Topic: [suggestion] Clearly unbalanced enemies

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  • #7058
    Danubian
    Participant

    My biggest beef with the current balancing are:
    1.) Goblins
    2.) Orcs
    1.) Goblins have those archers who are EXTREMELY annoying. I mean to the level where each battle against goblins is a a.) lottery about how many of your brothers will die and b.) an extremely annoying game of chasing these annoying little bastards around the map, which just simply isnt fun. I guess you can say im a bit spoiled, but i kinda love it when im the one who can do Hit & Run tactics, when the AI is THIS good at it, it makes me mad :D I mean you can call me a noob and completely disregard me and my opinion but ill tell you this: i find goblins so annoying to fight, that i completely 100% ignore them. I dont take missions against them, i dont attack settlements with them and i dont chase their on-map groups.
    2.) Orcs. Orcs are just downright ridiculously OP. I mean seriously, in every single way. The Young Olcs, which are supposed to be the easiest ones, have brutally OP weapons (they have those swords that do 70 damage?), some of them have lots of armor, they have great movement, and i think they also do those jumps where they stun your guys. So you gave them brutal fire power, you made them tanks, you gave them throwing weapons and you gave them stun jump? All of this wouldnt be THAT bad if they didnt have the ability to inflict brutal amounts of damage, i think they have a sword (like 18 base fatigue + 5 fatigue per round?) which has a nasty tendency to chop heads? So i had fully armored brothers (130 body armor and 140 head armor) get insta head chop, at which points i just /rage quit the game.
    Then you have orc beserkers running around with 130(iirc) damage 2h axe – i saw yesterday one of those chop 2 heads with 1 swing – of course /instant rage quit
    And then to make things even more brutal you have those ridiculously stupidly armored biggest orcs (their leaders or whatever they are called) brutes that are just unstoppable and will simply push your guys around (naturally they are immune to being pushed back themselves). < note that once i encountered those on second difficulty level (challenging?) i quit the game and restarted on easiest. I think those things are so brutally OP that i would need fully equipped brothers with those 200% armor damage warhammers (2000+ gold each) to kill them, and then id take quite a lot of damage.
    I would strongly suggest splitting orcs up into a lot more types, and if you insist on having those super ridiculously OP orcs, then dont put more than a few in a group, unless they are supposed to be literally end game content (and not a battle that game suggests is a “Puny” challenge”).

    #7100
    Danubian
    Participant

    Orcs: anything bigger than young orcs is insanely OP beyond belief:
    It took ~30 Humans (patrol tower party + my 12 bros) to defeat the Orc party of 12, a mix of Berserkers, like 3 or 4 young orcs and then the rest Orc Warriors i think they are called (the ones bigger than young orcs covered in full armor).

    The orc party was labeled as “even” to me, and there is simply no way in hell i could defeat them on my own.
    The heavily armored Orcs take 3 or 4 turns to die when you surround them completely. Meanwhile some of my bros with 150 armor (body and helmets) can frequently die in 2 or 3 hits (heads fly all over the place).

    This just isnt “fun” its playing against brutal odds.

    You really need to decide what you want Orcs to be, and then make them very good at one thing. As it is they have stupidly insane OP armors (takes ages to kill with any weapons), they have excellent movement, they can do their jump and stun thing, and even the smallest orcs are usually fully armored (although not as insanely) and more importantly armed with the best Orc weapons.

    My suggestion: add more Orcish weapons. If you want Orcs to be heavily armored, then nerf their weapons. If they are both Tankers, and Damage dealers they are brutally OP.

    #7106
    Mithril
    Participant

    Goblins are simple to beat, pull them at nite when u they have a 50% less chance to hit, and wear shields, only a rare lucky shot will get you. If you don’t want to chase them down buy a couple wardogs.

    Nimble in the defense tree is the best way to handle orcs, they are the end game. Invest into mdef every level, get nimble, equip warhammers/dagger, destroy orcs with ease. Only a rare hit will get in with a decent nimble build, theres a 5% to get hit regardless of your mdef atm, but with decent armor u can survive 1 hit just fine.

    I personally go down the utility tree for the 50% less cost on armor and the morale break talent then go fowj defense tree for nimble, haven’t lost a battle brother in 3 games this route.

    #7107
    Danubian
    Participant

    I go utility for armor cost thingie, and then switch to defense to pick up that one which makes you immune to morale damage, so i can fight those damned ghost thingies.

    I put my level up points on HP, fatigue and melee offense. What do you suggest i do instead? HP, fatigue and mdef?

    Edit:

    Look at this. Im fighting the Young Orcs. Everything is going fine. Im managing to beat them. And then the bottom most Orc decides to murder my bottom most brother in 2 hits. Sure the guy is at 70% hp, but he also wears armor. Doesnt matter. Orc hits him twice and he is dead. Bam bam dead. Sorry but thats just ridiculous. Sure if i was wearing low level 20 armor, but come on…

    #7108
    Danubian
    Participant

    Also is it normal that an Orc can 1 shot kill the medium shield? (the one you buy at the castle, slightly smaller than kite shield)

    (look at the guy with green armor, he lost his shield after just one shield breaking hit)

    #7109
    Danubian
    Participant

    Look at this. A single hit from Orc berserker did 209 body armor damage and 43 HP damage.

    One of my better bros has been crippled in a single hit. One more hit and he is dead. This is just stupid. And the guy is level 8 i think, if he was level 1-5 he would have literally 0 chance.

    #7111
    Meeky
    Participant

    Berserkers hit hard but are easy to kill. They wear no armor. Focus them first if you can, because if they DO get to your frontline, it can hurt. The one in your picture is using my favorite weapon in the game, a massive two-handed axe that can reduce people to giblets. It has really high damage and high fatigue costs. It hits hard.

    Remember, berserkers are SUPPOSED to hit really hard, but they’re also really easy to kill. No armor = you sometimes only need 1-2 good hits from the right weapon to take them out. Well trained soldiers forming a spearwall can actually be really strong against them, but you’ll probably have to shift your archer lines if you use that (a few will try to circle around to attack your archers).

    Orc Warriors are only really a threat for a mid/late game army if there’s a bunch of them. The thing you have to do is reduce their morale (by killing the weaker orcs first – orc youngs and berserkers – and then finish the rest off.

    Having trouble with orc warriors? I suggest two weapons: warhammers and pikes. Warhammers are good for making a mockery of orcish armor; a few solid hits from them will reduce it to nothing. Then you can use have your other Battle Brothers engage for the kill. Pikemen in the back row will deal high damage and won’t be in melee range, so your shield-bearing dudes can dodge a few hits, soak a few hits, or have their shields broken (which is always better than having your health bar broken).

    Basically, my strategy for orcs is “kill the unarmored ones, then shred the warriors’ armor with warhammers, then murder them dead.” It works pretty well. I go in ready to lose one Battle Brothers, but that’s rare… Unless I’m actually outnumbered by the orcs. Then I’m probably gonna lose a guy or two unless I find really terrific ground to fight on. That’s to be expected in a game like this, though.

    Also is it normal that an Orc can 1 shot kill the medium shield? (the one you buy at the castle, slightly smaller than kite shield)

    That’s a heater shield. And that depends: what is the orc wielding? But yes, I’ve seen Orc Warriors and Orc Berserkers break shields really easily at times, especially berserkers carrying two-handed axes. If it was an orc warrior wielding a Fighting Axe or the orcish axe, I think it HAS happened to me before? But with round shields and feral shields. I normally don’t lost heater shields in one hit.

    Goblins are simple to beat, pull them at nite when u they have a 50% less chance to hit, and wear shields, only a rare lucky shot will get you. If you don’t want to chase them down buy a couple wardogs.

    I haven’t tried this yet, but this isn’t the first time I’ve seen this suggestion. Give it a shot.

    Nimble in the defense tree is the best way to handle orcs, they are the end game. Invest into mdef every level, get nimble, equip warhammers/dagger, destroy orcs with ease. Only a rare hit will get in with a decent nimble build, theres a 5% to get hit regardless of your mdef atm, but with decent armor u can survive 1 hit just fine.

    Nimble is a build that works for niche character backgrounds. Weapon Masters and characters that start with a high melee defense can do it. I wouldn’t suggest it for every character in your army, however.

    What I do is I use a Swordmaster (or other high starting mdef character) as a “tank” against orcs. He’ll tie up 2-4 orcs at once with no problem which helps even the odds considerably. He won’t kill any, but he’ll survive. This gives the rest of my army a chance to focus fire the other orcs before rushing over to help the Nimble fellow.

    I put my level up points on HP, fatigue and melee offense. What do you suggest i do instead? HP, fatigue and mdef?

    It really depends on the character.

    HP/Fatigue/Melee Offense is best for most characters, and all archers should be HP/Fatigue/Ranged Offense, or that’s how I build them, maybe dipping into Initiative occasionally for archers. However, you are also going to have Captains and tanks.

    I like to have an army setup that’s something like this:

    3-4 archers
    2-3 two-handed warriors
    1-2 captains
    2-4 shield warriors
    1-2 nimble tanks

    So, for instance, a typical composition will be: 3 Archers, 3 Two-Handed Warriors, 2 Captains, 3 Shield Warriors, 1 Nimble Tank.
    The Archers exist to pepper dudes with arrows lots and lots of times. I go with Perfect Focus and get the ability to refresh fatigue upon killing people from the Utility tree. Works pretty well.

    The Two-Handed Warriors ALWAYS have a hard-hitting AoE melee weapon and a reach weapon, but they often have several weapons thanks to bags and belts. Typically, I’ll have a Two-Handed Sword, either a Pike or a Billhook, a Jagged Pike (the goblin pike that doesn’t use all your AP to attack) or a Warbrand for when I need mobility, and one of those awesome two-handed orcish axes for when I just need to obliterate a dude. With Quick Hands, you can always pick the right weapon for the right situation.

    If I only have one Captain, he will have Rally, hands down. Rally is amazing. It gives your guys with Perfect Focus quicker recovery after they spend a whole turn expending their stamina. If I have two Captains, the second Captain has Inspiring Presence. I build Rally Captains with a focus on Resolve instead of fighting ability, and I build Inspiring Presence Captains like normal soldiers and don’t take the Captain perk.

    Shield Warriors are built like typical Battle Brothers because they are the MOST typical of battle brothers. They carry a shield, fatigue/HP/Melee Offense with an occasional splash of Melee Defense, and they smack dudes in the head. If they get high enough level, they finish clearing the Offense tree and then go into the Utility tree to get Quick Hands, Bags and Belts, Pathfinding, and that one ability that reduces fatigue cost.

    But then you get the Nimble Tank. This guy pumps Melee Defense at every level, and his background is usually Swordmaster. He’s sacrifices HP or Fatigue occasionally to get more Melee Offense because he needs to have a respectable chance to hit things, but his Melee Defense is ALWAYS maxed. His job is to to make a mockery of orcs once he’s max level. That’s it.

    The Nimble Tank gets the Nimble perk, which is the focus of his build. He may take other traits from the defense tree, but the most important perk is the Nimble perk. He will only use a shield before he gets Nimble, and afterward will never touch a shield again, but he can have over 100 melee defense. Yes, over 100. That means enemies will only ever have a 5% chance to hit him when fighting him in melee. If you grab the fatigue-reducing perks from the utility tree (-50% armor fatigue, less weapon attack fatigue), he’ll be in a really good spot. Again, though, Nimble comes first. Always. And again, his job is to engage enemies in melee and make them scream with frustration when they can’t kill him.

    Don’t let him fight goblins, however. They’ll make him a pretty pincushion real fast. Also note that getting a Nimble Tank to level 5, that crucial level he needs, can be really painful, especially if he’s a Swordmaster.

    This was a long post, but this is the sort of army composition I use, and it works really well for me. 1-2 Nimble Tanks = you kick orc butt. Use Spear Walls when dealing with orc berserkers and orc young; it sometimes works against orc warriors as well IIRC. Focus fire orc warriors with warhammers, then kill ’em with hard hitting pikes and such once they’re weak. Encircle for maximum damage when you can, but NOT against berserkers wielding two-handed weapons (because they’ll butcher everyone at once). Don’t use the same stat build for every Battle Brother; change it up depending on what role they serve. This should help you a lot.

    Honestly, the only foes that have given me serious trouble once my build starts rolling are goblins (in day time) and vampires (because they love to eat archers for breakfast). I might lose a guy on occasion, but by that point I can train a new guy back to max level without terribly much difficulty (because I’m fighting one-sided battles more often than before).

    #7112
    Danubian
    Participant

    -I understand the concept of glass cannons (no defense, all offense), and i have no problem with it in games.

    However the issue here is about what the balance should be. If i spend 10 hours leveling up and gearing up a brother, he should not die in 2 hits. I mean thats just stupid. If people want that kind of challenge they can use highest difficulty setting, and give them ironman on top. Im playing at the lowest difficulty level and IMO getting damaged for 209 armor and 30-40% of your HP at level 8 is stupidly OP and out of balance. The “its a berserker, it should hit hard” argument is in this IMHO ridiculous. You can make the same argument for every single example of a game feature thats imbalanced. I understand that some people want ultra hard challenge (getting killed in 2 hits) but i dont, for example.

    -That heather shield was destroyed from 1 shield breaking hit done by that orc standing beside the green armor guy, i believe it was wielding the common Orc axe. Again i find the argumentation weird. A shield is supposed to provide defense. If the enemy is capable of destroying your shield in 1 hit, then having a shield is almost utterly useless in a melee fight. Regardless of the fact whether it was destroyed by a two handed or one handed weapon. No shield should die in 1 hit. Otherwise shield and weapon as a style is out of balance compared to two handed weapon (because two handed weapon is supposed to have its damage output balanced by the fact that it wont deal damage every time because of shield defense). If you break the shield in 1 hit, then 2 handed is clearly superior. But for the record it got destroyed by the 1 handed Orc axe. And IMO thats just wrong. Wrecking a ~150 gold piece of equipment just like that. Definition of imbalanced.

    #7113
    Meeky
    Participant

    The thing about Battle Brothers is you need to go into the game knowing you’re going to lose some guys during play, and I think it’ll be easier to do that once the devs expand our company size.

    Once you can have more than 12 guys in your army and can choose who will fight on the battlefield that day, it should be considerably easier to have battle brothers that are your sacrificial lambs, or battle brothers that are specialized at fighting orcs – etc. But as the game is now, I never go into a fight thinking “I’m going to come out clean,” because all it takes is a brief spurt of bad luck or bad positioning to ruin your day… and that’s kind of the point.

    I understand the concept of glass cannons (no defense, all offense), and i have no problem with it in games.

    However the issue here is about what the balance should be.

    It is about that. And the way that berserkers are balanced is they’re easy to kill if you snipe the ones that are going to be deadly (the ones with the two-handed axes) first, and you can stop their charge with some fairly basic tactics (such as spearwalls and supernimbletankdudes). This isn’t to say those tactics will make you immune to losing a guy to them. It just means you’re not as likely to lose a guy to them.

    Also, always keep in mind what sort of weapons a berserker is wielding. If they’re wielding a two-handed weapon (besides warbrands and jagged pikes which I’ve never seen Berserkers wield), you’ll be able to keep them from hitting you by stepping back, essentially. It takes 6 or 7 AP (I forget which) for them to attack you when they’ve got a two-handed axe, for example. Shift your lines and let them come closer, then swarm them all at once, killing the most dangerous targets first.

    That heather shield was destroyed from 1 shield breaking hit done by that orc standing beside the green armor guy, i believe it was wielding the common Orc axe.

    Yeah, that’s… not good. I don’t remember that happening, but that’s a thing that shouldn’t happen.

    I wonder if this is meant to encourage players to go down the Defense tree? Because right now I only use the Defense tree on specialized tanks like the Nimble Tank. I’ve seen orc warriors with one-handed axes break a heater shield in two hits, though. But one? That’s a bad day.

    And I agree, that should not happen with a one-handed axe. I can see a two-handed sword or two-handed axe doing that… but a one-handed axe? Unless maybe it was an upgraded, rare axe?

    They do drop, by the way. Sometimes you’ll see an orcish weapon that looks exactly like the other orcish weapons but has better stats. I’m pretty sure that can apply to shield damage. You might have gone up against such an enemy.

    #7114
    Danubian
    Participant

    I dont mind losing brothers early on when i dont have equipment or skills to defeat some tough enemies.

    But if i put a ~2000 gold worth of body armor and ~1500 gold worth of helmet armor on a brother, i dont expect them to die in 2 hits. There shouldnt be a standard non unique enemy that does that. I invest myself into leveling and equipping these characters, if they are supposed to drop like flies, even with almost the best possible gear in game, then whats the point of RPG elements of the game.

    No, i dont find that fun at all. Definitely not as the basic game balance. At higher difficulty levels, sure, im all for giving people that if thats their thing.

    #7115
    Mithril
    Participant

    Actually nimble works well for all battle brothers, and as the game progress’s and u have more gold u should be replacing alot of your melee fighters with hedge knights, sword masters, marauders, militia, and even nobles(nobles i prefer not to use, have negative rdef)

    For the person who mentioned what should u stat i go Mdef/fatigue every level, Matk to 70, then hp. For my 2 capitains its Resolve/Mdef/Fatigue

    #7116
    Mithril
    Participant

    Also for orc warriors not using shields, daggers can 2-3 shot them, no joke

    #7117
    Danubian
    Participant

    Looks like ill have to do some experimenting. That dagger thing sounds weird.

    #7118
    Mithril
    Participant

    daggers ignore armor is amazing, also leaves armor intact for loot at end of fight for bandits, I have 4 werewolf mail armor thanks to daggers, just beware they break easy if used on shields/armor

    #7125
    RusBear
    Participant

    With extensive experience of the game. I trained several groups with different variants of development and integration in the “iron man” to 11 levels with virtually no loss. Orcs won forts for 7000 :). I passed all stages of the hatred of goblins and shock to the bloodthirsty heathens revenge greens bastards and killing them by their own supervisors’s crossbow. I want to say that – 50% of all this “too cool” and misunderstandings and the fact that the enemy is considered to be too complicated – just disappear as soon as the developers introduce a system of perks display on enemies – and you’ll know exactly what skills have enemies and they can. 20% is the level of melee and ranged mercenaries def , 20% – level of attack and specialization, and 10% is the bugs :)

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