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hruzaParticipantWhy xbow (crossbow) is so weak compared to bow?
It isn’t. I find it quit balanced and fairly historically accurate.
Maybe i haven’t played long enough, but right now i can see that in DMG bow=xbow
That’s realistic. Xbows weren’t more powerful then bows. They both use human muscle energy to fire, so they are bound to be more or less on par.
Range of bow is > that xbow (7 to 6) that is strange
Again, realistic and historically accurate. Xbow bolts are very short and they don’t maintain stability well in flight. Longer the distance, more they start to wobble which increases drag and shortens the range.
Yes accuracy of bow is a bit lower, but you can shoot 2 arrows for 1 bolt per turn!
You can only shoot 2 unaimed shots with poor accuracy and penalty to damage and lower range (effectively equal to xbow). If your archer is very skilled and target is close, he can pull it off. But otherwise you need aimed shot which cost the same as xbow shot. Except xbow is still more accurate anyway.
so what do you think about xbow right now?
If you have very skilled archer (70+ skill) and your opponents are not heavily armored, go for bow. In any other case xbow will be probably superior.
Xbow is more accurate, have better armor penetration (enhanced further by perk) and allows you to shoot and move, or other way around at the same turn. Of course that requires xbow to be already loaded at the beginning of the turn. This is advantage easy to miss but very useful if you use shoot tactically. For example since xbow comes already loaded at the start of the turn, you can fire at the enemy, retreat 3 tiles and shoot at him the second time as he closes next turn. At the same time, you can only fire 2 weak shots from bow, which are inferior in damage, accuracy and equal in range. In other cases you can move xbowmen in to firing position and fire at the same turn, making it impossible for enemy to react.
Overall both bows and xbows are well balanced, they have their strengths and weaknesses and which one is better depends on circumstances.
hruzaParticipantin my last 2 expert mode game was 8/30(63 days) and 8/16(51 days), but still, these ranged raiders wont match what those tier 2 skeletons did to me.
You mean legionaries? Those dudes are tough. At last when you have to cut through all that shields and armor. Luckily once you crack their shell, they’re quit squishy inside. And their pikemen are deadly.
hruzaParticipantJust quickly looking at the Obituary in my current game (217 days):
From 25 brothers killed by raiders, only 2 were shot by marksmen. That’s less then one in ten.
hruzaParticipantHowever the AI can field more units and does not have to worry about limited resources and time. Not only do these units spawn with their stats and gear, but they can easily show up 15+ strong to an engagement. An enemy spawning instantly with a perk is in no way similar to you having to get your guys through 6+ engagements to take the same perk. Lets say I take your suggestion and hire 3-4 brothers with decent ranged stats and give them very light armor with crossbows. Will they be at all comparable to enemy marksmen with crossbow mastery? I haven’t looked at the code myself. I can’t comment on what other advantages or disadvantages they may or may not have. To recap:
Greater Unit fielding capability + No logistical or resource cap means that it is not presented on an even field with the player.
The same rules do not in any way apply to the player. The marksmen you can field yourself are some of the most deadly units around if you can get them to the proper level, so the charge that the players marksmen aren’t any good isn’t true. What is true is that the player and the AI are in no way subject to the same rules. It is not an even field.No, field is in fact still in player’s favor. They can spawn with more then 12, but they can spawn also with less. Meanwhile it’s in players hands how many brothers he will bring (up to 12). AI spawns with equipment, yes, but can’t change it. It can’t reequip based on how many ranged did you player brought to battle. Did player brought lot of ranged and bandit have spawned without the shield? Bad luck. AI spawns leveled, but can’t level more. It’s struck at the same level and equipment forever. In most cases AI can’t decide when to fight and when not. You can outrun it and it won’t retreat from the battle unless loosing. Yes AI does not have to pay wages, not it have to feed it’s troops. But it also can’t hire more and buy better equipment. Those are just examples where player have advantage. You can sure find more. And then there is human brain, which no AI can compete with. It will newer learn from mistakes.
hruzaParticipantEven making it so crit hits only effect your health AFTER you loose armor would be a huge benifit to the game (or 2 types of crits…1 for just armor (20%), and 1 for body (5%))…something like this
Well if hitting head deals critical damage (which is just 50% more …not really that bad) and some weapon ignore armor, which in real life equals to penetrating it, I would see it as a bit illogical.
Steel Brow is perk which I give to all brothers and it’s available at level 3, so very affordable. So there is way to counter it and make RNG less unpredictable if you feel that’s what you want.
hruzaParticipantI didn’t say the archer was my only counter. I said he was the specialized counter, I bring crossbowmen as well.
OK, I misunderstood you then. Still, I wouldn’t encourage too much specialization in this game as a strategy. Of course you can do it just for fun of it. Certain level of specialization is necessary of course but too much will hurt you. Having pampered that one merc in to superman in some task just to see him die from lucky crossbow bolt in to the eye must be frustrating. And given nature of this game, he will inevitably catch one sooner or later. Or meet end in some other unfortunate way.
I like to equip my team for each specific battle and that requires certain level of versatility in brothers (and lot of inventory space for equipment). Sometimes I tend to bring only crossbows in to the fight, other time I like all bows (case with raiders). And all my ranged have to be competent in close combat as well. Usually as a second row with polearms or long axes. Or give them sword and shield when facing those damn goblins, because anybody without shield is near useless against them and exchanging fire with goblins is sure way to loose.
I also tend to build reserve, so I have brothers with different levels in learning circling in the battle. That way when I loose somebody, I don’t have to place fresh recruit in to his place and start from the ground. At last not all the time.
Mercs are only ever encountered during missions with clear skull difficulty ratings. Tell me this @hruza: how often have you been attacked on the worldmap by a roaming band of mercenaries outside of any quest event? Does it happen often?
You can encounter mercs during several missions which can have one or two skulls. Notably carry package mission.
We haven’t even talked about numbers yet. So @hruza, how often have you been able to field 15 soldiers instead of 12 to make up for the roles you replaced with crossbowmen?
I don’t know why developers decided to limit player to 12 on the battlefield. There might be some programing reasons. I think more would strain player from management point. However there are plenty of the times when you are facing less then 12 and it’s you who have advantage. So it’s sort of fair. I didn’t take on those huge noble armies so far and honestly seeing them few times in combat I don’t know how’s that even possible. But so far I don’t have 12 swords for hire in heavy armor, with legendary weapons and level 11 and above, so perhaps that’s how :)
This raider defense mission has protection target locations pretty close by, so you’re looking at a 12 vs 22 with 6+ crossbowmen. Damn you world gen rng. I know, you can walk away.
Exactly, you can walk away ;) There will be another quest with only 6 raiders and locations not too close :) There’s very little penalty for failing missions. Except few, and in this particular case you would get small decrease in reputation with the settlement, and settlement would lack certain goods for some time.
The enemy can and does pick battles. Are you telling me that every single pack of direwolves/bandits/orcs runs straight for you? Absolutely not. Some do and some don’t. That suggestion is a bit silly.
They can’t, you can outrun most of them. Exceptions are very rare.
I stand by every single point that I’ve made. My guy might get 1-shotted by a 2h or an orc. That’s fine, I accept and expect it.
You just made me smile (in a good sense) :) Do you know that people in the Middle ages had considered crossbow to be “unfair” and “unsporty” weapon? Gutting each other with swords or axes, smashing skulls with clubs and maces, quartering people or burning on the stake (burning was actually considered good and clean death, which is why it was reserved for women), but crossbows? UNFAIR! Pope have it even outlawed at one point. At last in fights between Christians. For use against infidels it was OK.
Your attitude is pretty close to it. -I love level of historical authenticity in this game :D
In the current build, enemy raiders usually move to cover exposed marksmen. Not every time, but often, so the claim that they often expose themselves needlessly is complete bunk. With the nerf to bullseye that makes it fairly difficult for your own backline marksmen to take out the priority units. When they don’t move into cover or have high ground they usually have allied cover. Maybe in 1-3 fights I’ll see an archer remain exposed for a few turns, but not too often.
They do expose themselves in my game. You need to have more then 2 ranged units however in my experience for that to happen. First they turtle, but once you kill few of his front liners, they tend to start acting more actively. They either send part of their force to charge you or they expose their ranged.
But as I said, if they don’t so much better. I can just pick his melee off one by one. Bringing spare ammo helps of course.
Stop assuming that because I dislike an enemy type that I can’t handle the game.
I don’t assume anything and I newer said you can’t play. I just react to what you have written yourself. You expressed repeatedly that you have issue with bandit marksmen. That’s what I am discussing. I don’t face anything close to frustration you express when facing them. They are dangerous, but nothing exceptional. They did gave me trouble at the beginning when I had underestimated them, but since I learned the hard way not to ignore them, they’re manageable. I am trying to tell you how I do things, in order to fight them, and since I have nowhere as much trouble with them as you, means I must be doing something right.
hruzaParticipantThey are hidden unless they attack, which un-hides them for the remainder of the turn. You can also see them if they are engaged in melee.
So letting them wait to act at the very end of the turn would grant them impunity? Unless enemy made their ranged wait as well (but then with their high initiative they would still act before you). Or will they be still exposed at the beginning of the next turn?
Anyways, you are talking about late-game and sekata is talking about early game if I understand that correctly.
No, I am talking about early to mid game. Raiders are meant to be challenging early on. You aren’t supposed to plow through hordes or raiders and marksmen without effort. At last that’s what I think. later there are other challenges.
hruzaParticipantThis is why my suggestion is more to change how crits work with ranged weapons which atm can be quite broken (i can show u a screen shot of my ranged taking 57 dmg from a light crossbow hit while wearing 70/70 durability helmet).
Light crossbow does 30-50 damage, 50% ignores armor, that’s 15-25, head-shot is x1.5 and if enemy had crossbow expertise, additional 20% ignores armor.
30 x 0.7 x 1.5 = 31.5
50 x 0.7 x 1.5 = 52.5So enemy marksman with light crossbow and xbow expertise can do maximum of 31.5-52.5 damage. I am aware of the fact that there is some additional reduction on damage done by armor, so it’s probably slightly less.
Now there might be some additional perks or traits in play which ups damage so 57 is not entirely impossible without math behind it being broken.
However you may still fill bug report or request to devs.
Personally, and just my opinion, changing crossbows to be unable to crit, change their crit chance to something lower than 25%, change the mechanic so the crit only does 1.5x damage to armor but no extra to body, special helmets u can buy to decrease crit chance, easier to find/train archers, decrease archery skill of marksman/poachers, all are valid. And I don’t think it has to be a big change, just some minor balancing to how ranged works atm. Of course this is just my opinion and for all I know making some of these changes could potentially unbalance the game in other regards.
But would you agree that the same will apply to you as a player? Because then I see lot of other players coming and complaining about their archers and crossbowmen being useless.
One of the better part of this game is it’s AI. One of the best AI I have ever seen in a game. Fact that unlike most other games, AI plays with the same stats as a player and is able to present competent challenge without need of cheating is a testimony to the brilliance of the game and I don’t want to see it changed.
hruzaParticipantRNG is inherent in the combat. It can’t help but use RNG. It could spawn fewer crossbowmen, or tone down their initiative, or their perks. I’m with rydinhigh64.
I did not see code but to me their stats and perks are nothing unusual, nothing you don’t have access to. Their very high initiative comes from the fact that they use very light or no armor and light weapons (mix of tier 1 and 2 bows and crossbows). If you would equip your level 4-5 brother the same way and gave him few points more in to initiative, he would be acting before enemy marksmen in combat.
Bandit marksmen are nothing but middle level guys with very light equipment.
hruzaParticipantFrom a balancing perspective, a “normal” ranged enemy, i.e. marksman or poacher, should not be able to kill ur ranged with cover in 2 shots because of RNG in a game that wants you to play it on ironman.
What should game use instead or RNG in this case?
hruzaParticipant1. Mercenaries are not a common enemy. The player usually does not encounter them often over the course of the game. When I have, I see maybe 2 crossbowmen?
They are enemy you will encounter at one point or another. What will you do then? And I have faced mercenary companies with 3 or 4 ranged units.
2. I use a counter archer with anticipation, dodge, heavy points in initiative/ranged def and bow specialty. That role has frequently been killed by concentrated fire. More often, the counter archer in training gets killed before getting specced and the process starts all over again.
Single ranged brother is bit too little for this and specializing him in single role seems like a waste anyway. If you want to counter enemy ranged with your own ranged, you need to bring more. I train all my ranged units as a second line fighters who can switch to pikes or long axes. That gives me some flexibility.
3. More on perfect generation, it’s not infrequent for maps to generate with the backline marksmen simply given the high ground.
It’s equally frequent to generate maps where your back line is on the high ground. It’s not that maps are unfair to player.
It used to be that if you moved out of range, the markesmen would chase and expose themselves. I have not seen that in recent patches.
They still do once you kill one or two of his troops. AI seems to like to turtle but if you manage to score few hits, it will try something. I saw it send few melee forward to threaten me -so much better, I just pull back a little while puncturing them will arrows. In other occasions I saw AI ranged to step forward exposing themselves.
In any case, if AI turtles, that’s a good thing. I can pick his front troops at a leisure. Then just charge once he is down in numbers. But I saw that happen only when I had just single ranged in company. If you bring more, AI will eventually do something.
So in a situation where by diceroll 3-4 marksmen are shooting you from high ground and your own ranged troops don’t have the range to counter, what are you proposing to do?
First, look for weak spots of his line which are not cowered by his range. Second, look if you can attack from angle which obstructs his view/fire. I had battle were raiders spawned on a hill 4 tiles high with 3 ranged units. I got one brother wounded right at the start, before I could even move. What I did was to leave one merc just outside of his range and send rest circling to the left where I first scouted suitable terrain. I was able to approach his position from there and get up to level with him before he could use his ranged effectively. Once on the hill I also charged brother which was left in place to effectively flank and threaten his ranged once he rearranged his troops to face mine coming from his right. At the end I was able to win without loosing anybody. Of course with some luck, but loosing brothers here and there is simply part of this game, you can’t expect otherwise. You have to accept fact, that you will loose brothers. Otherwise it is impossible to play this game. That bye the way means that you shouldn’t treat (and develop) your brothers as irreplaceable. You always should have other brothers who can fill up his place in a battle line. If you don’t you have to hire them.
Also there are fights which you simply are not meant to fight. If odds are against you, retreat to fight another day. Most of my disasters have happened when I have decided to push my luck too far and fight against superior enemy thinking that I might just pull it off.
4. Bringing kite shields is fine in theory, but it also means that once your shields are engaged in melee combat (where your frontline spends most of its time) they have sacrificed a major stat to deal with the skirmish phase. So it basically boils down to pick your death, ranged or melee. In a scenario where your entire frontline has kite shields, but you don’t have a capable archer/marksmen with bullseye and a few more levels, you’re in for a slogfest with a high chance of losses one way or another.
Alternative is to get pelted by the arrows. Which is much worst. besides nobody said that you have to fight whole time with shields, if you want, you can carry secondary 2H weapon and switch once in melee. However bandits are not particularly tough enemy, with exception of their leaders so you don’t really need that much punch to deal with them. And every archer or crossbowman they have is one less melee fighter you will face.
5. Bandit marksmen lack armor, but I’ve mentioned that they have rotation. The AI is smart and crossbowmen usually take cover. When caught, they often rotate out.
You have to engage his melee fighters otherwise AI is smart to protect their archers and will send melee fighters against your flanker. When you catch his ranged without melee nearby, they can’t rotate.
On top of that, any single brother attempting to close with backline marksmen is usually focus fired and rendered incapable of safely chasing. Bandit Marksmen have high initiative, so it’s extremely difficult for an armored brother with a kite shield to actually catch up before being intercepted
That’s why he carries kite shield. Besides, he doesn’t have to necessarily catch his ranged. His main purpose is to threaten his ranged, forcing them out of their cower, exposing them to your ranged, forcing them to waste their APs moving instead of shooting. Aimed bow shot and reload/shot of the crossbow takes full 9 APs. If you force him to move just one tile, you robed him of one shot. Sure, he can still take unaimed shot or shoot and reload his xbow next move. But that’s shot with lower damage and accuracy with bow and one less shot for crossbow in the long run.
Don’t just rush strait for his ranged, move to the position where you can catch him the next move and he will be forced to react, or get caught next turn. Use opportunity as it presents.
And if enemy focus fire your brother, so much better. I rather have them shoot at heavily armored guy with the kite shield rather then one of my more vulnerable ones. If enemy have lot of ranged, send more brothers.
I’ve frequently been in engagements where the enemy raiders have a frontline with shields and chainmail. Raiders have a chance of spawning with leather armor, but they also have a chance of spawning with very good equipment. I build my essential ranged units with ranged defense and anticipation, but have still had some 1st round killed by 3-4 marksmen that were given high ground on spawn. This is a complete diceroll. It’s completely down to chance. A gamble.
But that’s what this whole game is based on :) A dice rolls. All you can do is to make sure odds are as much in your favor as possible. As I said before, you have to accept that you will have losses in this game. Developers have stressed as much.
I’ve also been in situations where i’ll move a unit into a brush for cover and an enemy archer will still target him. The last time there was no brother on any adjacent tile. He hadn’t made an active move after moving into the bush and so shouldn’t have been visible. He was still shot.
I don’t know how “hiding” mechanics works in game, I expected hidden brothers to be invisible just like his units are to me. Was there some dev blog about hide mechanics? Myself I would be interested in this. I didn’t utilize hiding to much so far as it is very situational but I was planing to explore it bit more.
Most of your counter play scenarios require time to implement (leveled brothers), or perfect generation circumstances i.e a poorly equipped bandit frontline. Bandit armies make up what, 40-60% of engagements in battle brothers? Losing a level 6 to a backline of marksmen that spawned on a hill within 5 seconds of the first turn doesn’t do much for me.. Especially when there’s a chance of that happening every few quests/encounters given how often you fight bandits. I’ve defended some of the game design decisions myself. I’ve said before, I want to believe it’s balanced, but when all of the counterplay for a given enemy requires perfect generation circumstances, unlikely given their frequency, you’re gambling and not gaming.
There is chance of loosing any of your brothers in any fight. Hit from 2H raider axe can end your lvl. 6 brother just as good as crossbow bolt. It’s not that crossbows have some insane uncommon damage or accuracy. And raiders, their ranged units including are by far not the toughest opponents out there.
The frequency with which bandit marksmen spawn, their high lethality, the lack of logistical concerns from AI camps means that just by simple eventuality they’ll kill a high level brother and turn the game into a grindfest of attrition. That wouldn’t be so bad if it didn’t take hours to retrain brothers to be prepared for more dangerous enemies in the endgame.
AI can’t pick their fights, you can. Not all but most. That’s major advantage to your favor. One of the more entertaining aspects of the game is to learn what certain enemies are worth of by engaging them for the first time and getting my ass wiped out because I was unprepared. Fighting bandits will not make you prepared to fight goblins. Fighting goblins will to prepare you to fight orcs. And so on. Fact that each faction is very unique not just in their look and equipment but also fighting stile and AI is one of the strongest points of this game.
hruzaParticipantOr bring kite shields with you when you face them. Bringing some bows with you, ideally along with brothers with bow specialty helps too.
If you find bandit marksmen OP, I wonder what’s your opinion about mercenary or faction crossbowmen who come with actual armor and heavy crossbows.
Bandit marksmen have a good skill and perks, but they lack armor. They also come with the mixture of lv.1 and 2 bows and crossbows. Moreover half the bandits don’t use shields. That is major weakness which can be exploited. Withdraw your troops so that they are either out of the range of enemy missiles or form protective shield wall. Pelt his unshielded troops with missiles while your ranged units are out of the range of his. If you use crossbows, you can use tactics where you step forward to fire, step back and reload next turn, firing every second turn. At some point enemy will either charge you or bring his ranged unit forward, exposing them to your ranged. When they charge, draw them out, preferably somewhere where you can use terrain advantage for your ranged. Then counter charge. At that point they are usually stretched out and can be dealt piecemeal. Send one or two brothers with shields around the flanks to threaten his ranged unit if he still have some and situation permits.
Also utilize bushes for hiding your ranged inside. If they can’t see you, they can’t hit you. Another thing to look for is terrain protection given by tings like trees or rocks. If you place your ranged next to it, it will provide cower protection from certain angles while allowing you to shoot in there. It does come with blind angle but it’s protective radius is much wider -basically full 180 degrees.
Another thing is that AI is reluctant to shoot at targets which are engaged and obscured by AI own troops. So once you charge, make sure you close distance fast.
You shouldn’t underestimate ranged defense, both stat wise and perk wise. This is easy to omit because many factions in game does not utilize ranged. Then when you come against force which use lot of ranged, like goblins, you are for a rude awakening.
And the last tip related to enemy crossbows. Crossbows and other armor penetrating weapons are reason why you shouldn’t underestimate health stat thinking thick armor will do. Crossbow have damage of 40-60, of which 20-30 ignores armor. This means that it can basically two shot your brother if you did not invest in his health stat. If it hits head, it can one shot brother with health under 45. Heavy crossbow is even more dangerous.
Also remember, everything which you think is OP about bandit marksmen is true for your own ranged units too, if you bothered to develop them decently. Even more so since you can use better equipment. So it’s fair.
hruzaParticipantThere is no penalty for not getting a balanced diet. You cannot really survive on only grain everyday, but the game doesn’t care. Managing the diet of your company is not the focus of the game.
Heh, just got event: “Your purchases of diverse foods has the men gleefully chowing down and feeling good about life” -all brothers have “in good spirit” morale. I ques there is some event for having monotonous food too with some negative consequences.
hruzaParticipantI just have serialized, that names of the recruits sometimes reflect on their traits. I have noticed it when I have recruited poacher with “the slow” in name, without thinking too much about it and he turned out to have trait which gives -10 initiative. Then I came across miner with “the brave” in the name and I thought, might it have something to do with his resolve? Sure enough he had trait with bonus resolve on him.
hruzaParticipantHiring price depends on level and equipment. Sometimes recruits come with weapons in their inventory. As an example: A hunter that costs ~1.5k at level 1 will have a Boar Spear in his inventory.
Yes, cost reflects equipment. However I am talking about cases when equipment is the same or nearly the same, yet there is significant difference in the price. In the same settlement.
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