Topic: Things that are so dumb, that makes me sick

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  • #21392
    Efgrafich
    Participant

    I very much like concept of this game, but, if game pretend to be somewhat realistic, i see some issues there. So…

    Dumb thing number one:
    Defensive abilities(shieldwall, spearwall, etc) cost AP and Fatigue. Furthermore, that cost even more than a strikes. How i can get tired just from hold my weapon and shield up? And even if so how it can be double, or even triple(!) more tiring than placing blows? That just not work, seriously. I think all defensive abilities should be passive (with nerf their effects of course). Fatigue must be depleted on actions, not for wait. For now that abilities just useless (besides spearwall, but whatever pretty weak for its cost).

    Dumb thing number two:
    Weak effects from encirclement. By itself, works pretty strange in situation “wall-on-wall”, when everybody face two opponents and,thus, everybody get encircled and debuffs, that very dumb. Rules for get encirclement very simple: if you face two or more free(not engaged with anyone else) opponent – you get encircled. Further if you encircled some guy, that should be quick end for him. There no way, that you can parry/evade blows vs two opponents, unless you veryveyrvery skilled AND have space for footwork. Furthermore, vs three or more opponents there no chances at all, 95% chance to hit , unless its hollywood.
    And the fact that encircled guy still have zone of control makes me fufreackink mad, How can he make that, when he faces another opponent? “Wait, please, mr Orc, i must stop that freind of you from retreating.”

    Dumb thing number three:
    Miss hits, especially in “wall-on-wall” situation. Imagine that, to miss hit on a human size target right before you, you should be incredibly dumb. If you place a blow on a guy, that guy must parry(and suffer fatigue), or evade(and step away on free space). So, if you not have any free space to evade, not have a shield or a sword, you probably get hit, or at least your weapon get significant damage.

    Dumb thing number four:
    No any pre-battle phase. Come on, that obvious. Your squad spawn at random landscape in a just 1-2 turn reach, with no any space or time for tactical movement.
    How that work on ironman? Oh…

    Dumb thing number five:
    Polearms hits second line through first. Seriously, how its work? How can you evade big angry man with sharp stick and hit guy behind him? Just imagine that.

    Enough for now. Summary:
    All of these dumb things makes game more about high grade gear, than about tactic(because tactic not really gave you strong benefits in this game), and makes defence very weak, while it should be muchmuch stonger and to break it you actually should use tactic(or, preferably, inhuman strenght).

    PS Not intended to offend anyone.
    PPS Sorry for language.

    Sorry for language.
    Also, please, give this forum option to preview you posts!

    #21405
    hruza
    Participant

    I very much like concept of this game, but, if game pretend to be somewhat realistic, i see some issues there. So…

    The issues you have are called “abstraction”. It’s like complaining about knight in chess being able to move only 2 tiles strait and one left or right when in reality knight can move in any direction.

    Tactically this game is very elaborate chess.

    Dumb thing number one:
    Defensive abilities(shieldwall, spearwall, etc) cost AP and Fatigue. Furthermore, that cost even more than a strikes. How i can get tired just from hold my weapon and shield up? And even if so how it can be double, or even triple(!) more tiring than placing blows?

    First of all, using abilities in game have to have some cost, otherwise you would be using them all the time. What cost do you suggest instead?

    Second, holding weapon and shield actually does fatigue, especially holding it in a combat ready position. Roman shield could weight up to 10kg. Some other shields are even heavier. Try holding 10kg with one hand in front of you about where your shield would be in expectation of attack. Try to hold 2.5m pole from hard wood above your head at the same time.

    And third, you shouldn’t take names of these abilities literally. Or do you know how to make spear wall and shield wall all by yourself? Shieldwall in real life is locking shield with your other comrades in formation, same with the spear wall. You can’t create shieldwall and spearwall all by yourself. Not unless you have more then two hands.

    My understanding of the shieldwall and spearwall abilities is that these are positions which utilize shield or spear defensively in the battle with emphasis to provide better protection compared to just holding shield and spear in front of you. That is, these are active, not passive positions. Hence they cost fatigue. As for why they cost more fatigue then normal attack, I believe it’s because they are continuous activity rather then just one time stab. You are able to react to several opponents while using them, as opposed to just single enemy with normal attack. hence increased cost.

    Dumb thing number two:
    Weak effects from encirclement. By itself, works pretty strange in situation “wall-on-wall”, when everybody face two opponents and,thus, everybody get encircled and debuffs, that very dumb.

    No, they actually makes perfect sense. If you have ever reenacted medieval foot battle, or watched one, you would realize that combatants don’t deal with just opponents they are facing, they can receive and deal attacks also to the guy left and right. And if enemy is using some sort of longer reach weapon from his back lines, then that something you are exposed to as well.

    So single combatant in a battle line faces at minimum 3 opponents. Game mechanic is correct.

    Dark age re-enactment with commentary

    Dumb thing number three:
    Miss hits, especially in “wall-on-wall” situation. Imagine that, to miss hit on a human size target right before you, you should be incredibly dumb. If you place a blow on a guy, that guy must parry(and suffer fatigue), or evade(and step away on free space). So, if you not have any free space to evade, not have a shield or a sword, you probably get hit, or at least your weapon get significant damage.

    Again, had you watched or participated in a reenactment, you would realize that fighting does not involve mindlessly stabbing or poking in the general direction of your opponent. You are attacking specific weak points on your opponent, form specific angles, because he is not standing in front of you not minding your blows. He is first of all positioning himself the way that it is as hard for you to land a hit on him as possible. This in the most basic form means that he is maintaining safe distance from you and your weapon. He will be also actively parrying your attacks with his weapon and shield, if he have one.

    Therefore “miss” in the game does not mean that you have failed to hit “man size target in front of you” as you imagine. It means most of the time that enemy have foiled your attack.

    And no, your weapon won’t get significant damage. If it would, you are using crappy weapon unsuited for battle.

    Dumb thing number four:
    No any pre-battle phase. Come on, that obvious. Your squad spawn at random landscape in a just 1-2 turn reach, with no any space or time for tactical movement.
    How that work on ironman? Oh…

    Pre-battle is your formation/inventory screen. Yes, it’s fairly limited, but alternative would be to spend 10 turns in every single battle just to position yourself and your enemy.

    Dumb thing number five:
    Polearms hits second line through first. Seriously, how its work?

    This how:

    #21409
    Danubian
    Participant

    Haha tercio :D

    #21411
    LasseFin
    Participant

    I actually agree with the first point. I think spearwall and riposte should get a significant reduction in fatigue cost, but every time they trigger, they should lose fatigue. That would make much more sense.

    About you point no. 5, hitting with long weapons from behind allies was done in almost every cultural all throughout history…

    #21412
    nope100500
    Participant

    Spearwall at fixed cost tests your ability to predict enemy actions and offers significant reward if you are correct.
    Also it doesn’t have to hit anything to be useful – denying enemy some area can be good enough on it’s own.
    It’s cost is also not that high, since you regenerate 15 fat per turn (or 20 with lungs). Effective cost per turn is 15/8/3. And since you shouldn’t seriously rely on spearwalls without spec past the very early game, it really is just 8/3.

    Riposte already has hidden cost per activation – every enemy miss adds 2 fatigue to target. Making it cost more per trigger and less for activation makes more sense, because right now the only thing saving riposte from being completely unusable is the fact that AI doesn’t understand that simply skipping turn defeats riposte (that is in perfect situation for riposte user, where there are no other available targets).

    #21422
    Efgrafich
    Participant

    I think you read my tesisis, but mostly skip or ignore the explanations.

    “abstraction”

    Of course its all about abstraction. Problem is, there not enough of it. I think, you agree, that engaged figure participate in combat, even if he’s turn already done/not yet started (there is another issue about current turn system, but not now) and enemy not just “teleport” to not engaged target(unsless its some of leap/dash/etc ability, of course), so target actually have time to react. And that’s where described problems come from.

    Okay, lets start:

    10kg shields??? Really?? Sorry, but that just not viable thing, not for footman. What you think it made from? Mostly its a dish-size metal plate(for balance and punching, not for defence), and rest of the thin wood, or even plywood, with totally about 2-2,5kg. Biggest one-handed bastard swords ~1,5kg max, spears about ~1kg, that is average milk packaging, and you dont need to hold this up all the time, just place it on shield/clamp with elbow/etc. Even ridiculusly long renessance pikes may be just supported by the ground, like on your photo.

    I try to say, that you dont need perform a “special” action to form a spear/shieldwall with others, you just need to be near them. Reread where i write about “passive abilities”.

    Of course on wall-on-wall combatant faces 3 opponents. Idea is – everybody faces 3 opponents, if you get attacked by 1+2 neighboring guys, you defended not only by yourself, but also by 2 neighboring friends. Reread where i write about “free opponnents”.

    When i say about miss hits, i mean completly miss. When you placing blow, you tired yourself releasing something energy, and opponent(if not completly evade) must deal with that energy, not just ignore it – also get tired from parry, and, if not have shield or sword, suffer big damage to weapon.

    This how:

    Really?? I couldn’t hit just through first line, you should avoid it. I make some diagram, just for you:
    Oopsy!

    PS Anyway, thanks for response.
    PPS Why this forum not have preview function? That very inconvinient.

    Sorry for language.
    Also, please, give this forum option to preview you posts!

    #21423
    hruza
    Participant

    10kg shields??? Really?? Sorry, but that just not viable thing, not for footman.

    Yes really. Although that’s somewhere on the upper end of the extreme of course and was given as a example. Average Greek aspis shield weighted about 7-8 kg.

    Biggest one-handed bastard swords ~1,5kg max, spears about ~1kg, that is average milk packaging, and you dont need to hold this up all the time, just place it on shield/clamp with elbow/etc.

    You do need to hold it if you are facing enemy attack. Even if you are just threatening him with you stance, your spear needs to be in position to strike.

    Btw: “spear wall” and “shield wall” are bit of a contradiction because in literature they are used to describe the same thing. Which is (relatively) tight linear formation made of warriors with shields and at last some of them using spears, which practically all ancient armies did. Spear was main battlefield weapon safe few exceptions. In real life shield/spear wall is not ability or stance, it’s description of formation. And pretty ambiguous at that.

    Therefore again, you can’t take that ability in the game too literary.

    Even ridiculusly long renessance pikes may be just supported by the ground, like on your photo.

    That position on the photo is actually for receiving cavalry charge and is pretty uncomfortable and tiring. Soldier have to kneel slightly to the front, with back foot resting on a pike but to hold it firmly in the ground while right arm is on a sword hilt ready to unsheathe it in case pike brakes from impact of enemy horsemen manages to get through pike points.

    In foot engagement those pikes would be held horizontally above your shoulders, roughly at the height of your face.

    Of course on wall-on-wall combatant faces 3 opponents. Idea is – everybody faces 3 opponents, if you get attacked by 1+2 neighboring guys, you defended not only by yourself, but also by 2 neighboring friends. Reread where i write about “free opponnents”.

    Idea is that standing in a formation facing enemy formation makes you more vulnerable then when facing single opponent in a duel. Yes, your buddies next to you can parry attacks against you, but they face 3 guys themselves. Everybody is more vulnerable because attack can come from more then one opponent and direction.

    When i say about miss hits, i mean completly miss. When you placing blow, you tired yourself releasing something energy, and opponent(if not completly evade) must deal with that energy, not just ignore it – also get tired from parry, and, if not have shield or sword, suffer big damage to weapon.

    Nothing suggest that enemy does nothing. There’s even skill involved which is called melee defense and if my memory does not fool me, there is even little animation in combat where enemy icon moves slightly during “miss”.

    If you watch video I posted you actually see that most of the attacks do miss. But you also see that combatants does not stand passively on the spot.

    Really?? I couldn’t hit just through first line, you should avoid it. I make some diagram, just for you:

    Pikes were actually between 3-8 meters in length. Guy on your diagram would be perfectly safe. 2.5 meters is length of average spear.

    #21425
    Efgrafich
    Participant

    Average Greek aspis shield weighted about 7-8 kg.

    Is that huge sparthan bronze shield? There no shield of that kind in the game or in medieval warfare. Try look at this

    In real life shield/spear wall is not ability or stance

    I think all defensive abilities should be passive (with nerf their effects of course)

    I do not see any contradiction here. So what is your point? I should remind you that game has already max fatigue penalty for wearing spear/shield/whateverelse.

    but they face 3 guys themselves

    And also have 2 friends by sides. And so on. Yes. Everyone is equal busy(except for the flanks, of course). Does this make things more complicated? Yes. Does game have proper mechanic for this? No. That what i’m talking about.

    When you placing blow, you tired yourself releasing something energy, and opponent(if not completly evade) must deal with that energy, not just ignore it

    I really confused that i’m forced to write this again. There is my point and you dont say anything about that.

    Pikes were actually between 3-8 meters in length. Guy on your diagram would be perfectly safe. 2.5 meters is length of average spear.

    There question not really about length, because for this goal, you always need to have angle for proper attack. You cant just push it throught first line’s shoulder horizontally, because that actually involve first line(and you most likely lost your huge pike, thanks to huge lever). And again, some diagram, just for you: VeryLongOops!
    And, by the way, there are no renaissance pikes in medieval, you now? Because it’s has very specific use, and dont very suitable for footman skirmish. Also, i think that you merge footman and cavalry gear.

    Sorry for language.
    Also, please, give this forum option to preview you posts!

    #21428
    hruza
    Participant

    Is that huge sparthan bronze shield?

    It’s not huge, it’s rather modest in size compared to many other shields, like Roman scutum. And it’s actually wooden with sheet of bronze as a coating.

    There no shield of that kind in the game

    There are several shields in the game that are larger and heavier then that. Obvious one is Orc metal shield. But there are also ancient dead shields which are actually Romano-Celtic-Germanic shields and there are several large or/and heavy unique shields like pavise shield and metal heater shield.

    or in medieval warfare.

    Plenty.

    I do not see any contradiction here. So what is your point?

    My point is that defensive ability in the game is not passive stance. Exact opposite of what you say.

    And also have 2 friends by sides. And so on. Yes. Everyone is equal busy(except for the flanks, of course). Does this make things more complicated? Yes. Does game have proper mechanic for this? No. That what i’m talking about.

    Game have proper mechanic for this. Standing in the battle makes your defense more difficult because you face more then one threat …hence higher chance of the enemy to land attack on you in the game.

    I really confused that i’m forced to write this again. There is my point and you dont say anything about that.

    Why should I write anything about that? Yes, enemy have to react to the attack. So what?

    There question not really about length,

    It is. Longer your weapon, longer it’s reach. As simple as that.

    because for this goal, you always need to have angle for proper attack. You cant just push it throught first line’s shoulder horizontally, because that actually involve first line(and you most likely lost your huge pike, thanks to huge lever). And again, some diagram, just for you:

    Your picture have nothing to do with reality. First of all because you don’t strike over the head of soldiers in the front rank, you strike between them.

    Second of all because pike is not held in the middle like you have drawn, therefore there is no “massive leverage.”

    And, by the way, there are no renaissance pikes in medieval, you now? Because it’s has very specific use, and dont very suitable for footman skirmish. Also, i think that you merge footman and cavalry gear.

    No, there are medieval pikes in medieval.

    Because it’s has very specific use, and dont very suitable for footman skirmish. Also, i think that you merge footman and cavalry gear.

    ??? Pike IS PURE foot weapon. It have nothing to do with cavalry gear.

    #21430
    Efgrafich
    Participant

    If you want to proper critic, you should account all arguments. Not pick one that suited for you.
    So, you wrote that in medieval were greek-like huge and heavy round shields(intended to parry), and show a picture and compare them with tower shields(intended to cover, and also can be grounded). Say about medieval pikes, but show renessance ones. Completly ignore my arguments about skirmish, and only mention the conclusion – thats your favorite method, as i can see.

    shield/spear wall is not ability or stance, it’s description of formation

    – Its clearly description of passive ability, triggered when you near friends, dont fool yourself.

    Yes, enemy have to react to the attack. So what?

    React to energy that suddenly transferred with the attack, i.e. suffer(and conditions for that i already described).

    Your picture have nothing to do with reality.

    – Yes, that picture intended to show stupidity of situation, but this does not make it less realistic.

    Second of all because pike is not held in the middle like you have drawn, therefore there is no “massive leverage.”

    Yes, but that way you have even greater leverage on the other side of pike. What happens, you think, if someone just, you now, hit it somewhat hard with sword?

    First of all because you don’t strike over the head of soldiers in the front rank, you strike between them.

    Okay, i can see that: “You! Yes, you, guy in the 1st line. Dont move and stand still, please, i should poke that friend of yours behind you with that long and very vulnerable stick”
    Also, another argument for me, there are pretty famous “pikes vs swords” fight in history. Romans 1, Greeks 0 – AWAY WIN.

    Pike IS PURE foot weapon. It have nothing to do with cavalry gear.

    I said that about your urge to huge one-handed spears. Also cavalry actually have pikes, but they call them lances.Cavalry lance/pike

    Sorry for language.
    Also, please, give this forum option to preview you posts!

    #21431
    Mike
    Participant

    First of all: no, you cannot be rude first and then just say “no offense” to excuse yourself – it just makes you look like a lazy asshole who knew he shouldn’t have written what he did, but didn’t really care enough to correct himself. Lack of language skills is irrelevant – if you can post here you can use google translate to correct any errors. Yes, the effort lies on your side to communicate well, not ours to guess what exactly did you mean by “dumb” and “sick”. Welcome to adult world.

    Secondly: the game is not “somewhat realistic” it IS realistic – for a given definition and basic asumptions. After all, it is not a real-life medieval combat similator – it’s a turn-based fantasy computer game where you fight goblins, orcs and walking dead, all conveniently defined by a simple set of numerical statistics and moving on a convenient grid of identical hexagons.
    If you are willing to accept the above – and since you didn’t put that on your cute little list I’m assuming that you are – all following pretenses of defending “realism” look like nitpicking at best.

    Thirdly: you don’t get to begin with a question like “how can I get tired from holding heavy-as-f*** equipment in a battle-ready stance (while wearing heavy and restricting armor)?” and keep any kind of credibility. You obviously have no experience in the matter whatsoever and therefore don’t really know what you are talking about, and no amount of further nitpicking or – admittedly cute – simplified pictures is going to change that.

    You don’t like something about the game, we get it. But you needlessly started with being rude and only got worse from there, which will get you no good will anywhere. Learn some humility and respect for others.

    #21433
    Ironwithin
    Participant

    First of all: no, you cannot be rude first and then just say “no offense” to excuse yourself – it just makes you look like a lazy asshole who knew he shouldn’t have written what he did, but didn’t really care enough to correct himself. Lack of language skills is irrelevant – if you can post here you can use google translate to correct any errors. Yes, the effort lies on your side to communicate well, not ours to guess what exactly did you mean by “dumb” and “sick”. Welcome to adult world.

    Secondly: the game is not “somewhat realistic” it IS realistic – for a given definition and basic asumptions. After all, it is not a real-life medieval combat similator – it’s a turn-based fantasy computer game where you fight goblins, orcs and walking dead, all conveniently defined by a simple set of numerical statistics and moving on a convenient grid of identical hexagons.
    If you are willing to accept the above – and since you didn’t put that on your cute little list I’m assuming that you are – all following pretenses of defending “realism” look like nitpicking at best.

    Thirdly: you don’t get to begin with a question like “how can I get tired from holding heavy-as-f*** equipment in a battle-ready stance (while wearing heavy and restricting armor)?” and keep any kind of credibility. You obviously have no experience in the matter whatsoever and therefore don’t really know what you are talking about, and no amount of further nitpicking or – admittedly cute – simplified pictures is going to change that.

    You don’t like something about the game, we get it. But you needlessly started with being rude and only got worse from there, which will get you no good will anywhere. Learn some humility and respect for others.

    It has to be said twice, hence the quote.

    Totally off-topic and somewhat dick-ish: anybody else reading this thread thought of an iranian cabby arguing with the ugandan hot-dog(or whatever) cart owner who’s cart he just ran into ?

    #21435
    LasseFin
    Participant

    He does bring up a few good points though. I thought he was talking about hitting from behind allies at first, which is 100% historical. But you have to admit, hitting an enemy who is behind another enemy doesn’t make nearly as much sense. It’s possible, but definitely very difficult. Perhaps the devs can make it so 2 reach melee weapons works similarly to bow/crossbow when hitting from behind an enemy? You have a chance of hitting the guy in front.

    #21437
    McKing
    Participant

    Mate, he presented good arguments, with videos of historical reenactments – you had some really awful sticks drawn.

    It may be that it happens because english is not your native tongue – but you sound to me like you are trying to be condescending while being completely ignorant of the subject at hand. Just some feedback. Sometimes it seems you are a kid – not that it would be a problem. If you want to argument, at least google a bit, and find some references if you want to crictise something, like the weight of shields. “I don’t think so” is no argument.

    And holding heavy shields and weapons while in the tension of battle, wearing armor? To me, the skills AP cost does make sense. Though they maybe could get a small reduction to be more useful – or less punishing to use.

    When people start talking about Pikes, i just recall some of the drawings that show up when you look Swiss Mercenaries and Landknechts – talk about “Bad War”. Pikes are really scary, and it seems apropriate to me. Pike v Pike fights are bloody and messy as they should be.

    It seems to me the system was kind of built around melee-ranged-pikes and such, and would need a really well thought out plan to be changed. I, particularly, like it as it is – a lot.

    #21438
    Wanderer
    Participant

    One thing to keep in mind though about the whole pike versus sword argument: there’s a reason why there were pike squares and not pike lines. If we’re talking about the pikeman in front stabbing a guy behind the first line sword user, chances are there’s a second pikeman behind him to stab anybody that gets close; likely a third guy also for good measure. Which is why charging into pike squares was usually not a good idea, but if you manage to get into sword fighting range, the square was likely to get broken quickly.

    The matter of hitting the second guy behind the first guy is simply a matter of the pike having nowhere else to go, and there’s no sundering of weapons in this game.

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