Things that are so dumb, that makes me sick

[Efgrafich]

McKing wrote:

If you want to argument, at least google a bit, and find some references if you want to crictise something, like the weight of shields. “I don’t think so” is no argument.

Efgrafich wrote:

Is that huge sparthan bronze shield? There no shield of that kind in the game or in medieval warfare. Try look at this

That link, which was supposed to be in a quote.
And i actually HAD some evidences. I know is a bit difficult in this topic, but dont sparse your attention, please.

PS And i should remind you, guys, that game already have max fatigue penalty for wearing stuff which, increases with weight of that stuff and that is absolutely logical thing for me.

Sorry for language.
Also, please, give this forum option to preview you posts!

[LasseFin]

Efgrafich wrote:

McKing wrote:

If you want to argument, at least google a bit, and find some references if you want to crictise something, like the weight of shields. “I don’t think so” is no argument.

Efgrafich wrote:

Is that huge sparthan bronze shield? There no shield of that kind in the game or in medieval warfare. Try look at this

That link, which was supposed to be in a quote.
And i actually HAD some evidences. I know is a bit difficult in this topic, but dont sparse your attention, please.

PS And i should remind you, guys, that game already have max fatigue penalty for wearing stuff which, increases with weight of that stuff and that is absolutely logical thing for me.

Those are 16th century shields… You said yourself we’re talking about the medieval here. These shields are a far cry from what would’ve been used in the time period of Battle Brothers (13th/14th century.) By the late 14th century, shields began to become less popular. At the time of the 16th century, shield use wasn’t nearly as common as it was and size has decreased due to the significantly increased effectiveness of armour. Some specialised troops like the Spanish rodelero still carry it en masse but it was no longer the norm. These troops were not in use for a long time and quickly disappeared due to their tactical inadequacies. It was clear that shields at this time was not nearly as useful as it was centuries ago.

These shields are all quite small with the biggest one being 24″, which is significantly smaller than even the average roundshield of Battle Brothers (which would probably be about 30″)…

16th century rodelero with a 23″ shield, usually referred to as a rodela/target.

All in all, 10 kg shields definitely existed in the forms of Pavise, but was probably still not very common. The shields in Battle Brothers would probably be around 5-8 kg.

[Efgrafich]

LasseFin wrote:

These shields are all quite small with the biggest one being 24″, which is significantly smaller than even the average roundshield of Battle Brothers (which would probably be about 30″)…

Sorry, but that probably all evidences, that we have. But if you look on that table again, you can see that heaviest steel shileds is about 6kg. And that is mostly parade and ceremonial ones(that page have paragraph that explained why this is so), with all that unnecessary ornaments and other fancy things.
And if you are not satisfied with 22” shields, there is also average density of wooden shields(i dont think that wood changed his qualities since 13th century).
If you do the math for 30”(what is bigger than road velobike’s wheel) and 10mm thick(which is more than enough), you’ll get about 4kg, which is about 1kg more than 22”, and this is a maximum, i.e. worst case – for thick shield and dense wood.

PS Also, i think that you, guys, too fixated on numbers. Try think about, that medieval people were not mad or stupid, they dont carry into battle gear, that they could not effective handle for hours. And also, i’m pretty sure, they had some unpredictable things that could accounted(ones that may prolong the battle, for example).
PPS And, finally, there some points about shields form actual archeologist.

Sorry for language.
Also, please, give this forum option to preview you posts!

[LasseFin]

Efgrafich wrote:

LasseFin wrote:

These shields are all quite small with the biggest one being 24″, which is significantly smaller than even the average roundshield of Battle Brothers (which would probably be about 30″)…

Sorry, but that probably all evidences, that we have. But if you look on that table again, you can see that heaviest steel shileds is about 6kg. And that is mostly parade and ceremonial ones(that page have paragraph that explained why this is so), with all that unnecessary ornaments and other fancy things.
And if you are not satisfied with 22” shields, there is also average density of wooden shields(i dont think that wood changed his qualities since 13th century).
If you do the math for 30”(what is bigger than road velobike’s wheel) and 10mm thick(which is more than enough), you’ll get about 4kg, which is about 1kg more than 22”, and this is a maximum, i.e. worst case – for thick shield and dense wood.

PS Also, i think that you, guys, too fixated on numbers. Try think about, that medieval people were not mad or stupid, they dont carry into battle gear, that they could not effective handle for hours. And also, i’m pretty sure, they had some unpredictable things that could accounted(ones that may prolong the battle, for example).
PPS And, finally, there some points about shields form actual archeologist.

Wooden shields were usually lined with rawhide or leather and has a iron center boss, which increases the weight quite a bit. Neither exists on a smaller steel shield on the 16th century. According to hurstwic, the roundshield weighs 7kg when lined with leather.

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_shields.htm
“The thin, unfaced reproduction shields shown in the photographs on this page weigh about 5kg (11lbs), while the thicker, leather covered shields weigh more than 7kg (15lbs) when dry.”

Apparently, it was usually made of Basswood, which has a density of only about 300-600 kg/m^3, so if you are talking about purely wood, it would be around 3 kg. But it’s not because it has that metal center piece plus leather which weighs quite a lot to increases the resilience.

The thing is, I feel like you are a bit more fixated with numbers… You seem to think that 10kg is impossible to handle, when in reality the Romans and Greeks did handle shields of that weight in combat, en masse, so we know it’s not something that’s inhumanly. What makes it so medieval people aren’t able to do that? Why would using shields of that weight be mad or stupid?

Furthermore, weight comparison between weapons and shields is not entirely accurate. If you’ve swung a sword before, you’d know that despite the fact that most range between 1-2kg, they do NOT feel that light in the hand, especially when using one handed. This is because of leverage from gravity, which you demonstrated in one of your pictures. Try holding a sword upright, you feel like you’re holding basically nothing… But holding it horizontally feels like you are holding something quite heavy. Shields do not have that problem because they are held upright and are held or strapped in the middle where the center of mass is.

That said, I do agree with a few of your points. I think that some are valid.

[Efgrafich]

LasseFin wrote:

The thing is, I feel like you are a bit more fixated with numbers…

My original question is not about actual numbers, its about logic – how you can you get multiple times more tired by just holding stuff, than actually swing with them. And then, someone said that i’m wrong, because that stuff is extremelly heavy to use…. and now we here.

PS I do not reject your information, but you should consider, that reproduction is not a solution for everything.

Sorry for language.
Also, please, give this forum option to preview you posts!

[LasseFin]

Efgrafich wrote:

LasseFin wrote:

The thing is, I feel like you are a bit more fixated with numbers…

My original question is not about actual numbers, its about logic – how you can you get multiple times more tired by just holding stuff, than actually swing with them. And then, someone said that i’m wrong, because that stuff is extremelly heavy to use…. and now we here.

PS I do not reject your information, but you should consider, that reproduction is not a solution for everything.

Yes, I actually agree with that part. I suggested in my first response to the thread that maybe spearwall/riposte should have much lower fatigue costs and have much higher triggering costs.

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