Meeky

[Meeky]

Cavalry would be a good way to hunt down goblins and the like. I forget if the dev team already made a statement about horses, but I’d enjoy having them as well. The question is: what would their drawbacks be?

I’d assume they’d “turn” slower and wouldn’t move very quickly at all in forests and swamps. They’d probably have even more reduced defense than usual in those places?

Would there be weapon limitations when riding them? I assume the devs wouldn’t want the player using horse archers or horsemen wielding billhooks and claymores.

[Meeky]

So, having fought the goblins several more times recently on a new save, I want to add a few more thoughts concerning them:

1) Early game, when you’re only going up against small bands of 5-8 goblins? They’re not that rough. I had no real problems fighting them at that point in the game. Indeed, I purposely hunted them down to get access to those pikes of theirs. They’re not bad early game weapons, and I like them with Quick Hands because you can take two steps forward, swap to a Jagged Pike and then stab someone two tiles away.

2) Mid-game is when these little green bastards get mean. Goblins that appear as “Even” or “Challenging” to you are almost always a bad idea to fight. 20+ goblins vs. 12 mid-level (5-8) brothers means you’re probably going to lose a few brothers. I think I’d make their global map difficulty seem a little harder than it is presently. Presently, it seems misleading.

3) Once you get past the mid levels and start rocking level 11 archers and so forth, they’re easy to fight again, moreso even than orcs because you can send the whole pack of gobbers scattering within 1-2 rounds of arrow volleys. The only danger they pose is if they manage to accidentally shoot your archers in the back row. Maybe this is good incentive to level Initiative on your archers? I normally don’t touch that stat, but I’m thinking about trying that out.

4) Finally, goblin wolfriders never pose a real threat. I love killing those guys. It’s easy XP. I think they’d be more challenging if paired with Orc Warriors and supported with Goblin Ambushers and a Shaman. That would be a mean fight.

[Meeky]

I like this idea, actually. Maybe it’s a low %chance, but it’d be a nice, simple reward.

[Meeky]

Rather than have them add new factions / races immediately, I’d love to see them expand on what they have first (which they plan to do, IIRC). But if they do eventually add more races, I want them to be more along the lines of what we see already.

Ghouls, werewolves, orcs, goblins, vampires, necromancers… This is a world where if there’s something magical or inhuman, it’s evil. I think that gives the setting a flavor that is really, really neat. Any monster they add should fit that theme.

Someone earlier mentioned ogres. Not a bad start. Sure, ogres are “typical,” but so are orcs and goblins, yet they’ve both been given such character. Why not use ogres?

What about trolls? Except the trolls could be themed around Viking mythology. Hell, what if Grendel was used as the basis for trolls? A creature that lurks in the swamps, sneaks into towns, rips apart the inhabitants and eats them, literally eats them? Both furred and ape-like, tall and gangly and deadly? I’d dig that, and we already have the clearly Viking-based Raider background in the game.

The thing is, you can take these sort of races – “cookie cutter” races as you call them – and turn them into something great, just as the orcs and goblins have been given a broad brush of color that fits the setting.

Hell, I could even imagine a crazy “Druid” type opponent working for the Beast faction. Of course, they’re evil and they want you dead; they’ve let themselves go TOO wild; but using Druid-style powers as horror elements working alongside werewolves, giant snakes, horned bears and things like that would make for an utterly awesome touch to the game. Again, none of that is anything “new” or “uninvented” or whatever you want to say. It’s just an old trope reexamined and re-imagined.

[Meeky]

Okay, goblins are tough, but they’re not THAT bad. They’re a danger in the early game, sure, and you can lose some guys to them in the late game if you’re really unlucky, but you generally shouldn’t have any trouble defeating them if you can make it to the late game.

I’ll be assuming in this post, however, that you’re fighting them in the early game.

Goblins have a high defense, sure – but their HP is horrible. A stray breeze knocks them dead. They also don’t deal very much damage save for the Overseers, and the wolf-riders are honestly a laughable threat. Goblin melee damage is awful.

The main dangers when fighting goblins are:

1) The archers, and…
2) The shamans.

Given that, you should equip yourself differently when going up against Goblins. There are a few things you can do to increase your chances of winning.

First: Get Kite Shields or Feral Shields; those will help you deal with their ranged attacks. Don’t worry about wasting your movement points putting up a shield wall, though; chances are you’ll need those movement points.

Second: When you start the battle, count how many archers they have. If they’re got a lot of them, they’re going to be your priority to kill… and the best way to do so is to back up. I know that sounds weird, but that forces the archers to step forward to shoot at you, and it lets you reposition and find better vantage points from which to fight. Indeed, doing this seems to make the pikemen lurk along the sides or even behind the archers, making it easier for you to rush forward and deal with them (or to rush forward and release the hounds).

Third: Speaking of releasing the hounds, dogs are great. 2-3 cheap dogs released at a line of exposed archers will keep them from firing arrows for a turn or two, and should give you time to engage yourself. Is it costly? A little. I’d argue it’s worth it.

Fourth: Your biggest problem arises when there’s a shaman in their ranks. That shaman can immobilize several guys at once, so if you fight one, stay spread out. Keep a loose formation until you can engage.

And finally: If you lose a battle where you have 30 guys vs. their 6 and you lose, either the RNG hates you or you really need to rethink how you play this game.

Goblins aren’t unstoppable. They’re rough, and they force you to play the game differently than you might play against other enemies. Indeed, whenever we can finally have more than 12 guys in our army (I assume we’ll eventually have reserves), I’m probably going to make a few Anti-Goblin tanks with high ranged defense and kite shields. Until then, you just need to fight them carefully, use dogs as distractions, or else throw human meatshields you don’t care about forward as bait. Step back, let them expose their archers, and then go for the kill.

They’re way easier for me to fight than an army of Vampires, Fallen Heroes and Necromancers, I’ll tell you that.

[Meeky]

SpiritofTheWolfx wrote:

What you have to remember. You are mercenaries. Soldiers see you as bandits, but you are soldiers for hire. It makes no sense why a mercenary company would start to randomly raid and pillage a town, unless another kingdom is paying you to.

Not necessarily. While I agree that mercenaries in THIS GAME shouldn’t just go around raiding and pillaging, it did happen in history.

Here’s a piece about a couple real-world mercenary companies. First, concerning the Catalan Grand Company…

“First organized in 1302 by the adventurer Roger de Flor, the Catalan Grand Company was primarily composed of rugged Spanish veterans of the War of the Sicilian Vespers in Italy. Left unemployed at the conflict’s end, De Flor and his mercenaries contracted themselves to the Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II, who brought them to the Eastern Mediterranean to fight off invading Ottoman Turks. The 6,500-strong Catalans succeeded in sweeping the Turks away from Constantinople, but their penchant for wanton sacking and looting also drew the ire of the Byzantines. In 1305, De Flor and some 1,300 of his men were ambushed and killed by another group of mercenaries in the Emperor’s employ.

Rather than disband, the surviving Catalans embarked on one of the bloodiest and most bewildering adventures in medieval military history. Following an abortive attempt to establish an outlaw state in Gallipoli, they marched to Greece and found work as muscle for the Duke of Athens. But when a dispute arose over back pay, the Catalans once again went to war with a former employer. After crushing the Greek armies and killing the Duke at 1311’s Battle of Kephissos, they found themselves the de facto lords of the Duchy of Athens. Amazingly, the mercenaries managed to consolidate their power and rule over large swaths of Greece for more than 75 years until an army from Florence finally defeated them in battle. The remnants of the Catalan Grand Company disbanded shortly thereafter.”

And then there’s the White Company:

“The White Company was one of the most infamous of the so-called “free companies”—bands of for-profit soldiers who conducted the lion’s share of warfare in 14th century Italy. The unit first rose to prominence in the 1360s before falling under the command of Sir John Hawkwood, an Englishman who had been knighted for his service in the Hundred Years’ War. With Hawkwood at the helm, the White Company became known as one of the most elite mercenary armies in Italy. Its troops—a cultural hodgepodge of English, German, Breton and Hungarian adventurers—were renowned for their skill with the longbow and the lance, and they terrified opponents with their lighting-quick surprise attacks and willingness to do battle during harsh weather or even at night.

In an era when Italy was splintered between warring city-states and medieval lords, the men of the White Company made a killing auctioning their services off to the highest bidder. Between 1363 and 1388, they fought both for and against the Pope, the city of Milan and the city of Florence, but they were rarely out of the field even during times of peace. In fact, when unemployed, the adventurers often kept their coffers full by launching raids on nearby villages and towns.”

All that said, I don’t think we should go around raiding and pillaging in this game. I think the Devs made it clear they don’t want that. But there IS some historical basis for mercenaries basically acting as bandits, raiders and pillagers in their free time.

Source: http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/6-legendary-mercenary-armies-from-history

[Meeky]

I have a few favorites. The two-handed sword is definitely one of them for the reasons Sky said; its array of attacks is varied enough to keep the game interesting and encourage tactical placement of that big guy. Also, the Man Splitter (orcish greataxe variant) is just godawfully amazing to use. Sure, it costs more fatigue, but when you can potentially 1-shot an Orc Warrior…

The military cleaver and warhammer are both really, really impressive weapons, too. I like having a lot of my characters carry both if possible; punch through the enemy’s armor, Quick Hands to the cleaver, and then hack that head off.

[Meeky]

Let me reiterate that dissenting opinions are GOOD and create discussion. So, don’t stop having dissenting opinions; provide them when you feel they need to be provided.

Concerning swords dealing piercing damage: I certainly wouldn’t be averse to seeing that for some, not all, swords. Half-swording and such was definitely a thing; most swords were designed to pierce as well as slash; but to me, simplicity of game mechanics means you should have 2 abilities on a one-handed weapon, and having piercing on most swords’ normal attacks would feel odd.

I think the shortsword should DEFINITELY have a thrusting sort of main attack since it looks roughly around the size of a gladius or the like, something made for thrusting more than slashing. Not sure if the arming sword and noble sword should, since their “main” attack mode is slashing – but I wouldn’t be averse to some partial piercing on their attacks. The falchion (IIRC) is a slashing weapon and should remain as such.

I could definitely see small tweaks like this being made to fine-tune the weapon/armor system, but yeah: huge overhauls of the whole system aren’t a good thing at this stage of development.

[Meeky]

GOD wrote:

That guy’s pretty good, though he probably wouldn’t be able to do that in a real fight. You really want to shoot them BEFORE they get that close.

Precisely my problem with people bringing him up in conversations about archers. He also makes a lot of false claims in his recent videos, etc. He’s good, but there’s a lot of reasons I dislike it when people that praise him like some sort of legend.

So when I threaten to beat someone with chicken, it be serious, yo.

And yeah, on heavy armor’s mobility: it’s generally very, very mobile. The problem is that continuously using it on foot can and will wear you out, which I believe is what the fatigue system is meant to represent.

[Meeky]

Sky wrote:

A rubber chicken?

No, a for real life feathery chicken that clucks and lays eggs. Also, poops.

[Meeky]

I’m certainly not insulted, and I think you’ve got the right idea: be honest about your opinions so as to make a better game. I just happen to disagree with some of them.

Yes, the formula for kinetic energy involves speed. Strength factors into speed. A big, strong orc that has been bred and trained for war will know where to strike and how to strike and also will strike very hard and very fast. Ergo: lots of momentum, lots of kinetic energy, and all that energy applied in what is probably a bad spot to be hit. That’s my assumption when I face off against orcs, but then we only ever see their war camps.

Gabbagundam wrote:

Also Turn based combat may be abstract to some degree but not in this game, all regular attacks are either body or head blows depending the circumstances, meaning that our carecters are actually braindead idiots attacking the most protected areas of their opponents bodys.

…and they do that because combat is an abstraction to some degree. It’s a simplification of real-world combat. The “body” represents the entirety of the enemy that isn’t the head; the “head” represents the head and probably the neck region as well. There are, after all, helmets that give you additional armor by providing padding to the neck and the face. Etc.

Essentially, you’re critiquing an abstraction. It’s fine that you want it to be more realistic, but I’m of the opinion that it might get in the way of things.

Now, if you want to tackle realism, I’d point to the Perfect Focus perk. I’ve got an archer that sometimes shoots 12 arrows in the time span it takes a normal archer to shoot 2, each of those arrows doing as much damage as the two shots the other guy makes, if not more. Pretty unrealistic. (And if someone says “Lars Anderson” I will slap you with a chicken. Yes, I will bring a chicken to your actual house and beat you over the head with it.)

[Meeky]

One thing I’d like to chime in:

Combat in turn-based games is a bit of an abstraction. You see one hit (one skill use), but it could well be representative of multiple swings and such. I’m not sure if that applies to Battle Brothers, but a lot of other turn-based RPG games work along these lines.

Also, depending on who is swinging the weapon, it IS feasible for armor to be veritably useless. For instance, if you’ve got someone charging across the battlefield wearing chainmail at a guy wielding a pike, yeah: that pike can probably just stab right through those links. Orcish warrior hefting a massive axe with a lot of momentum behind it? Yeah, probably going to hurt; probably going to crush a knight’s breastplate into his chest and cave his ribs in even if it doesn’t BREAK the armor.

I think the armor system works. It’s realistic enough. You won’t get a perfect armor system without making the game too complicated, IMO. I can go into detail as to what I mean, but I’ll only do so if requested.

About the map…

I can agree that the map needs more work in general. I think it will be receiving a lot of attention, and I’ve heard word from the devs in their posts that there will be easier ways to hunt down camps that spawn enemies. This may be a reference to whatever NPC is increasing vision range, but I hope it’s going to include some sort of basic tracking system or perhaps some signs of movement in the woods via birds flying out of the trees or something. I also believe more adventure sites and the like will be added? And the Steam forums has a post from a developer saying that they’ll have churches eventually, so there’s going to be some variation in what’s in the world.

[Meeky]

I honestly don’t think even the logo would be necessary since there will be a lot of logos. Besides, the lion historically represents bravery; and what are Confident soldiers if not brave?

I’d be happy with either result though. But the primary color is most important.

[Meeky]

The little flags that pop up with Confident morale have been brought up before, I know. I was thinking: instead of designing perfect replicas of whatever flag the player has, why not just make different primary colors?

Example: let’s say that I’m playing a company whose primary color is green. Instead of having a blue flag, it’s green. The gold lion remains, no matter what my company standard has on it. That’s it.

Would that be doable or still a lot of work?

[Meeky]

For my main game, the Lucky Laggards…

Early game: Bought a few guys I wanted to keep, but also got some throwaways. Used throwaways to distract the enemy, kept others alive. Fought bandits mostly, kept the roads clear of their camps. My map had next to no undead at the start, so instead I tackled orc youngs after that.

When money was tight I’d take delivery jobs and caravan escort quests. My best money, however, came from raiding bandit hideouts and camps, so that’s what I did. I did my best to avoid forest battles and instead fought on the plains whenever possible; it’s much easier to take out bandits when they’re charging at your shield wall with archers behind it.

Orc warriors remained a big “no please no” opponent, and I wound up losing some guys to a fight with them when I tried to save a village.

Also, I trained 4 archers as soon as possible and made them respectable. They were hugely important for fighting bandits and orcs. I was lucky enough to get a Wildman early on too; his high fatigue made him a natural choice for a two-handed warrior. I forced him into heavy armor, slapped a greatsword into his hands and never looked back. Walter the Wildman has been my highest damage dealing character since.

Mid game: Had lots of pretty tough guys and a small body count for the throwaways. By now I was able to buy the REALLY good guys (Weaponmasters, Hedge Knights, etc.), so I did, though I couldn’t hire them all at once. Trained them on bandits again, then went tackled orcs and orcs and orcs and orcs and orcs. Still no undead around, really.

Late game: Now I can fight orc warriors with no real problem. My 4 archers from before are ridiculously useful at this stage; with Berserk and -33% fatigue on kill and the ability to fire all day long until they lose fatigue, well… these guys are a real pain train, and orcs with their melee focused armies can’t really do much. It’s easy for me to train the Weapon Masters and such that I picked up now; I weaken things with a hail of arrows, then I finish them off. It’s a great way to hit level 11 on everyone.

At this point I started replacing characters that I didn’t really want (my miner and my shepherd, for instance) with actually useful backgrounds. Again: Weapon Masters, Retired Soldiers, Hedge Knights, Adventurous Nobles… You name it. A couple of these guys die during training missions, but those that survive reach level 11 pretty quickly since I can tackle REALLY tough fights without much of a sweat. My army is effectively complete.

Presently: Sitting on 232 days worth of pay (61k gold), 202 days worth of food, 605 tools, 149 ammo, 1947 medical supplies. Half my inventory is made of identical equipment I can swap to in case my other equipment gets badly damaged and I need to throw myself into a fight. I’ve started new games since then. I’m looking at coming back to this main game later after a few updates, but I feel like I’ve “won.” It’s day 82 and there’s not much more progression to be had. I’ve thrown my armies at enough undead dungeons (they finally started spawning) to get a feel for the challenge they presented. Sadly, there haven’t been any werewolves for me to fight yet.

What I’ll do in later games: Use throwaways still, but I’ll get 12 guys ASAP rather than waiting to build up to that point. More bodies on the field is a huge advantage. Replacing guys with bad stats was the right decision to make, and I’ll be sorely tempted to do that toward the midgame rather than late game.

For my army composition, I’m thinking 4 archers, 2-3 two-handed weapon fighters, 2 captains and 3-4 “tanks” of some kind may be the way to go. I’ll definitely be using Weaponmasters again; they’re just amazing at holding the line against orcs with an einhander build. Two captains is good, by the way, because you get both Inspiring Presence and Rally the Troops, two must-have abilities that affect the whole team. Plus, it means you can fight on two fronts without either front having a low resolve. Not bad.

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