actions have logical consequences. So razing a single farm wouldn’t do much, but doing it too often could result in a ghoul infestation. It would also reflect how mercenaries have a historical tendency of looting and pillaging when they don’t get paid in time.

    #1971
    Malthus
    Participant

    Another idea regarding quests and questchains. Right now there are random locations that are on the map (i cannot recall right now, if the do respawn somewhere else after some time if they are destroyed or if they are finite) which spawn enemies and can be destroyed. That is a bit of a waste.

    Jago mentioned the idea of reusing sites after the player defeats the enemies inside them. This sounds like a good idea for some of these locations. Think of an old Watchtower oder small castle or fort which had been deserted for whatever reason. But now as the lands face the rising tide of a coming invasion it would be no bad idea to regarrison such places with military after they are reclaimed in order to get safety up in the region.
    Other things like forsaken woodcutter camps or mines could give more income if reclaimed and ofcourse be retaken by bandits or monsters resulting in new quests.

    Graveyards are an other story. Neither do they produce income – aslong as you are no graverobber ;) – nor do they serve any other purpose than getting the dead to rest. But i could imagine a questline starting in a nearby town. People don´t dare visiting their lost ones anymore because there are strange things happening, dark creatures spooking the graveyard. Some townsfolk even did not make it back from there. So you are hired to make it save again. (like the ordinary raze location quest) Then you uncover the secret behind what is happening there. A cult of necromancers is trying to build up an army of undead there. So you have to find out where they are operating from and put an end to them.

    Most sites would not have to be razed completely but could be reused in a different way depending on who holds them. For that part it would be nice to have more of your lovely art. For example a dark and spooky looking graveyard -like the one you use now- is infested with evil. And have it a bit lighter with green grass and flowers to show it is save, something this way. This could go for any location.

    "I am a Paladin!"
    >OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
    "OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

    #1972
    Sarissofoi
    Participant

    The Devs stated before that you can’t go into the Dark Side. So no raiding or pillaging.
    But it can make nice alternative playing when you play as bandit band and start as a bandit with access to bandits dens(when you can sell stuff and recruit folks) and being hunted by patrols and bounty hunters.
    That can be kinda funny. But it is definitely future if at all.

    About non perishable small locations that can be retaken or rebuild.
    Its great idea. I was thinking similar. So its make us two.
    Its should be a part of living world. But it definitely need be part of more complex system.
    The world will be more lively with more parties moving on strategic map.
    Not only caravans or patrols but also scouts(investigating things), witch hunters(looking for undead), bounty hunters(looking for bandits), Adventurers Bands(looking for some adventure), couriers, travellers, pilgrims, pedlars and traders moving around and some of them being prey for the evil forces.

    #1973
    GOD
    Participant

    The Devs stated before that you can’t go into the Dark Side. So no raiding or pillaging.
    But it can make nice alternative playing when you play as bandit band and start as a bandit with access to bandits dens(when you can sell stuff and recruit folks) and being hunted by patrols and bounty hunters.
    That can be kinda funny. But it is definitely future if at all.

    They did? I thought it was something they were still thinking about for possibly after Early Access? This is what I’m referring to. Did they change their minds recently?

    #1975
    Rap
    Keymaster

    Basically the game will always be about managing a mercenary company at its core. It’ll never become about managing a group of bandits/outcasts, as this would require quite different game mechanics to really do it justice. However, how exactly a mercenary company should behave in a gritty medieval world is quite open to debate. Here is an interesting thread with some ideas on where we could take this in the future, including some shady contracts that would involve raiding caravans.

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    #1976
    GOD
    Participant

    I was thinking less bandits and more how the player deals with a crisis. Short term loss or gain versus your long term interests. In this case: taking the financial loss, taking a reputation loss, or harming your long term interests. So running out of places to restock if you keep doing it would be exactly the point, while continuously taking reptutation hits would also practically end your game since no one will associate with you.

    #1977
    Sarissofoi
    Participant

    But restocking now is fairly easy.
    Food is plentiful and cheap and you can get enough money from fetch quests.
    There is no reputation or fame now so now it will be just choice of slaughtering few peasants to steal their food and few crowns.
    Not mention that pillaging will hurt you because you will local settlements weaker and poor so there will be less supplies, less gold for contracts, less militia to fend bandits/monsters, less items in shops. In current game it will be suicidal.

    BTW I think reputation or fame should be different statistics. Like Fame stats grown when you win battles and do quest so you are more known but people but reputation is influenced by your losses and completing quests non abandoning them etc and mean how ell you do your job.
    So some people will only join famous company(say nobles and well-equipped soldiers will not join band of unknown peasants) when other will join the only one with good reputation(like experienced soldiers don’t want to join company well know from high losses but more reckless desperate types don’t mind because they believe they will survive or are greedy enough to risk their life).
    Both stats can be going slowly back to neutral values so if you get some fame but then do delivery quests and rob some graves(you don’t want to people know this) then after some time you are not so famous and some guys will not join you or some contracts will be not offered to you.
    Local fame or reputation(like when you save this village from bandits for free or rescue local lord’s daughter from bandits) can be kinda company perks obtained in gameplay(so if you local hero in #ThisCity you have reputation and fame bonus when you deal in this place but it not help you when you move to another one).

    #1978
    Rap
    Keymaster

    I was thinking less bandits and more how the player deals with a crisis. Short term loss or gain versus your long term interests. In this case: taking the financial loss, taking a reputation loss, or harming your long term interests. So running out of places to restock if you keep doing it would be exactly the point, while continuously taking reptutation hits would also practically end your game since no one will associate with you.

    I know, and I quite like your example. That general idea of the player having to make tough decisions with logical (and somewhat randomized, for the sake of replayability) consequences is exactly where we want to go with the coming event system. This will also afford the player actions of less than exemplary morals – though to what extent exactly is still something we need to figure out. Sorry that I can’t answer more thoroughly to your very comprehensive suggestion, there’s just a lot going on right now.

    But restocking now is fairly easy.
    Food is plentiful and cheap and you can get enough money from fetch quests.
    There is no reputation or fame now so now it will be just choice of slaughtering few peasants to steal their food and few crowns.

    Indeed, it would require the introduction of a reputation mechanic first. Like you said, we might want to go with 2 values here. A ‘business reputation’ and a ‘moral reputation’. People might hate/fear you for the atrocities your men commit and not agree with your methods, but you might still be their best shot at getting a job done.

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    #1980
    GOD
    Participant

    But restocking now is fairly easy.
    Food is plentiful and cheap and you can get enough money from fetch quests.
    There is no reputation or fame now so now it will be just choice of slaughtering few peasants to steal their food and few crowns.
    Not mention that pillaging will hurt you because you will local settlements weaker and poor so there will be less supplies, less gold for contracts, less militia to fend bandits/monsters, less items in shops. In current game it will be suicidal.

    Precisely, hence my comment about adding more locations to the world map. I’m just throwing the idea out there now and agreeing with adding more locations, because I expect those things to either change as the game goes on (orc invasion!) or for new challenges to be introduced as development continues (larger map, events that affect supplies, etc.). It’s meant for when a desperate situation comes up and how you as the player react to that, rather than a mechanic that the player can rely on as an alternative play style. I’m also assuming that some sort of reputation system will be introduced to act as a check on taking and then throwing away contracts.

    I know, and I quite like your example. That general idea of the player having to make tough decisions with logical (and somewhat randomized, for the sake of replayability) consequences is exactly where we want to go with the coming event system. This will also afford the player actions of less than exemplary morale – though to what extent exactly is still something we need to figure out. Sorry that I can’t answer more thoroughly to your very comprehensive suggestion, there’s just a lot going on right now.

    No problem. I’m just making suggestions about stuff that I feel might become relevant in the long run. Planting the seeds in your minds, so to speak. :)

    As for the extent towards which to allow less than moral behaviour, the current atmosphere you have got going on to me seems to be brutal, but not depraved. Harshness without edgyness, so to speak. It’s the difference between getting decapitated by an orc warrior and getting decapitated by an orc warrior covered head-to-toe in skulls, having the orc piss on your severed head and then rape your still warm corpse.

    So my suggestion as for the players: yes to waiting for the militia to die so that you can loot the bodies; no to using villagers as incendiary pigs.

    Indeed, it would require the introduction of a reputation mechanic first. Like you said, we might want to go with 2 values here. A ‘business reputation’ and a ‘moral reputation’. People might hate/fear you for the atrocities your men commit and not agree with your methods, but you might still be their best shot at getting a job done.

    A reputation system like that could also lead to different kind of mercenaries becoming available to the player or maybe influence the asking price of certain mercenaries. An idealistic squire might ask for less at being given the chance to fight for a highly moral mercenary group, while a sadistic brawler might lower his price at the prospect of working with someone who lets him cut loose. Backgrounds, perks and maybe some hidden personality modifiers could all affect asking price or what kind of events they trigger.

    It could also affect the contracts. In that if you’re trustworthy, but a scumbag, people might come to you with dirty deals that they wouldn’t show to mercenaries with a high moral reputation. You would still get questionable offers as a highly moral mercenary, but the lowest ones are reserved for the less morally upright.

    #1982
    kushite
    Participant

    Like the idea of extra location types. I kind of feel they’d work best as a more vulnerable version of the current locations, things that are easy to lose but can grow back at a slow rate.

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