Topic: Gameflow: How you end up playing?

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  • #5073
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    With both Strong & Dexterous trait, you only have about 130 max fatigue and 55 melee skill…

    WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU, ROBERT? щ(ºДºщ)

    Do you have no shame at all, Robert?

    Why don’t you take a good look at Jaffai’s Gunnar?

    What do you mean that’s all black magic?

    People who give excuses are lame, Robert. Good bye.

    /kick Robert

    #5074
    Invictus73
    Participant


    With both Strong & Dexterous trait, you only have about 130 max fatigue and 55 melee skill…
    WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU, ROBERT? щ(ºДºщ)
    Do you have no shame at all, Robert?
    Why don’t you take a good look at Jaffai’s Gunnar?
    What do you mean that’s all black magic?
    People who give excuses are lame, Robert. Good bye.
    /kick Robert

    LOL.
    Well, I had a “Strong” Hedge Knight with only 114 Fatigue! Pathetic. Of course I really did dismiss him! ;)

    I tried your trick of getting heroes: And it is faster than the conventional way, but the last few ones are really hard to get. I succeeded in getting 2 “Fearsome” Adventurous Nobles, 2 “Strong” sellswords, 2 “Strong” Hedge Knights, 2 “Quick” Swordmasters, but only 1 out of the 4 “Quick” Hedge Knights I want so far.

    I should’ve staggered these recruitments, but your method at first was so easy that I ended up with six wholly raw recruits at one time, which made leveling really slow (I had zero DPS unit that was not a raw recruit at one point, and at that point it was basically Steel Cohort, and evey fights against roving Orc Youngs took 10 plus rounds!)

    P.S. I have a screenshot of my melee DPS (the new guy) doing 4300 in five rounds (both his weapons broke, so I could’ve done more). How do I take a screenshot when my printscreen button (among a few others) is broken? I want to show you this screen, because it shows I didn’t have a full team, half the extant team were still raw recruits, and I still did insane DPS with zero HPs lost on any unit. (So the claim that melee DPS cannot DPS big numbers without being unsafe is simply false.)

    Anyways, I am certain 1k or so per round numbers I’ve hit several times over 3 plus rounds can be replicated easily once I get my new keyboard delivered, so no sweat.

    #5076
    Invictus73
    Participant

    By the way, being able to swing a two hander five times (with “Strong” Trait characters) v. four times make a HUGE difference. You are not only getting the extra one swing, but that swing potentially leads to another.

    I don’t think I can live without “Strong” Background DPS characters any longer.

    #5077
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    >> I tried your trick of getting heroes: And it is faster than the conventional way, but the last few ones are really hard to get.
    In case you didn’t know this, F5 is quick save, F9 is quick load. But it doesn’t matter at all when you have black magic. Also, if you’re really having hard time to get what you want, feel free to ask Jaffai about advanced black magic.

    >> I ended up with six wholly raw recruits at one time, which made leveling really slow
    Anyway, how do you farm exp? I try and unveil orc lairs(with green text) without destroying them, so orc units will keep spawning. This is my most efficient method to farm exp, though I still find the exp rate low. Not sure how long, maybe 3~6 hours for me to raise lv1s to lv11s.

    >> How do I take a screenshot when my printscreen button (among a few others) is broken? I want to show you this screen

    If you want to convey your information to me, I don’t need the screenshot because it can’t talk. I need you. (well, screenshot should be handy in a different scenario such as team analysis but not in our case)

    >> 4300 in five rounds, by single brother

    Let me guess what happened before you tell me the answer. High damage per round dealt by a single brother probably has to fulfill two or three conditions:
    1) the brother steps forward alone while other brothers are at rear, so he attracts all the enemies
    2) there are a lot of enemies, but with moderate toughness which can be kill in about 2 hits. That’s why the brother can keep moving down enemies with his Perfect Berserk Flow. If enemies are all orc warriors, there’s probably no way he can keep his stamina running.
    3) you might have Rally brothers for stamina regen, this might or might not be necessary depends on situation.

    Okay, your turn. Let’s see how much I’ve guessed correctly. Try to be detailed as possible. Because I want to find out if it’s something I’ve never learned or discovered. If yes it is probably something extremely useful. Though I suspect it’s something I know. It might be the similar situation when I trained my recruits with only a few DPS brothers. But I have never achieved such high numbers with single DPS brother nor I let a single DPS brother done all the work before. So I can’t be sure at all.

    >> So the claim that melee DPS cannot DPS big numbers without being unsafe is simply false

    It depends on how speaker definite “big numbers” and “unsafe”.


    >> By the way, being able to swing a two hander five times (with “Strong” Trait characters) v. four times make a HUGE difference. You are not only getting the extra one swing, but that swing potentially leads to another.

    I don’t think I can live without “Strong” Background DPS characters any longer.

    Good. You’re doing better than what I’ve expected. At this rate, you’re going to get naked soon ( ´ ▽ ` )ノ

    #5080
    Invictus73
    Participant

    In case you didn’t know this, F5 is quick save, F9 is quick load.

    Ah, I didn’t. Thanks!

    Anyway, how do you farm exp? I try and unveil orc lairs(with green text) without destroying them, so orc units will keep spawning. This is my most efficient method to farm exp, though I still find the exp rate low. Not sure how long, maybe 3~6 hours for me to raise lv1s to lv11s.

    I need money; so I simply wait repeatedly hand in the “raze x” quests. But I prefer Orc ones over the others, as they are the quickest kills, since they come straight at you and don’t get too cute.

    If you want to convey your information to me, I don’t need the screenshot because it can’t talk. I need you. (well, screenshot should be handy in a different scenario such as team analysis but not in our case)

    You are confusing me again! :(

    Let me guess what happened before you tell me the answer. High damage per round dealt by a single brother probably has to fulfill two or three conditions:
    1) the brother steps forward alone while other brothers are at rear, so he attracts all the enemies
    2) there are a lot of enemies, but with moderate toughness which can be kill in about 2 hits. That’s why the brother can keep moving down enemies with his Perfect Berserk Flow. If enemies are all orc warriors, there’s probably no way he can keep his stamina running.
    3) you might have Rally brothers for stamina regen, this might or might not be necessary depends on situation.

    Okay, your turn. Let’s see how much I’ve guessed correctly. Try to be detailed as possible. Because I want to find out if it’s something I’ve never learned or discovered. If yes it is probably something extremely useful. Though I suspect it’s something I know. It might be the similar situation when I trained my recruits with only a few DPS brothers. But I have never achieved such high numbers with single DPS brother nor I let a single DPS brother done all the work before. So I can’t be sure at all.

    #1 was not really the case, but #2 and 3 were indeed so.

    The details, as far as I recall:

    The set up, to begin with, was unusual. There were only two DPS guys who could functionally DPS at this time, instead of my usual four: One melee and one ranged. This is because one melee was out of commission, since I had stripped him to compare his raw stats with a new recruit, and I forgot to put his equipment back on. (So I am carrying three melee DPS guys until I can find those damn Quick Hedge Knights.) The other ranged was too low level after being recently recruited. In all total, there were in fact six relatively new recruits, so most of them either advanced and Shieldwalled, or stayed back and shot x bows. To give you a good idea of damage output, except these two DPS guys, no one else did over 300! (The ranged guy did 2100, so not bad, though still only half of the melee guy.)

    Enemy wise, it was in an Orc lair, with exponentially more Orcs than usual (31, I think), since the roving bands combined with the base defenders. Most of the rovers must have been younglings or berserkers who died in one or two hits, since there were more of them than usual in an Orc base.

    So this is how it proceeded: The ranged guy opened with a nice barrage (at least 10 shots in the first round, though less than my record of 13, albeit resuscitated by the two captains, as you shall see) took a few front row berserkers and younglings down. Crossbows then partially damaged some more. Four or five melees then advanced, but all of them either Shieldwalled after contact or swung once and then Shieldwalled, since most of them were recent recruits and didn’t have the Melee Defense to protect themselves adequately without a Shieldwall. Then my melee DPS Perfect Focusued and went on a truly outrageous one or two shot streaks (mostly one shot) with his greataxe. After the two Captains blew their load(s), my ranged and melee DPS went off again, so it was a devastating carnage. Most of the kills were in the first two rounds.

    I think the unusual situation in this fight was two: First, bcause there were 31 Orcs, there was a boatload of (soft) targets even for melees, so not much time was wasted walking around. Second, because I had so few DPS guys functional, essentially two people had to kill those 31.

    Good. You’re doing better than what I’ve expected. At this rate, you’re going to get naked soon ( ´ ▽ ` )ノ

    Sorry, scale is the least clothing I am prepared to wear! ;)

    #5082
    Invictus73
    Participant

    Ok, 5500 in 4 rounds in an Orc lair with 30 plus targets. This time broke three greataxes, and was down to billhooks.

    I am not trying to artificially set up the fight for my melee guy to do max damage; this is just how it works out. For comparison, my ranged guy did 1900.

    #5085
    Invictus73
    Participant

    A few more comments on how to achieve extreme DPS:

    In addition to extremely fine tuned DPS characters who form a tiny minority in your team (since too many means damage has to be shared):

    I think it can only be done against Orcs, and only if you fight great numbers of them. To begin with, only melees can achieve such crazy numbers, as melees achieve a far higher damage rate per Fatigue (more than double, I think, assuming targets are available). And Orcs are great for melees, because they come straight at you in really predictable tactics. Further, you need to fight a lot of them, probably at least 20, because you need as many hexes filled by enemy bodies to kill, as you don’t want to lose those precious APs or Fatigue on walking to your target.

    #5086
    Invictus73
    Participant

    Final addendum (for now):

    I am also beginning to wonder if a 3 captain group is not superior to a 2 captain version for an extreme DPS set up. The reason is that with 2 captains, you still have a chance to have your perimeter units go outside of the Rally coverage, whereas this is far less likely with 3. I just stumbled on this as I started training my 2nd “Fearless” captain to replace his predecessor who is merely “Brave.”

    #5089
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    >> But I prefer Orc ones over the others, as they are the quickest kills, since they come straight at you and don’t get too cute.
    I also prefer to farm exp with Orcs because you don’t have to worry about new recruits getting killed by surprised attacks. Furthermore, there are no enemy archers to play hide and seek with you. Orcs also seem to give highest exp/battle time.

    >>
    Me: If you want to convey your information to me, I don’t need the screenshot because it can’t talk. I need you. (well, screenshot should be handy in a different scenario such as team analysis but not in our case)
    Invictus: You are confusing me again!

    I did not run a word count on your wall of text. But at first glance I approximately guess it has about 736 words. Can your screenshot tell me that much information?

    Screenshot of battle result is extremely useful for team analysis. But in our case there’s only one or two of your brothers has dealt significant damage. So the screenshot can’t tell me a lot of information about what has happened.

    >> Sorry, scale is the least clothing I am prepared to wear!
    You mean Coat of Scales (245 durability)? Strange. I thought you were wearing Lamellar Harness (210 durability). How you come you’re wearing heavier armor when you have understood more about offense’s pleasure?

    >> The ranged guy did 2100, so not bad, though still only half of the melee guy.
    If I have to give an award to either brother, I will definitely give it to ranged guy and shake his hands.

    There are multiple factors that stop ranged weapon to outshine melee weapons, in terms of DAMAGE:
    1) melee weapons have higher damage/fatigue cost
    2) melee weapons have higher damage/ammo(usability), I’ve explained this in another recent thread(your thread)
    3) Synergy between HIGH damage and battle flow ==> ranged weapons have harder time to kill enemy so it can’t make good use of battle flow compared to melee weapons. This will further increase the damage difference between melee and ranged weapons.

    So the ranged guy must have given his everything to achieve 2100.

    >> extremely fine tuned DPS characters

    Like how?

    >> I am also beginning to wonder if a 3 captain group is not superior to a 2 captain version for an extreme DPS set up.
    Firstly, how do you define extreme DPS? Either way, there are several factors you can consider.

    1) Brothers can’t stand on same tile so one captain will definitely be standing further than other captains. So in most situations, a brother can only enjoy benefit from 2 or less captain.

    2) You can enjoy more benefit from more captains if you decided to wait for enemy (by sticking close) or use more ranged attacks.

    3) Do you have that much max fatigue to enjoy full benefits from 3 captains? If your brothers have battle flow, you might not need that many captains, this also depends on how hard/fast you decided to march/advance your troops.

    4) when being surrounded at start of battle(especially in jungle where not all enemies are revealed), and you’re not patient to wait for enemy to come, you will spread your team in all directions to search for enemy. If you have only 1 captain, he can only choose 1 direction to support his buddy.

    #5111
    Invictus73
    Participant

    I did not run a word count on your wall of text. But at first glance I approximately guess it has about 736 words. Can your screenshot tell me that much information?

    Given your propensity to post screenshots with glee, I somehow thought you were more a picture guy than a “talk” guy!

    You mean Coat of Scales (245 durability)? Strange. I thought you were wearing Lamellar Harness (210 durability). How you come you’re wearing heavier armor when you have understood more about offense’s pleasure?

    Scale armor is 180 durability.

    There are multiple factors that stop ranged weapon to outshine melee weapons, in terms of DAMAGE:…

    2) melee weapons have higher damage/ammo(usability), I’ve explained this in another recent thread(your thread)

    This is the only item in your list I’d contest.

    Like how?

    Like Jaffai’s Gunnar scum saved till he gets at least 4 Fatigue and 4 Melee Skill at every level up? ;)

    Either way, there are several factors you can consider.

    1) Brothers can’t stand on same tile so one captain will definitely be standing further than other captains. So in most situations, a brother can only enjoy benefit from 2 or less captain.

    2) You can enjoy more benefit from more captains if you decided to wait for enemy (by sticking close) or use more ranged attacks.

    3) Do you have that much max fatigue to enjoy full benefits from 3 captains? If your brothers have battle flow, you might not need that many captains, this also depends on how hard/fast you decided to march/advance your troops.

    4) when being surrounded at start of battle(especially in jungle where not all enemies are revealed), and you’re not patient to wait for enemy to come, you will spread your team in all directions to search for enemy. If you have only 1 captain, he can only choose 1 direction to support his buddy.

    I got rid of the 3rd captain after all. I found that 1) in a forest battle, 2) where there are legions of opponents, an extra musclehead is worth more than than an extra brain (or voice), since the melees cannot move quickly enough to intercept everything due to all the obstructed terrain.

    #5113
    Invictus73
    Participant

    I forgot to mention:

    Now I am running with 3 level 11 melee DPS (soon to be 4) till I find 3 Quick Hedge Knights for the “workhorse” tank role. And the reduction in inidividual melee DPSers damage numbers are very noticeable, especially if 2 of them are bunched near each other. So melee DPS body count has a very low ceiling, I think.

    #5114
    Invictus73
    Participant

    Sigh, I added another DPS Hedge Knight. “Strong” and “Iron Lungs,” with very high Fatigue and Melee Skill. I couldn’t refuse.

    #5115
    Invictus73
    Participant

    Hmmm, Fearless and Drunkard Adventurous Noble. 72 Resolve.

    Do I have to take him and level him now?!

    But I already got two over 100 Resolve…

    #5679
    Jahsus
    Participant

    3 archers in mail, 2 billmen with throwing spears, 2 greatswords and the rest with shields and various weapons (carrying multiple damage types in case they need to swap out.) Pretty much smashing everything atm and I don’t have a character above level 6.

    no refunds.

    #6004
    Jaffai
    Participant

    R.I.P Gunnar :((

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