Topic: A Nimble Nerf

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  • #4611
    Avatar photoNewAgeOfPower

    Because, frankly speaking, 95% Dodge chance all the time is probably unintentional.

    Straight up, a 95% or even higher dodge chance (A master vs a peasant, for example) is reasonable. But that’s when the master has some room to work with.

    As such, I propose the following change to the Nimble Skill.

    Nimble with all 6 hexes empty = 100% Nimble bonus (current bonus)

    For each hex next to you that has an object or character on it, or is otherwise occupied, -15 Defense Penalty from Nimble bonus, reduced by 15% of your Melee skill, but Malus cannot exceed Nimble bonus.

    Nimble Bonus - [(Defense Penalty - 15% Melee Skill) * Surrounded Factor]

    So, lets say [hypothetically] we have a character, Albert, with 20 Nimble bonus, 50 Melee has 3 enemies and a tree trunk in his immediate 6 hexes. He has a Surround Mitigation of 7.5 (15% of his Melee Skill), and a Surround Factor of 4.

    Albert would nominally suffer a Nimble Penalty of -30, but since his Nimble Bonus is only 20, the penalty is also capped at -20 (thus, his total change in Defense is 0), cancelling out his Nimble skill.

    Now, imagine we have another character, Kenobi, with 40 Nimble Bonus and 80 Melee Skill, surrounded by 3 opponents and 2 other hexes are occupied by his allies. His Surround Factor is 5, but since he is so good with his spear (or sword, or mace, or…) his Surround Mitigation is an amazing 12!

    40 - [(15 - 12) * 5)]

    As a result, Mr. Kenobi is penalized 15 Defense, which is significant, but he still gains a reduced Nimble Bonus of +25 Defense, allowing him to dodge most incoming attacks (but probably not all of them!)

    Avatar photoGOD

    You’re talking about a nerf meant for the defensive Swordmaster build, right? That’s the one that benefits the most from Nimble because of its high defence skill. I’d wait with suggesting a nerf at least until after the event system gets put in, since the devs said that events related to the age of the Swordmaster will get included.

    As for the nerf itself, it feels weird to have a perk that enhances your melee defence be hampered when you’re in melee range. Contradictory. You’d also make it relatively less attractive for characters with lower stats, reducing its usage in general, and make it mostly of interest to those who have high stats to build on. That doesn’t seem like a good idea.

    Avatar photoRap

    That’s an interesting approach. However, we’d like to wait with balancing changes for the Nimble perk until we have established ranged enemies as more of a threat in the game. The main issue with the Nimble perk is the very specialized swordmaster build currently that, while nearly untouchable in melee, would be relatively helpless against ranged enemies or enemies that may be able to switch to secondary ranged weapons at will, like javelins.

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    Avatar photoManaSeed

    Let’s take a look at the relationship between melee skill and melee defense.

    Brother A: I know how to attack so I know where you’re going to attack. Try me.
    Brother B: ….. man, I don’t like violence at all. Can we hit the arcade center instead?
    Brother A: I said do it! You’re only good at guarding so your sissy attack won’t hurt me!

    *sound effect of fountain*

    Brother A: W-Why aren’t you using your usual move!?
    Brother B: Sorry bro. I know where should a person guards, so I decided to attack another place. I’m really sorry! I got hotheaded when you mentioned sissy…

    There can be connection between these two stats, depends how you look at it. But it’s likely most players are not going to expect that their melee skill play a part in melee defense too. If the players felt they’re forced to raise both melee and melee defense stat together, they might ask to merge these stats together.

    Since empty tiles facilitate a Nimble user to dodge an attack, he must be tiling his body or stretching his torso out of the current tile. Would that trigger ZoC (Zone of Control)?

    To be precise, would that trigger ZoC when you’re facing two enemies? One enemy attacks you, while another strike you the moment you leave the current tile partially. An enemy can attack you with ZoC 4 times in a round, he’s definitely fast enough to do that.

    O|¯|_ Sheet, I actually like every part of the first post, including the tone. And surround factor has crossed my mind too. How come I end up as bad guy here?

    Avatar photoSky

    I’m for more stat based skills but not in a salat way. To bind contradictory stats in one equasion is wrong. The core idea is good, but how about this…

    Do not think this is the correct way of nerfing the skill. I do understand why you chose this approach but I feel like it is not represented in the game any way, your character does not change position when successfully evading an attack, he does not wander around the 6 hex radius, he does not use it at all. To be fair while it is much aeasier to evade away you still can evade in confined space to a degree, humans are not trees and can move their parts independently. Usually that is.

    Your surrounded factor comes from the character not being able to evade in that direction while it sould be more like it is harder to constantly focus on more than one target and harder to evade attacks from more sources. Instead of counting the occupied hexes it should be simply decreased from amount of surrounding enemies. Should not be cancelled out at all but reduced perhaps down to 20% maximum where every enemy after the first comes with a reduction. This way it will result in, as you wanted, a more cautious play with the dancer removing almost all benefits surrounded. Making it more like a duelist skill. And it will not render the skill less attractive or this nerf overpowered with ranged enemies or events. It will remain the same usability wise from now on to the release.

    Same goes for the defense penalty reduction via the characters attack skill. While in theory it is good, in game this should not transfer. These are absolutely different skills that have their own purpose and have nothing in common. A characters defense should not be effected by his attack at all, it will open up too many possibilities of exploatation otherwise. And render these stats less valid in the end. It would also open up a door when the same arguments could be used to any skill weapon or stat binding other non connected stats to them.

    How come I end up as bad guy here?

    Not anymore.

    Avatar photoManaSeed

    While we’re at it, I think I should mention something which has been bugging me after I tried the Nimble perk. Alright, quiz time.

    Which of the following is more agile and has better chance to dodge an attack? (dodging, not surviving)
    A) a brother wearing heaviest armor without equipping shield
    B) a naked brother with a shield

          Don’t block, evade!
                         - Nimble

    Avatar photoSky

    c) The more agile/experienced/ready/anticipating/trained one.

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