Topic: My opinion about this game

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  • #3896
    Gabbagundam
    Participant

    Well after playing for 30 hours im finally ready to give my opinion about this game. I know this game is still early access but I dont know how many of the features alredey included are not going to change so Im going to be blunt here if anyone is easilly offended “dont read any further” because Im going to be blunt.

    First the bad:

    1) The armor system: One of the worst things in this game, Its so far away from reallity its not even funny. Armor is almost worthless, Chainmail the back bone armor of most european countrys can barely survive 2 hits before breaking apart. Im no expert but Im preatty sure medival europe was not importing crappy butted chainmail from india in order to equip their troops. However its better then nothing but badly implemented, armor damage is far to high making armor a bad joke most of the time.
    One way to remedy this would be to reduce the damage done to armor by atleast 3/4, this way armor actually can make a reasonable difference. In order to counter act this weapons need some changes as well, I propose that every weapon gets armor ignoring damage(I know its possible warhammers alredy have it) ranging from 1 for daggers, 3 for swords, 4 for spears and the bilhock, 8 for axes, 10 for concussive wepons, 7 for 2-H swords and 15 for 2-H axes. This way even if armor is extreamly resistent to damage, making it posible to whittle down over time. Another way to make some wepons more usefull would be to give every wepon that has the abillity to thrust(swords and spears) the “go for the gaps” abillity only available for the daggers at the moment because only a complete retard continuasly smacks his sword against an fully armored opponent expecting to do more then slightly scartch the steel.

    2) The map: The map is boring, Uninteresting to the core and a chore to explore. I really hope the map gets some love later down the line because right now its boring. Graphicly its top but considering from a gameplay standpoint it sucks. In order to make the map more interesting it would need more towns, fortresses and interactive enviroments aside from enemys. And you should think about ading a district system where each town has its own zone of controll.

    3) The quests: The quests are repetetive, unintersting, pointless and barely fitting the theme of being a mercenary groupe. Im going to splitt the quests up in catagorys in order to talk about them.
    Travel quests:
    Go and find “insert place here”: Boring busy work without any need to exist period. The payment is crap, the direction given is very vague at best and overall a giant waste of time. One way to actually make this type of mission work is to stick to the premise of the player being an mercenary unit and not an adventurer party. Insted of some random guy asking for you to find some vague place it should be the local militia comander asking you to figure out what exactly causes the problems plaguing the town and the area surrounding it. The payment could be 300 gold, regardles of you actually finding any thing(in order to actually give someone a reason to actually waste his time doing the mission) and 1000 G for actually finding the culprits behind the attacks. After delivering the news to the militia leader there should be immediately a follow up mission in wich the guy tasks you to actually go out and raze as many of the camps you found as posiblle for about 1500 G each.
    Be my personal errend boy: Just no screw this type of mission they dont fit the theme of an actuall mercenary band at all. Insted make it a bodyguard mission in witch you have your guys protect the client from harm when he attands a secret meeting.
    protect my caravan: Only worthwile mission in this catagory decent pay and at least some chance to engage in some battels. However they are very rare at least for me thats why I would like the option to offer my sevicess to caravans alredy travelling on the map.
    Combat missions:
    Raze “insert place here”: Interesting but really rare for me at least.

    I know Im sounding like an asshole but I rather be a an asshole then a kissass pretending to not notice the most obvious flawess the game has at the moment. This game has incredible potential and I dont want to see it wasted. What im triing to do is not tobash an incomplete game but give an oppinion how it can be better.

    The good parts:

    1) The combat: Its solid and fairly deep, I hate the armor system but I can at least bear with it and enjoy the engaging pitched infantry battles. Considering the fact that the combat is the only feature properly implemented at the moment, its influence on my oppinion is huge. Thats why I consider my money well spend at this point in time.

    This game is barely decent at the moment and I now it can becme amazing in the future.

    Thanks for reading my giant post and sorry for my terrible enlisch.

    #3899
    drew1988west
    Participant

    @Gabbagundam

    Your English is be no means terrible. I think its important to bare in mind that the things you’ve identified as bad, are by-and-large still work-in-progress.

    But to share my thoughts on the matter:

    1. Weapon and Armour durability was added to maintain a demand for buy/selling armour. Its not unrealistic for armour of weapons to break, but your right it may be – in some cases – too easy to break certain items.

    2. The map is due to be expanded, new terrain types, tactical maps, events, and intractable locations – are to my knowledge all planned. But this is EA, so they will be coming – but just not yet.

    3. The quest system, I agree can be improved upon. Their is currently only three core types of quests. But this will likely be expanded once, events and story elements start to find their way into the game.

    I wouldn’t say this game is ‘barely decent’, nor would I say I’m a kiss ass. This game, for an EA title, is very good. This is EA done right, its enjoyable, and fun to play. The devs are responsive and have been very quick to fix bugs, and make minor chapters. The EA launch – to me – has been a success. The game is very, very playable and fun. Yes, their are parts that are lacking, but this isn’t a finished game, not all the features and content are in the game just yet.

    #3907
    Meeky
    Participant

    One thing I’d like to chime in:

    Combat in turn-based games is a bit of an abstraction. You see one hit (one skill use), but it could well be representative of multiple swings and such. I’m not sure if that applies to Battle Brothers, but a lot of other turn-based RPG games work along these lines.

    Also, depending on who is swinging the weapon, it IS feasible for armor to be veritably useless. For instance, if you’ve got someone charging across the battlefield wearing chainmail at a guy wielding a pike, yeah: that pike can probably just stab right through those links. Orcish warrior hefting a massive axe with a lot of momentum behind it? Yeah, probably going to hurt; probably going to crush a knight’s breastplate into his chest and cave his ribs in even if it doesn’t BREAK the armor.

    I think the armor system works. It’s realistic enough. You won’t get a perfect armor system without making the game too complicated, IMO. I can go into detail as to what I mean, but I’ll only do so if requested.

    About the map…

    I can agree that the map needs more work in general. I think it will be receiving a lot of attention, and I’ve heard word from the devs in their posts that there will be easier ways to hunt down camps that spawn enemies. This may be a reference to whatever NPC is increasing vision range, but I hope it’s going to include some sort of basic tracking system or perhaps some signs of movement in the woods via birds flying out of the trees or something. I also believe more adventure sites and the like will be added? And the Steam forums has a post from a developer saying that they’ll have churches eventually, so there’s going to be some variation in what’s in the world.

    #3908
    Gabbagundam
    Participant

    First of all I dont want to insult anyone, the kiss ass part was only ment for me. I dont want to hype a game that needs severe improvements in a lot of areas thats all. Im enyojing the game and everyone else is free to enjoy it as well. However ignoring problems just because a game is EA is wrong, how are you expecting developers to actually improve major parts of the game if you are unwilling to mention the bad things about it. Constructive ctriticism is always better, then not speaking up because it may improve later down the line if we are lucky.

    Now regarding armor, its true that armor and weapons degrade with use but its also important to note that they dont turn badly this fast. Armor can withstand severe punishment without much problem, chainmail for example has near perfect resistens against slasching weapons and degrades really slow when attacked by them. The only weapon capable of damaging chainmail to any severe extent I know of are 2-H axe like weapons, and even they would mostly cut through 1 or 2 rings and dent 4 more and thats it. They would however kill or maime you through with the sheer force of their blow, wich is why I mentioned armor negating damage in the first place.
    Now looking at Orks, first of they are humanoid and very well build, however we can only speculate about their real strength and even then strengh alone is worthless in a fight technic is far more important. I am however going to asume that an average warrior Orc would be as strong if not stronger then a top human body builder. The same aplies to weight, it dosent matter how heavy a weapon is it only matters how fast it is. The formula for kinetic energy is E= 1/2M*V^2.
    And regarding the dented chestplate argument, a hardend chestplate properly angled would either deflect a cutting weapon compleatly or bend mildly at best because a plate distributes force very evenly across its surface. Also Turn based combat may be abstract to some degree but not in this game, all regular attacks are either body or head blows depending the circumstances, meaning that our carecters are actually braindead idiots attacking the most protected areas of their opponents bodys. The only time they dont do it is with the “go for the gaps” abillity witch atually is the only way in wich swords and spears in reality
    can be usefull against armor at all. Thats why I want this abillity for thouse wepons.

    Once again I dont want to insult anyone, I like the game but it definetly needs a lot of work.

    #3909
    Meeky
    Participant

    I’m certainly not insulted, and I think you’ve got the right idea: be honest about your opinions so as to make a better game. I just happen to disagree with some of them.

    Yes, the formula for kinetic energy involves speed. Strength factors into speed. A big, strong orc that has been bred and trained for war will know where to strike and how to strike and also will strike very hard and very fast. Ergo: lots of momentum, lots of kinetic energy, and all that energy applied in what is probably a bad spot to be hit. That’s my assumption when I face off against orcs, but then we only ever see their war camps.

    Also Turn based combat may be abstract to some degree but not in this game, all regular attacks are either body or head blows depending the circumstances, meaning that our carecters are actually braindead idiots attacking the most protected areas of their opponents bodys.

    …and they do that because combat is an abstraction to some degree. It’s a simplification of real-world combat. The “body” represents the entirety of the enemy that isn’t the head; the “head” represents the head and probably the neck region as well. There are, after all, helmets that give you additional armor by providing padding to the neck and the face. Etc.

    Essentially, you’re critiquing an abstraction. It’s fine that you want it to be more realistic, but I’m of the opinion that it might get in the way of things.

    Now, if you want to tackle realism, I’d point to the Perfect Focus perk. I’ve got an archer that sometimes shoots 12 arrows in the time span it takes a normal archer to shoot 2, each of those arrows doing as much damage as the two shots the other guy makes, if not more. Pretty unrealistic. (And if someone says “Lars Anderson” I will slap you with a chicken. Yes, I will bring a chicken to your actual house and beat you over the head with it.)

    #3910
    Sky
    Participant

    A rubber chicken?

    #3912
    Meeky
    Participant

    A rubber chicken?

    No, a for real life feathery chicken that clucks and lays eggs. Also, poops.

    #3914
    GOD
    Participant

    Not seeing the asshole part of your critique. It’s fine to disagree with how certain parts of the game are done, as long as it doesn’t devolve into pointless mudslinging. That’s not what you’re doing, so I don’t see a problem.

    I actually rather like the armour solution, because accurately trying to simulate all the different armour types and how they’d interact with all the weapon variants would require completely reworking how the combat works. That would take a lot of effort, without adding something that is crucial to the gameplay. I see the armour system as functional abstraction that helps to streamline something that might otherwise bog down combat. Same goes for the separation between head and body hits, it streamlines aiming for body parts without the downside of the old SPECIAL system (always aim for the brain).
    If I’m also interpreting your suggestions correctly, they’d result in the fights going a lot slower and becoming more about grinding down the opposition. You’d have to redesign all the enemies to make that work, while you’d also lose the quick and lethal combat that they currently have.

    Map will get more filled in as development continues. We’re basically just seeing the free-roaming aspect, while events and further interaction hasn’t been implemented yet. One example is how they’re planning on adding footprints to the game, so that you can tell where enemies are without seeing.

    More diverse contracts are definitely planned as well. How they’ll balance the rewards will have to depend on how they’re planning to have the actual end-game scale.

    Now, if you want to tackle realism, I’d point to the Perfect Focus perk. I’ve got an archer that sometimes shoots 12 arrows in the time span it takes a normal archer to shoot 2, each of those arrows doing as much damage as the two shots the other guy makes, if not more. Pretty unrealistic. (And if someone says “Lars Anderson” I will slap you with a chicken. Yes, I will bring a chicken to your actual house and beat you over the head with it.)

    Who’s Lars Anderson?

    #3916
    drew1988west
    Participant

    Who’s Lars Anderson?

    Google it… it will make perfect sense :P :)

    #3918
    Buce
    Participant

    Armour mechanics in BB is very simple and clear, if devs want more realistic mechanics they should remodel whole weapon damage mechanics.
    Weapons should have new parameters like:
    1) weight: more weight and more impact force after hit = more bludgeoning trauma after hit and higher bonus to armour/shield damage and more fatigue
    2) point of balance: if point of balance is closer to the hilt then accuracy and defense is better and fatigue is less but impact force is lower and less bonus to armour/shield damage
    2) type of damage:
    2a) slashing: high chance for bleeding, low damage to armour
    2b) piercing: high chance for critical damage, very low damage to armour
    2c) bludgeoning: high chance for stunning, low damage to chainmail and padded leather, high damage to plate armour
    2d) hacking: mid chance for bleeding and stunning, medium damage to armour
    3) durability
    4) special structure: for example curved blade is better for slashing and worse for thrusting
    After rebuilding weapons parameters now we can change armour mechanics. First of all armour should protect percentage portion of damage.
    1) Chainmail provides very good protection against slashing, good protection against piercing, medium protection against hacking and almost no protection against bludgeoning (but most of chainmail users wears under chainmaille padded gambeson). Chainmail is heavy and has bad point of balance (all weight is on your shoulders) it should give a lot of fatigue.
    2) Padded leather provides good protection against bludgeoning, medium protection against piercing and hacking, and low protection against slashing, it’s light but heats your body so fatigued is not so low as (but still lower than chainmail)
    3) Scale armour provides good protection against slashing and bludgeoning and hacking, medium protection against piercing. It’s heavy and limits movement (lower defense)
    4) Plate armour provides very good protection against slashing, good protection against piercing and hacking, medium protection against bludgeoning. It’s heavy but the wieght is evenly distributed so fatigue is less than chainmail, but it’s limits movement alot.
    etc.
    Now we can assume how many percentage portion o damage is very good (99%), good (75%), medium (50%), low (25%). After hit mechanics check what was the type of damage and how many damage target has received, and it compares those parameters with armour type. It calculate how many damage passed through armour and how many damage damaged armour. It’s more realistic but it requires a lot of work to find proper balance.
    Lars Anderson uses lightweight bow, and that’s the speed shooting secret :)

    #3919
    GOD
    Participant

    First results I get are about a baseball player and a wrestler…

    Meeky wants to wrestle baseball players? Not my thing, but I’m not one to judge.

    #3921
    Buce
    Participant

    GOD check this out :)

    #3923
    Gabbagundam
    Participant

    When it comes to armor I tend to get really pasionate and I understand completly if they wont change their system because one player wants it that way. However this only means that once the game is finished, I just have to mod the game to suit my taste. I have done it for 2 other games before, I would have done the same for battle brothers if I had access to the data files :D

    Speed shooting is a thing but pales in comparison to actual combat archery when it comes to lethallity.

    #3924
    Gabbagundam
    Participant

    Armour mechanics in BB is very simple and clear, if devs want more realistic mechanics they should remodel whole weapon damage mechanics.
    Weapons should have new parameters like:
    1) weight: more weight and more impact force after hit = more bludgeoning trauma after hit and higher bonus to armour/shield damage and more fatigue
    2) point of balance: if point of balance is closer to the hilt then accuracy and defense is better and fatigue is less but impact force is lower and less bonus to armour/shield damage
    2) type of damage:
    2a) slashing: high chance for bleeding, low damage to armour
    2b) piercing: high chance for critical damage, very low damage to armour
    2c) bludgeoning: high chance for stunning, low damage to chainmail and padded leather, high damage to plate armour
    2d) hacking: mid chance for bleeding and stunning, medium damage to armour
    3) durability
    4) special structure: for example curved blade is better for slashing and worse for thrusting
    After rebuilding weapons parameters now we can change armour mechanics. First of all armour should protect percentage portion of damage.
    1) Chainmail provides very good protection against slashing, good protection against piercing, medium protection against hacking and almost no protection against bludgeoning (but most of chainmail users wears under chainmaille padded gambeson). Chainmail is heavy and has bad point of balance (all weight is on your shoulders) it should give a lot of fatigue.
    2) Padded leather provides good protection against bludgeoning, medium protection against piercing and hacking, and low protection against slashing, it’s light but heats your body so fatigued is not so low as (but still lower than chainmail)
    3) Scale armour provides good protection against slashing and bludgeoning and hacking, medium protection against piercing. It’s heavy and limits movement (lower defense)
    4) Plate armour provides very good protection against slashing, good protection against piercing and hacking, medium protection against bludgeoning. It’s heavy but the wieght is evenly distributed so fatigue is less than chainmail, but it’s limits movement alot.
    etc.
    Now we can assume how many percentage portion o damage is very good (99%), good (75%), medium (50%), low (25%). After hit mechanics check what was the type of damage and how many damage target has received, and it compares those parameters with armour type. It calculate how many damage passed through armour and how many damage damaged armour. It’s more realistic but it requires a lot of work to find proper balance.

    Honestly speaking, I did exactly this for a game called battle for westnoth, it took me a week to change all the values and balance for each and every unit of every single faction but it was so worth it :D

    #3926
    drew1988west
    Participant

    GOD check this out :)

    <iframe width=”500″ height=”281″ src=”https://www.youtube.com/embed/BEG-ly9tQGk?feature=oembed&#8221; frameborder=”0″ allowfullscreen=””></iframe>

    Thats incredible….. I want archers with that amount of skill!!!

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