Topic: Heavy armour, Close helmet and retreat issues

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  • 8. May 2015 at 10:00 #3353
    Avatar photoBuce
    Participant

    I would decrease fatigue value in armour especially the heaviest one. 22 or even more fatigue cost for armour is to many, it’s not realistic at all that you have to have very experienced warrior to wear heavy armour. Heavy armour should not only decrease your stamina but it should also decrease your movement (move AP cost +1) and defence (-5% to -10%). Full plate armour provide less fatigue than full chainmail because of point of balance (weight is spread all over your body, in chainmail most of the weight is on your shoulders) but it decreases your movement (in full plate it’s harder to dodge, run). I know that for now there is no plate armour in game but there are some scale armours (it is somewhere between chainmail and plate armour).

    Helmets with limited vision should also decrease defence (2-3% per decreased vision point). In early medieval close helmet was only use from horseback (especially with lance), in late medieval only with full armour. Close helmet should provide a lot more armour rating than now but it should give a lot more fatigue (hard to breath) and should decrease defence (from lower vision).

    Another issue that i don’t like is retreating mechanic. It should be more realistic, your mercenaries should retreat only when they are next to end of map and only if there are no enemy close to them. Retreating should be treated for any battle brother separately. In this case you should sacrifice few of your battle brothers to give opportunity to run away for other brothers. It is more heroic and realistic than now.

    8. May 2015 at 10:16 #3357
    Avatar photoRap
    Keymaster
    Buce wrote:

    Another issue that i don’t like is retreating mechanic. It should be more realistic, your mercenaries should retreat only when they are next to end of map and only if there are no enemy close to them. Retreating should be treated for any battle brother separately. In this case you should sacrifice few of your battle brothers to give opportunity to run away for other brothers. It is more heroic and realistic than now.

    That’s the way it works already. Move your guys to the edge of the map and hit retreat – everyone on the edge will safely do so. Anyone not on the edge of the map has a high chance of not making it out alive.

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    8. May 2015 at 10:26 #3361
    Avatar photoBuce
    Participant

    Thanks Rap for this hint, I didn’t notice that, maybe because I rarely want to retreat (kamikaze style :))

    8. May 2015 at 11:01 #3369
    Avatar photoSky
    Participant

    The retreat mechanic allows to retreat only the people on the very edge, unfortunately even being few tiles away is a 50/50 chance. Not to mention that if you join an npc battle and retreat as soon as you join (starting in a corner far from any npc) you still lose half of the men. Not saying it is bad but it is definitely not intuitive and maybe should have some marked zone telling the player where the safe retreat is. Even if the zone only appears when the retreat button was pressed and the text about the safe retreat being on the edge appears.

    About the heavy armors helms and such, please do remember this is a light fantasy game and not everything from real life benefits the gameplay. The fatugue reduction made by the armors and helms is significant and you sure need a high level warrior or a medium one with good traits to use them. You do not need to have heavy armor, it is purely by choise. You can make light armored fast moving sellswords like in the “one man challenge” picture. They are valid and useful, it only depends on your playstyle. Rushing heavy armor is not the best option though, you should keep a balance of fatigue to be able to fight at all. There are a lot of perks that help you with heavy armor in utility tree tier2. And still it is possible with right traits and perks to make a heavy armored relative high fatigue member.

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    8. May 2015 at 11:27 #3375
    Avatar photoNewAgeOfPower
    Participant

    Currently, wearing anything heavier than Mail requires you take either Brawler or have a very high fatigue merc (Strong, Lumberjack, Hedge Knight, Iron Lungs)

    And wearing plate requires you have both.

    In reality, it took years of training for a man to be able to fight well in plate, and this is reflected in game.

    My suggestions:
    A Nimble Nerf
    Student Buff
    Quest Stacking, Increased Rewards
    Quick Hands Rework Thanks, Dev Team!

    8. May 2015 at 12:01 #3378
    Avatar photoBuce
    Participant
    Sky wrote:

    About the heavy armors helms and such, please do remember this is a light fantasy game and not everything from real life benefits the gameplay. The fatugue reduction made by the armors and helms is significant and you sure need a high level warrior or a medium one with good traits to use them. You do not need to have heavy armor, it is purely by choise. You can make light armored fast moving sellswords like in the “one man challenge” picture. They are valid and useful, it only depends on your playstyle. Rushing heavy armor is not the best option though, you should keep a balance of fatigue to be able to fight at all. There are a lot of perks that help you with heavy armor in utility tree tier2. And still it is possible with right traits and perks to make a heavy armored relative high fatigue member.

    I’m aware of traits and need of increasing every level stamina but I don’t think that in full version other stats will be less important than stamina. I understand that wearing heavier armor you need more stamina but cost in fatigue is to big, I’ve showed solution, that there is no need to increase stamina reduction but you can lower other statistics. It’s more realistic, and this game is not only light fantasy. Now I can’t equip my experienced brother (level 6-7) in heavy armour because he have less than 65 Stamina. Of Course I can resign from shield, helmet and get him light weapon but it’s far from realism.

    NewAgeOfPower wrote:

    Currently, wearing anything heavier than Mail requires you take either Brawler or have a very high fatigue merc (Strong, Lumberjack, Hedge Knight, Iron Lungs)

    And wearing plate requires you have both.

    In reality, it took years of training for a man to be able to fight well in plate, and this is reflected in game.

    I don’t think that every medieval knight in full plate armour have 11 level, Iron lungs, proper traits and +4 to Stamina from every level ;)
    I agree that heavy armour shoul decrease your stamina but now it’s way to much.

    8. May 2015 at 12:27 #3383
    Avatar photoSky
    Participant

    If you want realism you can look up the dark ages equipment and battle armoring. Heavy armor is not common especially with the mercenaries. Mainly used by horseman to carry all the weight, and rarely by any other attacking mobile force.

    The reason why fatigue should be heavily taxed is very simply to restrict you from making a terminator with imprenetable armor who can freely jump around endlessly. Yes at the release I do hope it will be more stat based perks making a choise to be absolutely deliberate and as now just cuz why not. You should be doing choises, and there has to be a sacrafice for heavy armor no matter what. As already mentioned, even if you have no traits or backgrounds adding to fatigue, there are traits making it quite possible to use. For example in the attached file you can see a heavy armored guy. Full Helm -20 and Heraldic Mail -42(not to mention the weight in the bags -9). Yes he is a farmhand that gives him +10, but the main reason he is able to do it are the perks Brawny (-50% fatig from armor) and Weaponmaster (-20% fatig of attack). Again having a commander unit with Rally the Troops (on use replenishes fatigue to all in range members by 50% of users resolve) makes a big difference aswell. He still has 73 free fatigue due to high lvl, but it would be only 52 if not for perk. To reach the Brawny perk you need 3 points in tier1 so a lvl 5 brother can have this perk.

    You can’t realy see on the ss but im in the middle of cycling out old members who were mostly low upkeep backgrounds with new ones, and only the low lvl new brothers are in light armor. It takes a while to be able to use even medium armors 100-200 not to mention the 200+. Before this most of my troops were in medium 180 armors with 200 helms. Now i’m trying the heavy approach with a key figure who should be boosting rally the troops every 3-4 turn to refresh the fatigue since most of my men have ~60. It’s just a test to see how it is without using defense skills like riposte spearwall shieldwall. Depending only on armor so to say while in attack only mode.

    Ps. Sorry firs file has a mistake.

    Attachments:

    1. BB_Armor-Fatigue.jpg

    2. BB_Armor-Fatigue1.jpg

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    8. May 2015 at 12:32 #3387
    Avatar photoNewAgeOfPower
    Participant

    Armor doesn’t protect you from getting stunned, or feared or other status effects. As sky said, relying purely on armor (esp for most of your men) is not the best of ideas.

    One issue I’ve found with the Brawny trait, however, is that it doesn’t seem to reduce the penalty from a helmet. Which is a huge issue, since I try to have helmets as 80% as durable a mercanary’s body armor.

    My suggestions:
    A Nimble Nerf
    Student Buff
    Quest Stacking, Increased Rewards
    Quick Hands Rework Thanks, Dev Team!

    8. May 2015 at 13:01 #3390
    Avatar photoBuce
    Participant

    I have a feeling that I’am totally misunderstood :) I’am not against fact that heavy armour should decrease Stamina, I’m against fact that it decrease it way to much. There is significant fatigue increase from mail shirt to heavier armour, I think that heavier armour should decrease your stamina but lighter than now plus it should decrease other statistics like defense and movement. Now Stamina is to important, in my solution it could be a little less important.

    8. May 2015 at 13:12 #3393
    Avatar photoSky
    Participant

    The faster you are able to equip the -> END GAME <- equipment, the faster the game ends. Especially now when there is only the most basic content. Sure now you can endlessly roam around doing things since the game has no end. But at the release there will be more content, there will be a midgame and an endgame with a logical end. Making end game equipment easily aquired and simple to use will take out the end game as a whole, make everything less satisfactory. Now you HAVE to not only find the heavy armors but get gold to buy and put in points to use. It realy doesn’t take long to get up to heavy stuff. Still enought to make you try different perks and playstyles.

    Consider this like getting the rare boss drop in an mmo or BFG in doom.

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    8. May 2015 at 17:24 #3424
    Avatar photoHoly.Death
    Participant
    Buce wrote:

    I have a feeling that I’am totally misunderstood :) I’am not against fact that heavy armour should decrease Stamina, I’m against fact that it decrease it way to much. There is significant fatigue increase from mail shirt to heavier armour, I think that heavier armour should decrease your stamina but lighter than now plus it should decrease other statistics like defense and movement. Now Stamina is to important, in my solution it could be a little less important.

    I can kind of agree that up from chainmail you universally have to invest in stamina and it feels really restrictive in regards to abilities and such, but I don’t find armor better than chainmail (plate, scale, etc.) to be a problem, because they’re supposed to over superior protection in exchange for superior fatigue issues (that can be alleviated through perks). Making plate armor weight less than chainmail would be really stupid from a design standpoint…

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