Topic: Wardogs suggestions

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  • #13667
    Anchar
    Participant

    Hi :)
    First and foremost I want to say many thanks for bringing us this great game :)
    Personally I’m dog owner and I love them, so when I red your blog about implementing of war-dogs I was very happy (I don’t know any other game with war dogs)
    Since Goblin Update I always try to use them in combat, but honestly for me, they are seriously underpower :(
    Yes they are chasing down enemies but nothing more…
    So here are my suggestions
    First of all, we are talking about war dogs, dogs like Central Asian Shepherd dog, Bullmastiff, Perro de Presa Canario, English and Neapolitan Mastiff, Akbash or Rottweiler. They are big, they are supisingly fast and they should hit like ton of brick in the face ;) so it could be great idea to add “charge” ability to them, and after sucessfully charge, enemy should fall (or simply stunned) dog holds him for any kind of limb (thats how dogs attack in real life, they use speed, momentum and their weight, then they bite you as hard as they could) when this happends dog try to tear him apart, still holding jaws closed (now this can use some kind of damage over time)
    Of course it depends on what enemy is wearing, plate armour and chainmals should give very good protection against bite, but not from charge (imagine 60 to 90 kg of muscles running at you twice faster than any human can, this can’t end well :P ) But if we go down to light armor, something like gambeson, should give very little if any, protection. Now its up to your brothers to come and help end life of this poor guy. If you are big orc warrior you could resist, but if you are small goblin… goblin should be very vulnerable to dogs attack.
    Normal attack of dog and wolf should work similar, when it hits, he should tear opponent, adding the fatigue and damage more and more with every turn.
    Here you have a link to short clip by NG, about dog attack styles, especially 0:54 shows how mastiff attack, and next 3:27 how powerfull this bite can be.

    Second thing, if Brother has a dog, but it is still on a leash, dog should act as his master defender. If enemy try to attack in meele this character, he should act in defence of his master (something like parry, you attack brother with dog, be ready to get attack by dog).
    Sorry for my bad english ;)

    #13682
    Marsh The Muddy
    Participant

    Dogs could also inflict bleed (internal bleeding), fear (some dogs look pretty fearsome) and maybe their own Exp bar? (when the exp bar reaches XX, their melee skill goes up by X)
    I do like to use dogs myself, but I don’t know for how many times I had them killed… I never actually use them as frontliners, but only to chase bandit marksmen, necromancers, skeleton bowmen and fleeing direwolves…
    I would like to see the role of the dogs be a little more impotant…

    #13691
    Miaphysites
    Participant

    You sound a little bit like an expert for us on dogs? would you say that? It is interesting that we have both wolves and war dogs, do you know how dogs or wolves might play different? Or say, wargs? It is fantasy after all. These dogs have a simple armor sometimes, you know they’re not that expensive. I don’t know that much about dogs, can you pick them up all trained for 200 gold like that? I haven’t tested a dog versus dire wolf battle, anybody? Do you think Battle Brothers would need to be perked Dog Handlers, police and such get K9 training. I’ve heard wolves have more stalking behavior, dogs more barking behavior, maybe dogs should bark in a direction of enemies.

    #13698
    Ioci
    Participant

    and they should eat!
    i mean meeeat. you cant always feed them with dead enemy body, what if you were fighting against zombies these days? zombie’s meat is not even for orcs. and those skelenton walkers, they dont even have any meat on them!

    #13702
    Miaphysites
    Participant

    Oh have you actually tried sending the dogs after archers?! Beautiful! Finally some strategy too! Ya just save those dogs for goblin/bandit archers its genius, dagger comes out, ah get off me die dog. Otherwise mostly wasting your money or buying off some distraction, again, strategy. One turn leap at the archers, after so many times chasing down the archers, genius. Zone of Control immobilized I’m trying to say.

    #13707
    Marsh The Muddy
    Participant

    I can tell you, I had many (I mean MANY) wardogs chase after bandit marksmen (even had one time when the dog pinned 3 archers), and it only happened to me once to get that dog killed… I don’t know if the bandit merksmen have low melee skill or the dogs high defence, but now I always feel free to just let the dogs out by themselves to kill the archers… I also sometimes use them against undead (skeleton archers, necromancers and zombies) and against any other fleeing enemy (orc, goblin, direwolf etc.)… The thing is that I only give my 2 billhook guys dogs, so they can flank the frontline and release the dogs (so they don’t close with the strong frontliners)…
    Ever since the update with the wardogs, this method has worked amazing…

    #13717
    Anchar
    Participant

    Hmmm I’m veterinarian and dog owner but I don’t think about myself as an “dog-expert”, I learn something new about this great animals every day :) I think that my suggestions could help to improve this great game, because as Marsh wrote, now dogs are usefull only to chasing bandit marksman.
    I use them the same way as you, but imagine unleashing big bad dog by your billhook guy to help your battle brother who has bad time with orc warrior… Dog attack him with full speed, jump on orc and bite him in arm. Now physic works ;) Orc warrior is too big to fall, and have way too heavy armor to be butchered by the dog teeth, but now he must struggle with furious dog, because he cannot fight with your battle brother with 80 kg on his arm trying to pull him down. So dog buy time for your brother to catch a breath and billhook guy can get closer. Orc quicly try to hit dog to break free, but the same moment gets impaled by billhook and taste the steel of your other brother axe hitting him between eyes.
    Or night attack on goblin camp, five of your frontliners have a wardogs, you close and see how first line of gobos change their weapons to this spiked bola and nets. Just before they want to trow and shoot everything at you, your frontliners lower they shields and set dogs free… Your dogs simply crush first line of gobos. One of your dog tear one goblin apart, another hold one on the groud, other dog gets killed by goblin with pike, but it is too late, your battle brothers are close now and when goblin line is broken your guys have easier life killing them (I personally hate goblins :P )
    Or when your crossbowmen gets in fight with vampires, one simply teleports on his back, but your brother one one hand has crossbow and on the other, leash with wardog on the other end, every attack of vampire meet with counterattack of dog, who act in defence of his master :)
    I think that dogs could do somthing more than only chasing fleeing enemies. Zone of control does not mean immobilized, I have few situation that they just too easy get out of this zone. Dogs should stay in this role, buying time to our brothers.
    Feeding dogs is good idea, but I think that you shouldnt feed your dog on corpses (when dev’s adds changes to provision systems I thing they will add something to our dogs, maybe treat them as diffrent party, that could use only meat)
    There is houndmaster, so there is no need to K9 officer perk, they are wardogs, they only help in battle. I think that there is no need in this fantasy world for dog searching for drugs and bombs so we better stay with concept of houndmaster and wardogs ;) Yea its fantasy world, but I think that some realism could help. After all use of weapons here is pretty realistic. Result of hit by hatchet and big axe will be different, in real and in this fantasy game ;)

    #13757
    Sky
    Participant

    Dogs seem to do fine agains skeletal guards in chokepoints. Also good to ambush enemy archers or runners. Very nice against the goblins. Still would be nice to see some dog specific abilities like takedowns that stun the opponent. The tamed animal aspect of the game is underused and imo underdeveloped. A wonderful idea, started great but not finished. I’d like to have the ability to point my dog towards specific targets and not just randomly closest ones. To have dog ai being able to evade not targeted enemies.

    #16286
    SuperCaffeineDude
    Participant

    I think what holds me back from using them late game is fatiguing a man per dog till the enemy retreats. It just seems uneconomical, a head is worth about 110 coin, a dog is worth about 3* as much, and most goblins deal wicked body/flesh damage with their knives/sickles.
    So a dog is purely for the foe in a panicked flight, which I find a rare occurrence, late into the game.

    I would suggest dogs get:
    A new move: “-Grapple- cling on to the opponent causing a victim to struggle to inflict their own blows.”
    One of the dodge traits or a simple dodge increase.

    And dog handlers can…
    Keep two hounds, or perhaps wield hound as autonomous weapon similar to mounted units work, with less movement decrease instead of increase.

    To balance this…
    Dogs eat through supplies
    Dogs have varied breeds, thin-mongrel > butch-warhound, of different prices

    #16513
    Anchar
    Participant

    I found that wardogs are very prone to take high ground by all cost. It’s little bit irritating, when your dog try to get higher even if that means moving right next to the enemy, in his zone of control and giving him attack of opportunity… And it happens a lot.
    Wardogs could have their own experience bar for each dog, longer it stays with his master in company, the bigger chances are for dog to listen and obey command to attack certain enemy. Some sort of charge attack with stun that works like a takedown could be great, because as I said, escaping from zone of control happens to me too often. Direwolves are best in it ;) But seeing a regular bandit thug, who is running away, dog chase him and simply stand right next to him, try to bite, hits or not, thug gets away from zone of control, run as far as he can, dog once more chase him, stay right next to him, and so on and so on, it is an awkward scene.

    #16517
    Wargasm
    Participant

    and those skelenton walkers, they dont even have any meat on them!

    Makes for excellent bone broth, though.

    #16601
    mekaerwin
    Participant

    If the dogs survive do you get them back. I’ve purchased them and used them and I didn’t think they died but I ended up without them. As long as they get returned I think they are great. Very helpful, but not a magic bullet. Seems good to me.

    #16876
    Mike
    Participant

    add “charge” ability to them, and after sucessfully charge, enemy should fall (or simply stunned)

    I’d like to have the ability to point my dog towards specific targets

    +1

    Honestly I like most of the ideas in this thread but those 2 things seem like the easiest to implement and would make the dogs very valuable assets regardless of the opponent faced.

    BUT!

    The biggest problem I’m having with dogs right now is that they are sadly disposable (which would also undermine adding stuff like exp etc. to them).
    I propose the houndmaster background having an additional trait: “Has a chance to save company dogs felled in battle from death” – a slain dog would have a chance, say 66%, to appear back in the company stash as “Wounded dog”, needing a couple of days to recover and be usable in battle again.

    P.S. I also strongly agree with dogs needing food. Adds immersion.

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