Malthus

[Malthus]

If there is a save mechanic inside of combat it will end like every not-ironman xcom game. It ends in uncounted reloads until every strike you do hits and your guys don´t get hurt. This is neither intended nor should it ever be possible in my opinion.
Though the save on exit seems like a very good idea and would deal with the no-time-issue.

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

What made me not choose the shieldbash perk was, that it may give you a little bit of damage but at the same time the description says it builds up 10 more fatique.

Description: The knock back skill now also inflicts 10 – 25 damage (50% vs armor) and 10 fatique in addition to its normal effect.

So it does not really sound much like an improvement.

Right now I just tested it against undeads. I saw that it costs the same fatique as without the perk. So I now assume the 10 fatique are added to the enemy? So the description is a bit misleading I guess atleast for me.

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

GOD wrote:

Yeah, but I assumed you meant that you couldn’t switch back because the switching itself was disallowed, not because you ran out AP. As I said, I don’t actually use Quick Hands all that much, so I assumed it was just an old change until I actually used it for a bit again.

Running out of AP was -> Automatically ending the turn was the only “problem” for the whole switching action from the beginning. I don´t see this as a real problem because I didn´t want that switching abuse to work in the first place.

Running out of AP so not being able to switch back is an “issue” now. But this is good as I said before.

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

Have you read my post from 17:47?

Malthus wrote:

As I told you, I used this with 6 perks in off and 2 + (2) in uti.
Todays patch did atleast make it impossible to switch weapons attack and switch again. This is good.
But Bags and belts lets you still carry every weapon i mentioned at the same time without any penalty. I still think this has to be adressed.

Yes of course it does adress a part of my concerns. To be able to carry tons of different weapons remains. And as I already told you this point is less about beeing overpowered and more about the point that it is uneralistic as hell and it does take away the hard choice to choose your weapon wisely.

I would suggest two handed weapons use 2 bag slots. Every merc should start out with 1 bag slot (so there is still room for a secondary small weapon). Bags and belts will then double the bag slots to 2 (then the perk could stay as it is with the fatique penalty taken away). Then you could take either 2 one handed weapons/shields or one two handed weapon in the bag.

This would still offer to change your weapon, while beeing more realistically and make choosing your weapon a tough choice as it should be.

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

I say it is, you say it is not. We brought our opionions forward on this matter and now should let the devs decide. There is no need for further argumentation as we both seem to be out of new arguments for or against it ;)

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

Right now I just gave these guys fatique, melee attack and melee def every level. Did work just fine. I do not use this build for archers if you have mistaken me.

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

As I told you, I used this with 6 perks in off and 2 + (2) in uti.

Todays patch did atleast make it impossible to switch weapons attack and switch again. This is good.

But Bags and belts lets you still carry every weapon i mentioned at the same time without any penalty. I still think this has to be adressed.

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

GOD wrote:

Not necessarily intended, but not that big of deal either. This is a case where I’ll go with gameplay that adds more tactical options, over realism in combat. The cons are in that you have to spread out your perks and stats to make the most of it, resulting in a build that’s hardly an optimal killing machine. Being versatile then is your just reward, so I don’t see why they shouldn’t be allowed to do that. Granted, that’s as long it’s not actually overpowered. I barely use Quick Hands, so I wouldn’t know that. If it is actually overpowered, having Quick Hands not be usable after skill use should suffice to balance it out.

Right now this is not the case. And while you only need 2 perks in the first row of the utility tree you can make these mercs damn hard offensive.
Think of Quick hands + Bags and belts + blody harvest + fast adaptation + crusher
+ berserk (with this you may score a kill get 4 ap back and then do either a second attack and end your turn with the 2 handed weapong drawn or go back to your shield and do a shieldwall, though in that case you would totally need a way to get rid of your fatique) + full force (you can give that merc heavy armor, as he will only wear the shield when waiting for the next turn)
+ hmm the last perk in the offensive tree is open for discussion I do like the killing frenzy perk but together with another merc with Rally the troops Perfect focus would be better
+ then you still have 2 perks left to spend as you please. If you use the shieldwall thing I mentioned regarding berserk you might like to go for 2 more points in utility with ending on Battle flow which also would work good together with Perfect focus IF you hit the easy critters first.
In which way is such a merc less deadly than any other? I would even say he is more deadly because he has the best weapon for as good as any situation at his hand at any time.

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

zolw wrote:

First a little disclaimer though. As things stand now, I find quickhands perk not working fully, so maybe that is why I do not see it as game-breaking combined with bag and belts perk. At the moment I can freely change items, but only at the beginning of the turn. Changing back doesn’t want to work for some reason after I moved or attacked. Therefore “swiss-army knife” scenario is not actually possible for me

The point is to make it work like i described you can not move and attack with a two handed weapon in the same turn, as you will end up on 1 or less ap which automatically ends your turn. So you already have to stand next to your target.

But if you dont move, attacking only costs 6 ap for a two handed weapon, leaving you with 3 ap left and still beeing able to change back your equip. After that you could make a step.

Beyond this in my opinion you made some very valid points about the rest of the utility skills.

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

So you tell me it is absolutely intended to use a guy with bags an belts + quick hands standing in front of an orc army having a bilhook, great axe, great swort in the bags and a onehand weapon + shield equipped?
Now as soon as the enemies have closed in on him, he does not need to move anymore which means, with full ap he changes his equip to lets say a greatsword because there are two orcs in a line. Bam doublekill. Switch back to onehand + shield for def bonus. Now his brothers dying left and right and he is surrounded by orks. HAA nice to have a Battle Brothers´ Swiss Army knife (Greatsword,Greataxe,Bilhook,onehand+shield all in one) take out your greataxe and show them the tornado of death then switch back to get your shield bonus again before ending the turn. Hmm now they are all dead, no orc inside the one hex range. AAHHH there is another orc right behind my next brother. Lets bilhook him to death.
This cannot be the way to go. This game is about taking meaningful choices aswell in choosing your mercenaries and their equipment and not to have alround fighters. The way this goes it takes all the cons of the different weapons away leaving only the pros…

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

Todays change, giving items in bags a fatique penalty is a step in the right direction but at the same time making bags and belts completely removing said penalty it does not really solve the problem of using quickhands and bags and belts together to use a range of two handed weapons + onehand and shield at the same time.

While the skill should be an improvement it should not be overpowered. In my opinion it would be ok to further decrease the fatique penalty of items carried in the bags to something between 25 and 40 percent. You are able to carry more but that should not lead to a guy carrying a bilhook, a greatsword and a twohanded axe in the bags while carrying a shield and a one handed weapon in his hands, being able to quickchange them within a combat round, attack with a twohanded weapon of his choice ( whatever does the best effect at the given time) and then change back to onehand and shield before ending the turn and all this without any fatique penalty.

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

This game is about playing a traveling mercenary band and not about being a land lord or landscape gardener ;)

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

Might be a good idea to relocate some of the suggestion threads from the other forum to the new one, once there is a little spare time.

And some kind of updated “features to come” list would be good, so that we don´t again and again suggest things you already have on your plans ;)

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

Think of a deadly tavern fight. Spring on the table to get the height advantage xD
I´m very curious what you will come up with^^

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

[Malthus]

PsenBattle wrote:

Total conversions wont happen without modding i think. After that im sure people will come up with sll kinds of crazy stuff

Of course modding capability is a requirement for this to happen. Am I wrong or did that sound a bit more confident that you will be able to make the game modable? :)

"I am a Paladin!"
>OMG, Malthus, there are no damn paladins in Battle Brothers...<
"OK, OK! Then I´m a wrecked down minstrel drunkard pretending to be a paladin, singing so wrong in the midst of battle that even the undead run in fear... Better?!"

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