Topic: Things that are so dumb, that makes me sick
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I very much like concept of this game, but, if game pretend to be somewhat realistic, i see some issues there. So…
The issues you have are called “abstraction”. It’s like complaining about knight in chess being able to move only 2 tiles strait and one left or right when in reality knight can move in any direction.
Tactically this game is very elaborate chess.
Dumb thing number one:
Defensive abilities(shieldwall, spearwall, etc) cost AP and Fatigue. Furthermore, that cost even more than a strikes. How i can get tired just from hold my weapon and shield up? And even if so how it can be double, or even triple(!) more tiring than placing blows?First of all, using abilities in game have to have some cost, otherwise you would be using them all the time. What cost do you suggest instead?
Second, holding weapon and shield actually does fatigue, especially holding it in a combat ready position. Roman shield could weight up to 10kg. Some other shields are even heavier. Try holding 10kg with one hand in front of you about where your shield would be in expectation of attack. Try to hold 2.5m pole from hard wood above your head at the same time.
And third, you shouldn’t take names of these abilities literally. Or do you know how to make spear wall and shield wall all by yourself? Shieldwall in real life is locking shield with your other comrades in formation, same with the spear wall. You can’t create shieldwall and spearwall all by yourself. Not unless you have more then two hands.
My understanding of the shieldwall and spearwall abilities is that these are positions which utilize shield or spear defensively in the battle with emphasis to provide better protection compared to just holding shield and spear in front of you. That is, these are active, not passive positions. Hence they cost fatigue. As for why they cost more fatigue then normal attack, I believe it’s because they are continuous activity rather then just one time stab. You are able to react to several opponents while using them, as opposed to just single enemy with normal attack. hence increased cost.
Dumb thing number two:
Weak effects from encirclement. By itself, works pretty strange in situation “wall-on-wall”, when everybody face two opponents and,thus, everybody get encircled and debuffs, that very dumb.No, they actually makes perfect sense. If you have ever reenacted medieval foot battle, or watched one, you would realize that combatants don’t deal with just opponents they are facing, they can receive and deal attacks also to the guy left and right. And if enemy is using some sort of longer reach weapon from his back lines, then that something you are exposed to as well.
So single combatant in a battle line faces at minimum 3 opponents. Game mechanic is correct.
Dark age re-enactment with commentary
Dumb thing number three:
Miss hits, especially in “wall-on-wall” situation. Imagine that, to miss hit on a human size target right before you, you should be incredibly dumb. If you place a blow on a guy, that guy must parry(and suffer fatigue), or evade(and step away on free space). So, if you not have any free space to evade, not have a shield or a sword, you probably get hit, or at least your weapon get significant damage.Again, had you watched or participated in a reenactment, you would realize that fighting does not involve mindlessly stabbing or poking in the general direction of your opponent. You are attacking specific weak points on your opponent, form specific angles, because he is not standing in front of you not minding your blows. He is first of all positioning himself the way that it is as hard for you to land a hit on him as possible. This in the most basic form means that he is maintaining safe distance from you and your weapon. He will be also actively parrying your attacks with his weapon and shield, if he have one.
Therefore “miss” in the game does not mean that you have failed to hit “man size target in front of you” as you imagine. It means most of the time that enemy have foiled your attack.
And no, your weapon won’t get significant damage. If it would, you are using crappy weapon unsuited for battle.
Dumb thing number four:
No any pre-battle phase. Come on, that obvious. Your squad spawn at random landscape in a just 1-2 turn reach, with no any space or time for tactical movement.
How that work on ironman? Oh…Pre-battle is your formation/inventory screen. Yes, it’s fairly limited, but alternative would be to spend 10 turns in every single battle just to position yourself and your enemy.
Dumb thing number five:
Polearms hits second line through first. Seriously, how its work?This how:
I think you read my tesisis, but mostly skip or ignore the explanations.
“abstraction”
Of course its all about abstraction. Problem is, there not enough of it. I think, you agree, that engaged figure participate in combat, even if he’s turn already done/not yet started (there is another issue about current turn system, but not now) and enemy not just “teleport” to not engaged target(unsless its some of leap/dash/etc ability, of course), so target actually have time to react. And that’s where described problems come from.
Okay, lets start:
10kg shields??? Really?? Sorry, but that just not viable thing, not for footman. What you think it made from? Mostly its a dish-size metal plate(for balance and punching, not for defence), and rest of the thin wood, or even plywood, with totally about 2-2,5kg. Biggest one-handed bastard swords ~1,5kg max, spears about ~1kg, that is average milk packaging, and you dont need to hold this up all the time, just place it on shield/clamp with elbow/etc. Even ridiculusly long renessance pikes may be just supported by the ground, like on your photo.
I try to say, that you dont need perform a “special” action to form a spear/shieldwall with others, you just need to be near them. Reread where i write about “passive abilities”.
Of course on wall-on-wall combatant faces 3 opponents. Idea is – everybody faces 3 opponents, if you get attacked by 1+2 neighboring guys, you defended not only by yourself, but also by 2 neighboring friends. Reread where i write about “free opponnents”.
When i say about miss hits, i mean completly miss. When you placing blow, you tired yourself releasing something energy, and opponent(if not completly evade) must deal with that energy, not just ignore it – also get tired from parry, and, if not have shield or sword, suffer big damage to weapon.
This how:
Really?? I couldn’t hit just through first line, you should avoid it. I make some diagram, just for you:
PS Anyway, thanks for response.
PPS Why this forum not have preview function? That very inconvinient.Sorry for language.
Also, please, give this forum option to preview you posts!10kg shields??? Really?? Sorry, but that just not viable thing, not for footman.
Yes really. Although that’s somewhere on the upper end of the extreme of course and was given as a example. Average Greek aspis shield weighted about 7-8 kg.
Biggest one-handed bastard swords ~1,5kg max, spears about ~1kg, that is average milk packaging, and you dont need to hold this up all the time, just place it on shield/clamp with elbow/etc.
You do need to hold it if you are facing enemy attack. Even if you are just threatening him with you stance, your spear needs to be in position to strike.
Btw: “spear wall” and “shield wall” are bit of a contradiction because in literature they are used to describe the same thing. Which is (relatively) tight linear formation made of warriors with shields and at last some of them using spears, which practically all ancient armies did. Spear was main battlefield weapon safe few exceptions. In real life shield/spear wall is not ability or stance, it’s description of formation. And pretty ambiguous at that.
Therefore again, you can’t take that ability in the game too literary.
Even ridiculusly long renessance pikes may be just supported by the ground, like on your photo.
That position on the photo is actually for receiving cavalry charge and is pretty uncomfortable and tiring. Soldier have to kneel slightly to the front, with back foot resting on a pike but to hold it firmly in the ground while right arm is on a sword hilt ready to unsheathe it in case pike brakes from impact of enemy horsemen manages to get through pike points.
In foot engagement those pikes would be held horizontally above your shoulders, roughly at the height of your face.
Of course on wall-on-wall combatant faces 3 opponents. Idea is – everybody faces 3 opponents, if you get attacked by 1+2 neighboring guys, you defended not only by yourself, but also by 2 neighboring friends. Reread where i write about “free opponnents”.
Idea is that standing in a formation facing enemy formation makes you more vulnerable then when facing single opponent in a duel. Yes, your buddies next to you can parry attacks against you, but they face 3 guys themselves. Everybody is more vulnerable because attack can come from more then one opponent and direction.
When i say about miss hits, i mean completly miss. When you placing blow, you tired yourself releasing something energy, and opponent(if not completly evade) must deal with that energy, not just ignore it – also get tired from parry, and, if not have shield or sword, suffer big damage to weapon.
Nothing suggest that enemy does nothing. There’s even skill involved which is called melee defense and if my memory does not fool me, there is even little animation in combat where enemy icon moves slightly during “miss”.
If you watch video I posted you actually see that most of the attacks do miss. But you also see that combatants does not stand passively on the spot.
Really?? I couldn’t hit just through first line, you should avoid it. I make some diagram, just for you:
Pikes were actually between 3-8 meters in length. Guy on your diagram would be perfectly safe. 2.5 meters is length of average spear.
Average Greek aspis shield weighted about 7-8 kg.
Is that huge sparthan bronze shield? There no shield of that kind in the game or in medieval warfare. Try look at this
In real life shield/spear wall is not ability or stance
I think all defensive abilities should be passive (with nerf their effects of course)
I do not see any contradiction here. So what is your point? I should remind you that game has already max fatigue penalty for wearing spear/shield/whateverelse.
but they face 3 guys themselves
And also have 2 friends by sides. And so on. Yes. Everyone is equal busy(except for the flanks, of course). Does this make things more complicated? Yes. Does game have proper mechanic for this? No. That what i’m talking about.
When you placing blow, you tired yourself releasing something energy, and opponent(if not completly evade) must deal with that energy, not just ignore it
I really confused that i’m forced to write this again. There is my point and you dont say anything about that.
Pikes were actually between 3-8 meters in length. Guy on your diagram would be perfectly safe. 2.5 meters is length of average spear.
There question not really about length, because for this goal, you always need to have angle for proper attack. You cant just push it throught first line’s shoulder horizontally, because that actually involve first line(and you most likely lost your huge pike, thanks to huge lever). And again, some diagram, just for you:
And, by the way, there are no renaissance pikes in medieval, you now? Because it’s has very specific use, and dont very suitable for footman skirmish. Also, i think that you merge footman and cavalry gear.Sorry for language.
Also, please, give this forum option to preview you posts!Is that huge sparthan bronze shield?
It’s not huge, it’s rather modest in size compared to many other shields, like Roman scutum. And it’s actually wooden with sheet of bronze as a coating.
There no shield of that kind in the game
There are several shields in the game that are larger and heavier then that. Obvious one is Orc metal shield. But there are also ancient dead shields which are actually Romano-Celtic-Germanic shields and there are several large or/and heavy unique shields like pavise shield and metal heater shield.
or in medieval warfare.
Plenty.
I do not see any contradiction here. So what is your point?
My point is that defensive ability in the game is not passive stance. Exact opposite of what you say.
And also have 2 friends by sides. And so on. Yes. Everyone is equal busy(except for the flanks, of course). Does this make things more complicated? Yes. Does game have proper mechanic for this? No. That what i’m talking about.
Game have proper mechanic for this. Standing in the battle makes your defense more difficult because you face more then one threat …hence higher chance of the enemy to land attack on you in the game.
I really confused that i’m forced to write this again. There is my point and you dont say anything about that.
Why should I write anything about that? Yes, enemy have to react to the attack. So what?
There question not really about length,
It is. Longer your weapon, longer it’s reach. As simple as that.
because for this goal, you always need to have angle for proper attack. You cant just push it throught first line’s shoulder horizontally, because that actually involve first line(and you most likely lost your huge pike, thanks to huge lever). And again, some diagram, just for you:
Your picture have nothing to do with reality. First of all because you don’t strike over the head of soldiers in the front rank, you strike between them.
Second of all because pike is not held in the middle like you have drawn, therefore there is no “massive leverage.”
And, by the way, there are no renaissance pikes in medieval, you now? Because it’s has very specific use, and dont very suitable for footman skirmish. Also, i think that you merge footman and cavalry gear.
No, there are medieval pikes in medieval.
Because it’s has very specific use, and dont very suitable for footman skirmish. Also, i think that you merge footman and cavalry gear.
??? Pike IS PURE foot weapon. It have nothing to do with cavalry gear.
If you want to proper critic, you should account all arguments. Not pick one that suited for you.
So, you wrote that in medieval were greek-like huge and heavy round shields(intended to parry), and show a picture and compare them with tower shields(intended to cover, and also can be grounded). Say about medieval pikes, but show renessance ones. Completly ignore my arguments about skirmish, and only mention the conclusion – thats your favorite method, as i can see.shield/spear wall is not ability or stance, it’s description of formation
– Its clearly description of passive ability, triggered when you near friends, dont fool yourself.
Yes, enemy have to react to the attack. So what?
React to energy that suddenly transferred with the attack, i.e. suffer(and conditions for that i already described).
Your picture have nothing to do with reality.
– Yes, that picture intended to show stupidity of situation, but this does not make it less realistic.
Second of all because pike is not held in the middle like you have drawn, therefore there is no “massive leverage.”
Yes, but that way you have even greater leverage on the other side of pike. What happens, you think, if someone just, you now, hit it somewhat hard with sword?
First of all because you don’t strike over the head of soldiers in the front rank, you strike between them.
Okay, i can see that: “You! Yes, you, guy in the 1st line. Dont move and stand still, please, i should poke that friend of yours behind you with that long and very vulnerable stick”
Also, another argument for me, there are pretty famous “pikes vs swords” fight in history. Romans 1, Greeks 0 – AWAY WIN.Pike IS PURE foot weapon. It have nothing to do with cavalry gear.
I said that about your urge to huge one-handed spears. Also cavalry actually have pikes, but they call them lances.
Sorry for language.
Also, please, give this forum option to preview you posts!
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