Topic: Two Handed-Weapons?

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  • #16338
    SpiritofTheWolfx
    Participant

    Does anyone even bother with equipping a fairly well leveled (Down the defense tree) Character with a two handed weapon. I try over and over and all that ever happens with them is they constantly miss, get focus fired down and pelted with arrows.

    #16343
    Danubian
    Participant

    I dont ever have any dedicated two handers. However i do have secondary equipped 2 handed weapons with 2 tiles reach so that i can gang up on specially tough enemies like orc warriors.

    #16352
    Steir
    Participant

    Its quite surprising, how efficiently a third (utility) branch stacks with 2 handed weapons. “Brawny” allows your men to wear best of armors without being dramatically fatigued, and “weapon master” with “battle flow” allows to wield even devastating orcish 2handers and swing those around without problems (Which base damages compensate lacking of damage output, compared to first (attack) branch). It also helpful to spent a point to “battle forged” from defence to maximize outcome from heavy armor, and possible spent last point on “sundering strikes” or “nine lives”, depends on how important that particular character is.

    #16371
    Sarissofoi
    Participant

    I have some success with Offensive Defensive hybrid. It works unless its under heavy attack(like by group of Orc warriors or dagger goblins and without support). Main issue is low Fatigue so reliance on Hornblowers/Sergants.
    Preferable military backgrounds with high Fatigue/Hp/Md/MS – Hedge knights, Sellswords, Squires, Raiders. Swordmasters or Retired soldiers are to fragile and have to low fatigue although they have good MD and MS
    Level Up stats
    Melee skill- to hit
    Melee defence – to be not hit
    Fatigue – to wear heavy armour and actually do anything
    HP – to not die easily
    First build Defence tree.
    Battle hardened/Colossus/9 Lives
    Non shield user so no shield perks and low Initiative so no Dodge
    Hold out – its essential as its plain free stats to Attack and Defence also morale. It working best with Inspiring Presence or Determined trait.
    Then Offensive tree:
    Sundering strikes/Executioner or Headhunter/AOE hit chance bonus
    Why headhunter? If you use Zwaihander you want to use AoE attack and it looks like it benefit more than executioner(as enemy characters tend to die in 1-2 hit)
    Berserker(for 2nd attack) and Full force(for more dmg).
    Killing frenzy is optional but it really help.
    2nd weapon is Dagger(0 fatigue cost)
    Weak point is relative low Defence Skill compared to Nimble or shield one handers builds and low fatigue and fatigue regeneration rate as zero Utility perks.
    This build cannot operate without Sergeants/Hornblowers.

    It work rather well if supported. Biggest danger are orc warriors(as always), massed xbows and goblin daggers.

    #16375
    RusBear
    Participant

    I’m a fan of two-handed axes. and was him even before new 2 tile ax ) With confidence I can say that with the right approach to the background of the character, of his level up and tactical positioning on the battlefield – even two-handed ax( not the best 2 hand weapon by devs) – a major damage dealer in 70-80 % of battles.
    Some right nuances in present perk’s tree, quite correctly pointed by Sarissofoi
    I hope that the new perk tree allows players who know how to think and not only to use a pair of imbalanced builds successfully develop these characters as they want

    #16379
    Danubian
    Participant

    I hope that they change the perk system so that we level up more often have more ability to specialize our bros.

    #16384
    Sarissofoi
    Participant

    Problem is that current system reward using strict specialised build and there is problem with plenty of little worth perks or perks overlapping in one tree. Not even mention some perks that are only worthwhile for specific builds.
    Although it would be nice to have some sort of Random perk tree for all soldiers Option on the start of the game.
    Lets look at Utility tree(the bigger offender).
    First it contain 2 best 3rd Tier perks as they are have company range and are plainly speaking necessary for a good company.
    Then you have almost zero choice in 1st tier perks. Th Holy Trinity of Utility(Quick hands, Bags Belts and Pathfinder) is must when rest perks can not even compete.
    2nd Tier have plenty of Fatigue oriented skills but for example Quick hands and Bags and Belts make Weaponmaster obsolete(even if its one of my favourite) as you can easily carry spare weapons for no fatigue cost. Battle flow is rather useful perk but only for characters who do killing and for full utility or utility-defensive hybrids it present little worth. Then there is Captain that is only for resolve builds(Hornblower/sergeants) and Brawny that is no brainier as it offer great Fatigue boost on any heavy armoured soldier. Fearsome is great perk to have but it really shine when you employ its in mass on many characters with specific weapons(hammers, xbows). Footwork can be useful sometimes but its costly and offer little benefits compared to other perks.
    In the end its really clear path of perks to take.
    1st tier Trinity of Utility
    2nd tier Captain for resolve build, Brawny for all, Battle flow/weaponmaster for PF builds, Fearsome for hybrids and line soldiers
    3rd tier one inspiring presence as its boost whole company, two rally the troops for keeping them fighting
    Offensive tree offer rather limited choices
    1st tier perks are again no brainier, Sundering strike is best, executioner can be useful, Crusher is decent for axe user, then its Bloody harvest for AoE weapons and that its all. No really a choice
    2nd tiers is either Berserk and Fullforce for melee or berserk and CCA/Bullseye for ranged
    3rd tier is either PF for PF build or Killing frenzy for rest
    Defence tree offer most options especially on lower tiers
    1st tier offer plenty of choices(although 2 perks are only for shield users and dodge rely on secondary attribute)
    2nd tier have some interesting options but Nimble for Nimble builds and Hold out for rest stay out from the rest
    3rd tier return the favour for nimble build, Indomitable for rest
    Overall I would say that current perk system is very rigid and limited. It lack flexibility and interesting choices to make. You can say that something is wrong when you can name specific builds after one perk.

    #16385
    Nightlight
    Participant

    Yes, I do that to force diversity in my mainline.

    Agree with Sarissofoi. Some perks seem to be useless against a certain type of enemies and don’t really work well with others. For example, a defensive brother using a shield, redundant against orc warrior and young orc does a good job at cleaving shield too. Good against arrow? Nay, those goblins will snipe your archer to death and won’t bother with him. Protect your archer against arrow? Plenty of time my archer die directly behide a shield-wall, guessing there no extra bonus to protect your archer except for block penalty. So why bother with shield perks? Maybe someone can prove me wrong.

    The stat to increase per level seem to be a problem as well, it kind of silly not to put points into fatigue. Another points will most likely be melee/range. It kind of giving you only one stat to choose.

    Sorry for my bad English.

    #16387
    Sarissofoi
    Participant

    Overall there is little reason to use 2 handers builds other than xbow/pike builds that support main battle line from behind.
    Still I use Zwainhanders build as I wrote before mostly because I like heads flying. They can be effective especially against softer enemies because they can dish more damage thanks to AoE and if enemy die fast he can’t hurt your guys but overall nimble builds are better in melee and shieldbearers better as main line.
    Offensive nimble build can not only have great melee survivality but also dish serious damage thanks to Full Force and Double grip. Its even better because Full Force apply to 2 attacks and he is hard to hit so bonus from it is mostly stay whole fight.
    But back to the topic.
    There is 3 categories of 2 handers troops.
    1. backliners – they are suppose to fight from 2nd row and often use xbow as oppening, they should go 6-Off/4-Utt, Offensive tree grant them solid bonus to damage, when utility either grant them fearsome or brawny for more sweet Full force bonus if soldier have low fatigue
    In short its all offence with no defence. Main level up stats are Melee Skill, Ranged Skill, Fatigue. Heavy armour should protect from arrows and main tanks with Indomitable from Orcs. Pikes, long axes, billhooks plus xbows. If more oriented on ranged carry more xbows and get ranged perk instead of Full force, can wear lighter armour.
    Overall they are the ones that are worth using and do great.
    2. AoE flankers – they are suppose to fight on flanks using Great Swords with AoE attacks, 6-Off/4-Deff offer solid damage and survivality but low fatigue. Hold out is essential for bonus hit chance and defence stats. Can be train as 4-Utt instead or 4-Deff for more flexibility as they can carry variety of weapons and shields but they really need that defence perks for close combat. Berserk and Full Force can greatly increase damage but its also cost fatigue so either invest heavy or have hornblowers/sergeants nearby.
    Great swords are great for this role as they have 2 AoE attacks and solid damage. Warbrands have to low damage to compensate lost survivality compared to Nimble Builds.
    Hammers are also great thanks to bonus effects.
    Axes not really as they lack reliable AoE and can’t be supported or protected by your other soldiers if you want to use it.
    I personally like them but they are not the best. Can die easily if not supported.
    3. axemans – build similar to AoE flankers but armed with orc big Axes, mainly used for shield destruction and single target damage, obsolete as there you can make backliners armed with Long Axes so no need to risk soldier on front line. Also their main use is against orcs against their shields and armour but then again 1 handers do better job on front line.

    For two handers you want to grab berserk for 2nd attack/turn. Then Full force and Killing frenzy is too good to miss. QuickHands and BegBelts look great but then soldier can’t go into Defence tree and grab Hold out and its important for close combat ones. Still if you use Quick hands and free shield swap it can be worth sometimes.
    Tried to make 2 handers with out going deep into Offence tree but then their defence is still low and damage is much lower. Not worth.

    #16417
    Meeky
    Participant

    Personally, I love two-handed weapons guys, and I play them with Offense and Utility tree stuff and usually nothing from the Defense tree. Yes, really.

    You’re not carrying a big weapon so you can take hits. That’s what shields and nimble fighters are for. You carry a big two-handed weapon because something needs to die and it needs to die NOW.

    Key to any offense-oriented two-handed build is having a hornblower in the back to assist, especially if Perfect Focus is going to be a part of your setup. You might even use the offense tree perk that gives you extra AP on murdering someone in conjunction. That can give a guy using a polearm a lot of extra attacks, or a guy using a two-handed sword one or two extra swings after an initial AoE strike (depending on how much fatigue they have and if they use Perfect Focus).

    You probably want Brawny from the Utility tree. It lets you wear the biggest, bulkiest armor in the game, meaning really good defense – and since a patch that I don’t recall, this applies to helmets too. Wear big stuff and add that heavy armor to your damage with the Full Force perk.

    The Full Force perk seems to be REALLY good on weapons with low base damage but high armor effectiveness, such as the two-handed hammer. Keep that in mind when picking weapon loadouts: try to have a weapon that’s good vs. HP, a weapon that’s good vs. armor, and a weapon that’s got reach, always. Some weapons will fit two of these criteria, such as the billhook being good vs. armor while having reach, or the longaxe being good vs. HP with reach… or the two-handed orcish axe (the Mansplitter) which just makes a mockery of flesh and armor alike at the cost of ALL YOUR FATIGUE. Your mileage may vary with that one.

    There are five stats you should level with this setup, taken whenever the dice rolls heavily favor one or the other: Melee Attack, Fatigue, Melee Defense, Hit Points, and Ranged Attack. You want Ranged Attack because crossbows are magnificent backup weapons for your two-handed warriors.

    Sellswords are pretty good choices for this role, since they start with bonuses in both offensive stats. Hedge Knights, Wildmen, and Farmers can do very well in this role as well, and others might fit if they get good traits. If your character you’ve chosen has high enough fatigue (such as a Strong Athletic Wildman), you might not take Brawny at all, and instead get one of the perks from the Defense tree (+HP or -armor damage taken), or perhaps take Fearsome since any amount of HP damage from an AoE can then trigger morale breaks on the enemy.

    A general note is that a two-handed warrior is NOT an all-rounder. Two-handed warriors are specialists. Treat them as such. Make sure your defense-oriented characters have Rotation so you can pull your two-handed dudes out of a fight if you must; they can soak damage, but they can’t dodge or block it, so once their armor is almost gone they’re definitely going to need help.

    When fighting orc warriors, something to remember is that a Nimble fighter or shield fighter (whose enemies don’t have axes) can hold the line practically forever, allowing your two-handed warriors to stab at afar with polearms. HOWEVER, you don’t want anyone to be standing directly behind the defensive warriors, since if they’re adjacent an orcish warrior can simply shove them aside and then swing at the polearm fighters. Instead, have your pikemen/billmen keep a 1 tile distance away from both the orcs and the defender. They’re unlikely to try to break away from the defender if the defender has a high attack value, and they’re unlikely to shove him around if there’s nobody they can reach by shoving him. It’s a nice way of tangling orcs up if you have someone with incredible defense.

    (Note: the above piece on fighting orcs changes if your defenders have Indomitable.)

    Finally, one thing to remember is that you should always carry a ranged weapon (since you have two free hands anyway) via bags and belts. A crossbow or bow will give your heavily injured two-handed warriors an option when they back up from the fight. Furthermore, they should get plenty of shots thanks to Perfect Focus (again, a must-have if you bring a hornblower). And… remember that, presently, two-handed builds aren’t going to be the best mostly because there are a few specific builds that are simply rather dominant. But they do have their place, and they’re incredibly fun to play. Their damage is incredible, and they love wearing the best armor you can find. I like ’em.

    —————————-

    As an aside, Berserk is something I definitely like for two-handers, but I’m personally a fan of Perfect Focus over Killing Frenzy. This is largely because you can’t always make sure the two-hander guy secures kills, and sometimes it may just be more economical to let someone else take it because their weapon deals less damage and there’s a fresh orc standing to that wounded enemy’s left. But both the top-tier offense tree perks have huge value to a two-handed weapons guy, and I imagine Killing Frenzy is amazing with a two-handed hammer, especially with the right character traits.

    One thing I’ll note is I LOVE finding characters with massive starting fatigue pools (again, Wildman with Strong and Athletic, or Hedge Knight with similar) because I can give them much better defenses than usual. I once had a Wildman with Strong who I didn’t give Brawny OR Pathfinder to, but instead gave the HP-boosting AND armor damage taken reducing perks from the defense tree. This made for a massive increase in survivability, though the guy moved like a turtle through swamps.

    There’s a lot of really good Tier 2 offense tree perks, to be honest. Berserk and Full Force are just two of ’em. I could see the merit (if you wanted more oomph) in taking more Tier 2 offense perks in lieu of 1-2 Utility tree perks. Fast Adaption is good if you really need more Melee Attack; Close Combat Archer for when you want to shoot a guy with a crossbow, swap to your two-handed weapon, and swing at his face. (Again: thank you, Quick Hands + Bags and Belts.) Bullseye is good for just being able to play backup sniper, and Debilitate could be useful when fighting, say, an orcish warlord carrying a greataxe. All of this stuff is really, really juicy, and it’s worth experimenting with.

    Tier 1 perks for a two-handed weapons guy can be tough to choose. If you plan on using greataxes or the two-handed hammer, I’d definitely consider Crusher a good choice. Bloody Harvest and Sundering Strikes are both really good. Head Hunter could be good for Brutes, and Executioner is a good second pick after Sundering Strikes if you don’t plan on smashing shields. Really, there’s just a lot of good choices here, and the only one I’d say is a poor one for a two-handed guy is Push the Advantage – unless you’ve got a lot of macemen around and you’re specifically not fighting orcs.

    And again, your Tier 3 perks are both very good. But they operate very differently on the field: one gets extra damage for a brief time after each kill and doesn’t have fatigue issues, but the other makes multiple extra attacks and has more tactical mobility (move 2 tiles > perfect focus > stab with polearm) at the expense of lots and lots of fatigue. The other characters in your mercenary band are critical in deciding which to use, and if you decide to use the Perfect Focus perk, you need to keep your two-handed warrior within range of Rally the Troops.

    Lastly… One thing comes to mind that might be interesting to try: a two-handed Warrior with Footwork instead of Brawny. Again, you’d want high fatigue if you do this, but having the capability to pull out from bad situations with Footwork and then stab at your opponents via polearms could be incredibly useful. It’s a curious thought, but it might work with the right builds.

    #16421
    Wargasm
    Participant

    For example, a defensive brother using a shield, redundant against orc warrior and young orc does a good job at cleaving shield too. Good against arrow? Nay, those goblins will snipe your archer to death and won’t bother with him. Protect your archer against arrow? Plenty of time my archer die directly behide a shield-wall, guessing there no extra bonus to protect your archer except for block penalty. So why bother with shield perks? Maybe someone can prove me wrong.

    If a lot of your company have been taken to tier 2 of the utility tree, so that they can wear heavy armour and carry heavy shields and form lots of shieldwalls and use Bags&Belts + Quick-Handedness to instantly replace a broken shield or (depending on the enemy faced) swap a kite for a heater, then the shield-based tier 1 defence perks suddenly seem worthwhile (especially Deflect against orcs). By that point, some of them will even be capable of carrying around one of those massive, heavy, semi-indestructible orcish shields. Sometimes, you can loot special rare orcish shields that have even more durability and/or offer more defence (with potentially greater or lesser fatigue). Combine that with Deflect and the shield is almost indestructible and would zap all the energy of any gang of orcs that did smash it (and you’d still have one or two durable back-ups).

    #16422
    Wargasm
    Participant

    Sellswords are pretty good choices for this role.

    Sellswords are perfect for the role! They start with higher melee and ranged skill, and higher melee and ranged defence. They tend to have average max fatigue, but they usually start with several ready-made perks and level-ups, so that they can be instantly brawny and have all their skills increased to elite levels. With that taken care of, all of their newly acquired perks (which come thick and fast, thanks to the amount of damage dealt) can be picked from the offensive tree. They can be armed with 2-3 crossbows (or, better still, Spiked Impalers), along with a greatsword and a two-handed hammer or axe and perhaps (once they’ve gone berserk) a warbrand for applying a finishing touch with those 4 extra action points (bows/impalers can achieve the same end more efficiently, but maybe a warbrand is good for grueling fights where you’re locked in melee and have already fired all your bows and need an extra hit chance and two strikes per turn to finish off a foe). You’re spoiled for choice with the offensive perks. With lethal ranged weapons in reserve that cost minimal fatigue to fire, the combination of Close-Combat Archer and Killing Frenzy guarantees greatly enhanced damage with at least one weapon. But, for those occasions when an AoE attack misses all opponents, Fast Adaptation means you can take an impaler out of your pocket and be almost guaranteed to kill/wound/repel one of the bastards (and potentially make one or two of the others shit their pants). In fact, the impaler is a pretty good defensive weapon …

    #16429
    Nightlight
    Participant

    For example, a defensive brother using a shield, redundant against orc warrior and young orc does a good job at cleaving shield too. Good against arrow? Nay, those goblins will snipe your archer to death and won’t bother with him. Protect your archer against arrow? Plenty of time my archer die directly behide a shield-wall, guessing there no extra bonus to protect your archer except for block penalty. So why bother with shield perks? Maybe someone can prove me wrong.

    If a lot of your company have been taken to tier 2 of the utility tree, so that they can wear heavy armour and carry heavy shields and form lots of shieldwalls and use Bags&Belts + Quick-Handedness to instantly replace a broken shield or (depending on the enemy faced) swap a kite for a heater, then the shield-based tier 1 defence perks suddenly seem worthwhile (especially Deflect against orcs). By that point, some of them will even be capable of carrying around one of those massive, heavy, semi-indestructible orcish shields. Sometimes, you can loot special rare orcish shields that have even more durability and/or offer more defence (with potentially greater or lesser fatigue). Combine that with Deflect and the shield is almost indestructible and would zap all the energy of any gang of orcs that did smash it (and you’d still have one or two durable back-ups).

    Thanks for your insight. I guess I am too close-minded due to the existent of nimble swordsman build. I will once again try to build a shield brother once they update the new perks tree.

    Sorry for hijacking the trend with shield topic.

    #16439
    Sarissofoi
    Participant

    Shield-bearers are actually fairly decent all around troops but you need them to make them defensive-utility hybrid.
    Both variant defensive heavy or utility heavy are viable.
    Essential Defence
    Deflect-Shield expert-anything else but Battle forged recommended
    Hold out
    Essential Utility
    Quick hands-Belt and bags- pathfinder
    Brawny
    If going ‘Orcs can’t push me’ way
    Indomitable plus Rotation is nice but any other than Nimble is OK
    If going ‘Shield wall all day’ way
    Weaponmaster(for cheaper skill fatigue cost), Fearsome is also great eventually Sunder strike from Off tree or more 1st tier def perks as all of them are great in some way

    #16441
    Meeky
    Participant

    Yeah, shieldbearers CAN work. I’m typically far too in love with two-handers and einhanders to do it, which means my bowmen have to kill the other team’s bowmen ASAP, but… A good shield build CAN work.

    One thing to note about the Nimble fighter is that it takes melee defense to pretty much silly, unnecessary levels. 100+ melee defense is WAY more than is necessary. It’s just awesome to see those gigantic numbers.


    @Wargasm
    :

    Personally, rather than having 2-3 crossbows on my melee guys, I’d rather just have 1. Reason being: I can carry a variety of two-handed weapons, allowing me more flexibility in tactics, and potentially a dagger or scramsax (or whatever they’re called) for recovering armor via Puncture. I could see carrying 2 crossbows and NOT bringing a scramsax, but 3 would be overkill.

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