Topic: What with the balance?

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  • #21664
    exmahinator
    Participant

    There is one “small” trouble. Level of Veteran has a REALLY huge disadvantages what shouldn’t be… I mean I’ve played on beginner level as normal, had some times troublesome situations but in any case I was able to solve them, but once I’ve choosed Veteran – game become too difficult, even though this is not an Expert… What the hell is going on? The first mission to secure a caravan, the first one, and I was ambushed by Orc Berserker and 4 Orcs Younger. SERIOUSLY!? JUST bought few men, bought some simple weapon, because there are no money for more valuable things and I WAS AMBUSHED BY ORCS!? What the hell? It’s truly too unfair to the players. Also, how I should to beat full-armored Brigands with top weapons on second mission? I had 7 or 8 people, because it was the very beginning. After 100500 reloads I finally got a luck to kill those orcs, but what is going on? How I must to clear in 1-star mission a cemetery and find an Idol with 8 people against 10 full armored brigands? Is it joke of creators? Are you kidding with this balance? Also what’s wrong with chance to hit? 90% chance to hit – but, unbelievable, I’ve missed! And in that fight one simple Brigand without any armour and only with a pike, with just one killing blow finished my full armored guy with big shield, also he had full health – is it normal?
    Game is good, there is no another point, but this balance is really awful. Beginner – too easy, Veteran – almost unreal to play without instant loadings. There will be no trouble if I will have such high difficult in Expert, but on Veteran I think you’ve increased a difficulty too high, what shouldn’t be. Normal players who played enough with beginner level should have at least normal feelings in playing Veteran mode. Not easy but also not too difficult. It should be normal. At least to had some possibilities to finish 1-star quests without ambushes of a full armor brigands and a lot of orcs on 1st quest.
    I hope it will be fixed at least a little bit, because I can play on this degree but feels a really giant abyss between two nearby levels of difficulty. It should not be like this for a common player.

    #21673
    hruza
    Participant

    There is one “small” trouble. Level of Veteran has a REALLY huge disadvantages what shouldn’t be… I mean I’ve played on beginner level as normal, had some times troublesome situations but in any case I was able to solve them, but once I’ve choosed Veteran – game become too difficult, even though this is not an Expert… What the hell is going on?

    Go back to beginner then, no one is forcing you to play on difficulty which you can’t handle.

    The first mission to secure a caravan, the first one, and I was ambushed by Orc Berserker and 4 Orcs Younger. SERIOUSLY!? JUST bought few men, bought some simple weapon, because there are no money for more valuable things and I WAS AMBUSHED BY ORCS!? What the hell? It’s truly too unfair to the players.

    Should those orcs ask you for a permission to attack the caravan or what exactly did you expect them to do?

    Caravan escort missions are better to be avoided early on, no matter how many skulls they have. They’re just too unpredictable because you can run in to anything roaming around the map.

    How I must to clear in 1-star mission a cemetery and find an Idol with 8 people against 10 full armored brigands? Is it joke of creators? Are you kidding with this balance?

    You don’t have to do anything. Nobody is forcing you to fight 10 full armored brigands, whatever that means. One of the first things you should learn about this game, especially on higher difficulties is to know when to fight and when not.

    Also what’s wrong with chance to hit? 90% chance to hit – but, unbelievable, I’ve missed!

    What’s wrong with your math skill instead? 90% is not 100%. Yes, you can still miss.

    And in that fight one simple Brigand without any armour and only with a pike, with just one killing blow finished my full armored guy with big shield, also he had full health – is it normal?

    Armored with what, leather jacket? I came across many shields in the game, but I did not see anything named “big shield”. Not that it matter if enemy scores hit, because shield lowers chance to hit, not the damage. And full health is what? 43?

    You should be more specific and you should also check battle log (how much damage to what part of body, how much armor was hit and how much HP). Pike can do between 60-80 damage, have bonus chance to hit and bonus chance to hit head on top of that. Yes it can one shot kill under right conditions. Even if target wears armor.

    Game is good, there is no another point, but this balance is really awful. Beginner – too easy, Veteran – almost unreal to play without instant loadings.

    There are plenty of people, including me playing on veteran on ironman.

    Normal players who played enough with beginner level should have at least normal feelings in playing Veteran mode. Not easy but also not too difficult. It should be normal.

    It’s called Veteran, not Normal for a reason. You seems to be confusing two.

    At least to had some possibilities to finish 1-star quests without ambushes of a full armor brigands and a lot of orcs on 1st quest.

    One star missions are not full of armor brigands and lot of orcs. At last not at the beginning of the game.

    I will repeat what I said already: the first rule of playing this game -on any difficulty, but higher ones especially is know when to fight and when to avoid fighting. If you fail to do that, you will have very hard time. Some quests are not worth finishing and some battles are not worth fighting. And -loosing the battle is not end of the game.

    #21675
    epman13
    Participant

    There is no balance in the game. It is just the way it is, but you just need to learn how to use it to your advantage.

    #21682
    Namespace
    Participant

    5 orcs is doable but difficult, even if its the first mission. 10 raiders sounds a bit much. Was it a 3-skull contract?
    Anyways, game is randomly generated. If you try again you will get different missions and maybe do better.
    I don’t think Veteran is too hard, in my experience it’s just slightly bigger enemy troops. By the way, you could have run into 5 orcs on beginner just as well. Maybe it would have been 4 instead.

    #21687
    Phalanthir
    Participant

    LEGIONS NEED A HUGE NERF!
    So i really lovet this game, you made orks balanced, and all balanced now, but the new undead legion is so owerpowered its unbeliveable.
    Why?
    So they are undead.. they cant suffer from any effects that you could tactically use agaisnt other enemies i mean no fear, no bleeding, and they doesnt have fatigue penalty, and you cant use arrows on them (dont come with u can destroy their armor bullshit, arrows are useless vs them) so u cant get advantage from ranged attacks. You cant use spear wall taht is really effective against all, but vs legionaries u cant, cuz they got 50% dmg from spear so it is simply not effective. Moreover they are like real living humans, they have the same action points, they can use skills like shieldwall, and fearsome (that is op again, vs late game company too) and etc. So if u fight them they do double line with spears, and shieldwall, so first you must destroy their shields to can score a hit (have u ever really tested these legionaries? if they use shield wall i can score 2-3/10 hit that is ridiculus) and after taht u have destroyed their shields u start hitting ( they got double grip now of course and two hits that sucks too). Ok u got axes and blunt weapons the finest weapons (fighting axe winged maces) u fight them, but u need heavy armor to survive the first 4 rounds. (dont forget the second lane with high accuracy and dmg spears) After the 4th 5th rounds your men start to be exhausted. so you can hit one that is all, when that comes they just massacre your man because they never got exhausted.
    I beg you do something with that, they are not just overpowered enemies they are like gods vs humans and its not normal.

    #21688
    RusBear
    Participant

    Game have problem with enemie’s numbers on expert in midle and late game. Some problem with marksmen – looks like they have 2 or 3 “bulleye perks” in 1 time ) And old problem with bad reward( crowns and loot) for hard enemies. “Brigants are your best loot friends” – little sad. All rest Steam cry about too OP goblins, orcs, legioners and so on – just assfire from casuals.

    #21693
    hruza
    Participant

    So i really lovet this game, you made orks balanced, and all balanced now, but the new undead legion is so owerpowered its unbeliveable.

    I beg to differ. They have low initiative, don’t use any ranged, have extremely low HP, and they have crappy armors and generally subpar weapons (sometimes broken).

    So they are undead.. they cant suffer from any effects that you could tactically use agaisnt other enemies i mean no fear, no bleeding, and they doesnt have fatigue penalty, and you cant use arrows on them (dont come with u can destroy their armor bullshit, arrows are useless vs them) so u cant get advantage from ranged attacks.

    Destroying their armor with arrows is perfectly good tactics against them. What problem do you have with it? Besides, you can always use throwing axes. So yes, you can get advantage from ranged.

    You cant use spear wall taht is really effective against all, but vs legionaries u cant, cuz they got 50% dmg from spear so it is simply not effective.

    And aging wrong. Spearwall and Spears work perfectly well against them. Yes, spears do only 50% damage, however that apply only to their HP. Their armor suffers full damage and since their HP is so low, 50% reduction doesn’t matter that much. Moreover 20 bonus to hit from a spear practically overrides their shield defense. Spear is actually pretty good choice against undead in case your brothers don’t have good melee attack stats. Of course, if your brothers have 70/80+ melee attack, there are better weapons to use against undead.

    Moreover they are like real living humans, they have the same action points, they can use skills like shieldwall, and fearsome (that is op again, vs late game company too) and etc. So if u fight them they do double line with spears, and shieldwall, so first you must destroy their shields to can score a hit (have u ever really tested these legionaries? if they use shield wall i can score 2-3/10 hit that is ridiculus) and after taht u have destroyed their shields u start hitting ( they got double grip now of course and two hits that sucks too).

    Given all ancient dead have shield mastery, destroying their shields is generally bad idea. It just takes too much time and fatigue. Situationaly it might be plausible tactics, but generally you want to avoid it.

    Ok u got axes and blunt weapons the finest weapons (fighting axe winged maces) u fight them, but u need heavy armor to survive the first 4 rounds. (dont forget the second lane with high accuracy and dmg spears) After the 4th 5th rounds your men start to be exhausted. so you can hit one that is all, when that comes they just massacre your man because they never got exhausted.
    I beg you do something with that, they are not just overpowered enemies they are like gods vs humans and its not normal.

    Consider taking recover as a perk, it helps against other enemies too.

    Bring flails for your first line with shields. Flails ignore shield defense (but not shieldwall). Flails do wonders against undead.

    Your main hitting power should however be your second line with polearms or longaxes. Pikes and billhoks have 50% penalty against undead, but just like in case with spears, it apply only to their HP, which is low anyway. The main problem with undead is to crack through their hard shell made of armor and shields to get to their soft low HP pool.

    Let your first line with shields fix their line in place, maintain shieldwall as long as you can, or as long as it is tactically necessary, while your second line is concentrating on one or two enemies at the time. Don’t let yourself be distracted by lower attack chances, it takes only few hits to bring them down. Also watch for opportunities, sometimes some of them do 2 attacks and don’t shieldwall. Concentrate on those.

    Their pikemen are the real hitting power and are by far more dangerous then legionaries. If enemy brings them to battle, consider sending flanking force made of few 2H experts, supported by few polearms/longaxes. You want to get rid of as many of their pikes as fast as possible. Fact that undead maintain rigid formation helps a lot with flanking.

    If they bring honor guards, you may want to have some 2H expert with the 2H hammer. Works extremely well against them. Accidentally it works well also against their pikemen.

    Given low initiative of undead, overwhelm perk works well against them. However since they don’t tire while you do, you will eventually loose this advantage in the course of the prolonged fight. With undead, you always want to get maximum from the first few rounds of the combat. You want to dispatch as many of theirs as possible so that you tip balance of the fight to your favor. Concentrate on those who don’t use shields (auxiliaries, pikemen) or who don’t shieldwall in that particular round. Having second line with the pikes as well as few dedicated 2H is essential.

    #21706
    Namespace
    Participant

    Pikes and billhoks have 50% penalty against undead

    I am fairly certain it is just pikes and billhooks have 100% dmg. Their damage type should be slashing, maybe blunt.


    @Phalanthir
    I think hruza summarized it pretty well. I would just add a few things.
    Since they use a very tight line formation, you can basically tank 2 shieldionaires + 2 pikers with just one shield bro if you leave a hex space between them. This allows you to send more people around the flanks to take care of the pikers. Try to get 2-3 guys with mace mastery to fight them. When they are in a good position, they can keep 2 pikers in stun-lock which will give you time to take care of them and pretty much eliminate the threat. Their frontliners will mostly use shieldwall and only attack once. If your own shield bros will spam shieldwall and sometimes use recover it should be easy to tank them.

    You say Archers are useless? Have you ever used warbows before? With a basic one you probably need 3 arrows to completely melt a piker’s armor, leaving them to be a oneshot to pretty much anything. This works especially well with greatswords’ split skill.

    Yes, legionaires are pretty dangerous in the early to midgame when your guys are still wearing light armor and don’t have a lot of melee skill/defense. Once you get your frontliners with battle forged and 200+/200+ armors they become much less of a threat. This should be around lv7-8 of your brothers. They will probably have around ~20 base melee defense by then which gets to around 60 with a heater shield and shieldwall, 10% extra from confident maybe.
    With underdog to counter surround-bonus and an estimated ~60-70 melee skill on legionaires this will leave them to hit maybe 10-20% of their attempted attacks. Steel Brow also helps mitigate a lot of the damage you take from piker’s headshots (armor penetration)

    #21713
    Primeless
    Participant

    i just can say: ALWAYS wear headgear.

    whatever you do, dont tell anyone.

    #21748
    coinoperated
    Participant

    After playing 2 Beginner campaigns and one vet campaign, i think the balance from beginner to vet is a bit of a jump. But saying that, it is not unplayable.
    Sure sometimes you will get unlucky and ground into the dirt, but it makes the fights more interesting.

    Playing Vet has definitely made me play smarter, using nets and better skill/weapon/perk assignments for my mercs. I have to admit if there was a ‘Normal’ difficulty level (between beg and vet) it might make a nice balance for people having issues with Vet yet finding beginner too easy.

    #21775
    varow
    Participant

    The game has one big problem – it doesn’t encourage attacking at all. Attackers always spends stamina, are easy targets for marksmen and have AP only for one hit.

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