Efgrafich

[Efgrafich]

LasseFin wrote:

The thing is, I feel like you are a bit more fixated with numbers…

My original question is not about actual numbers, its about logic – how you can you get multiple times more tired by just holding stuff, than actually swing with them. And then, someone said that i’m wrong, because that stuff is extremelly heavy to use…. and now we here.

PS I do not reject your information, but you should consider, that reproduction is not a solution for everything.

Sorry for language.
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[Efgrafich]

LasseFin wrote:

These shields are all quite small with the biggest one being 24″, which is significantly smaller than even the average roundshield of Battle Brothers (which would probably be about 30″)…

Sorry, but that probably all evidences, that we have. But if you look on that table again, you can see that heaviest steel shileds is about 6kg. And that is mostly parade and ceremonial ones(that page have paragraph that explained why this is so), with all that unnecessary ornaments and other fancy things.
And if you are not satisfied with 22” shields, there is also average density of wooden shields(i dont think that wood changed his qualities since 13th century).
If you do the math for 30”(what is bigger than road velobike’s wheel) and 10mm thick(which is more than enough), you’ll get about 4kg, which is about 1kg more than 22”, and this is a maximum, i.e. worst case – for thick shield and dense wood.

PS Also, i think that you, guys, too fixated on numbers. Try think about, that medieval people were not mad or stupid, they dont carry into battle gear, that they could not effective handle for hours. And also, i’m pretty sure, they had some unpredictable things that could accounted(ones that may prolong the battle, for example).
PPS And, finally, there some points about shields form actual archeologist.

Sorry for language.
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[Efgrafich]

McKing wrote:

If you want to argument, at least google a bit, and find some references if you want to crictise something, like the weight of shields. “I don’t think so” is no argument.

Efgrafich wrote:

Is that huge sparthan bronze shield? There no shield of that kind in the game or in medieval warfare. Try look at this

That link, which was supposed to be in a quote.
And i actually HAD some evidences. I know is a bit difficult in this topic, but dont sparse your attention, please.

PS And i should remind you, guys, that game already have max fatigue penalty for wearing stuff which, increases with weight of that stuff and that is absolutely logical thing for me.

Sorry for language.
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[Efgrafich]

If you want to proper critic, you should account all arguments. Not pick one that suited for you.
So, you wrote that in medieval were greek-like huge and heavy round shields(intended to parry), and show a picture and compare them with tower shields(intended to cover, and also can be grounded). Say about medieval pikes, but show renessance ones. Completly ignore my arguments about skirmish, and only mention the conclusion – thats your favorite method, as i can see.

hruza wrote:

shield/spear wall is not ability or stance, it’s description of formation

– Its clearly description of passive ability, triggered when you near friends, dont fool yourself.

hruza wrote:

Yes, enemy have to react to the attack. So what?

React to energy that suddenly transferred with the attack, i.e. suffer(and conditions for that i already described).

hruza wrote:

Your picture have nothing to do with reality.

– Yes, that picture intended to show stupidity of situation, but this does not make it less realistic.

hruza wrote:

Second of all because pike is not held in the middle like you have drawn, therefore there is no “massive leverage.”

Yes, but that way you have even greater leverage on the other side of pike. What happens, you think, if someone just, you now, hit it somewhat hard with sword?

hruza wrote:

First of all because you don’t strike over the head of soldiers in the front rank, you strike between them.

Okay, i can see that: “You! Yes, you, guy in the 1st line. Dont move and stand still, please, i should poke that friend of yours behind you with that long and very vulnerable stick”
Also, another argument for me, there are pretty famous “pikes vs swords” fight in history. Romans 1, Greeks 0 – AWAY WIN.

hruza wrote:

Pike IS PURE foot weapon. It have nothing to do with cavalry gear.

I said that about your urge to huge one-handed spears. Also cavalry actually have pikes, but they call them lances.

Sorry for language.
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[Efgrafich]

hruza wrote:

Average Greek aspis shield weighted about 7-8 kg.

Is that huge sparthan bronze shield? There no shield of that kind in the game or in medieval warfare. Try look at this

hruza wrote:

In real life shield/spear wall is not ability or stance

Efgrafich wrote:

I think all defensive abilities should be passive (with nerf their effects of course)

I do not see any contradiction here. So what is your point? I should remind you that game has already max fatigue penalty for wearing spear/shield/whateverelse.

hruza wrote:

but they face 3 guys themselves

And also have 2 friends by sides. And so on. Yes. Everyone is equal busy(except for the flanks, of course). Does this make things more complicated? Yes. Does game have proper mechanic for this? No. That what i’m talking about.

nope100500 wrote:

When you placing blow, you tired yourself releasing something energy, and opponent(if not completly evade) must deal with that energy, not just ignore it

I really confused that i’m forced to write this again. There is my point and you dont say anything about that.

hruza wrote:

Pikes were actually between 3-8 meters in length. Guy on your diagram would be perfectly safe. 2.5 meters is length of average spear.

There question not really about length, because for this goal, you always need to have angle for proper attack. You cant just push it throught first line’s shoulder horizontally, because that actually involve first line(and you most likely lost your huge pike, thanks to huge lever). And again, some diagram, just for you:
And, by the way, there are no renaissance pikes in medieval, you now? Because it’s has very specific use, and dont very suitable for footman skirmish. Also, i think that you merge footman and cavalry gear.

Sorry for language.
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[Efgrafich]

I think you read my tesisis, but mostly skip or ignore the explanations.

hruza wrote:

“abstraction”

Of course its all about abstraction. Problem is, there not enough of it. I think, you agree, that engaged figure participate in combat, even if he’s turn already done/not yet started (there is another issue about current turn system, but not now) and enemy not just “teleport” to not engaged target(unsless its some of leap/dash/etc ability, of course), so target actually have time to react. And that’s where described problems come from.

Okay, lets start:

10kg shields??? Really?? Sorry, but that just not viable thing, not for footman. What you think it made from? Mostly its a dish-size metal plate(for balance and punching, not for defence), and rest of the thin wood, or even plywood, with totally about 2-2,5kg. Biggest one-handed bastard swords ~1,5kg max, spears about ~1kg, that is average milk packaging, and you dont need to hold this up all the time, just place it on shield/clamp with elbow/etc. Even ridiculusly long renessance pikes may be just supported by the ground, like on your photo.

I try to say, that you dont need perform a “special” action to form a spear/shieldwall with others, you just need to be near them. Reread where i write about “passive abilities”.

Of course on wall-on-wall combatant faces 3 opponents. Idea is – everybody faces 3 opponents, if you get attacked by 1+2 neighboring guys, you defended not only by yourself, but also by 2 neighboring friends. Reread where i write about “free opponnents”.

When i say about miss hits, i mean completly miss. When you placing blow, you tired yourself releasing something energy, and opponent(if not completly evade) must deal with that energy, not just ignore it – also get tired from parry, and, if not have shield or sword, suffer big damage to weapon.

hruza wrote:

This how:

Really?? I couldn’t hit just through first line, you should avoid it. I make some diagram, just for you:

PS Anyway, thanks for response.
PPS Why this forum not have preview function? That very inconvinient.

Sorry for language.
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