Meeky

[Meeky]

Danubian wrote:

Well there is probably a list of names that is used to generate random chieftains, so you are bound to run into same name chieftain sooner or later. Ive dont at least 40 “kill orcs” missions since the big update, and i dont remember running into a single chieftain. Those probably start appearing at higher renown or something.

Nah, you have to go hunting for them in the wilderness. They live in what are practically orcish cities.

[Meeky]

Personally, my favorite playthrough had 3 nimble fighters for tanking, a similar number of archers, two hornblowers, and everyone else was a two-handed weapons guy. Everyone that was offensive had Perfect Focus and just smote things while the Nimble guys kept the enemy distracted.

Worked pretty well. I plan to do it again, maybe fudging with the number of nimble fighters.

I’m actually working on testing out Danubian’s strategy in my present playthrough, but haven’t had the time to go far yet.

[Meeky]

As another long-time player, I’ll contend some of these points but also agree with one.

Cross bows are the main offender, just tooo OVERPOWERED… you can move and shoot in the same turn??? and at melee range as well? Why not just make them AUTO HIT aswell.. we can all just use crossbow for everything from now on, because when I do that, I win every fight EASILY.

Well, crossbows are kind of really good, yeah, but they’re not game breaking. They’ve got a high bonus to hit (which fades the more distant the enemy is) and a nice bit of armor penetration. That’s their specialty historically, too: punching through armor and killing a dude with relatively little training required.

You can fire crossbows in melee range, yes. You cannot, however, reload them there. So, you can fire a shot from face distance, then swap to another weapon and start pounding.

You can move 3 spaces and fire with a crossbow, or you can move 2 spaces and fire with a bow. Both weapons have “move and fire” options. Reloading takes 6 AP, however, so don’t expect to move far if you’re out of range after reloading (1 space is all you can move after reloading).

I’d say the crossbow is stronger, but the bow remains very useful for dealing with lightly armored opponents. Nothing mops up a crowd of injured ghouls quite like a hail of arrows.

How come the enemy can deploy their men anywhere on the map in very good positions but all my men are randomly placed? Give us squad deployment phase, this is very frustrating!

This IS something that needs to be changed, and I believe it’s on a to-do list for the devs. One day at a time, though. One day at a time.

But yes, I hope this change comes sooner than later.

Why does AI chose to kill itself to make sure it kills one of my men???? NO-ONE does this in real combat, its dumb as hell. “Oh, I am in trouble here.. should I shield and go defensive?? NO! I will turn around and hit someone else who I am not even fighting instead…” JUST NO

Ranged enemy AI….. “I will move away if they come towards me, then I will move forwards again if they don’t follow me…” at INFINITE…endless chase dance. If as the player, you follow, you take fire every turn and get to them out of stamina and on low life. If you don’t follow, the game just repeats and you waste time………no play loops please, its bad game design.

I’ll be honest: neither of these scenarios seems like bad design to me.

The former situation actually WOULD happen in a real fight. You don’t always think clearly in a fight. Once you get your head knocked around a little and have bled, you sometimes resort to your instincts, which includes sticking the other guy with the pointy end. Not only that, but it forces the player to think about worst case scenarios. “If the enemy attacks, I COULD lose a guy. I need to either be able to wipe out the enemy REALLY QUICKLY or have defensive specialists ready to play crowd control.” THIS is the sort of thinking encouraged by having AI that lashes out.

There are solutions to fighting ranged enemies, too. Buy wardogs if they annoy you that much. Personally, I try to outshoot them or let them run away. Archers typically don’t have the best gear anyway. Another option is to break through the enemy’s shield wall and send someone into the archer line in the same turn. You can typically get a couple archers caught off-guard that way.

5 guys hitting ONE enemy from different sides…. does he get a defence penalty for being attacked or surrounded? Hell NO, he dodges/parrys all of them….THIS IS NOT ACCURATE to real combat even just 3 vs 1 you can no longer defend most attacks.

Actually, there IS a penalty for being surrounded by lots of guys. It’s called “Overwhelmed.” It makes the character who is overwhelmed less likely to avoid hits, meaning even the most nimble of warriors can potentially be defeated by a large enough crowd.

The game would be a lot worse if Overwhelmed didn’t exist, but it does. Next time you’re about to attack someone while they’re surrounded, select the attack ability you want to use, however the mouse over the enemy, and wait for the data on the enemy’s HP/armor/fatigue to come up. You’ll see a modifier called “Overwhelmed” with a green + by it. That means he’s taking penalties to defending himself thanks to being surrounded. (I think you need… 4+ guys for this modifier, though? I forget.)

As for some of the proposed changes…

Cross bow CANNOT be fired after moving and may not be reloaded in melee combat.

MASSIVE ACCURACY penalty for anyone who tried to use ranged weapons after moving at all, on the same turn (yes javlins, hand axe..everything).

Crossbows already can’t be reloaded in melee combat. It SHOULD be able to be fired after moving because firing a crossbow is really easy. You point, you aim like with a gun almost, then shoot. Bam.

Throwing weapons already kind’a suck. Crossbows… I covered that. Quick shot already is way less accurate than Aimed Shot. I see no issue.

No fatigue cost for moving if not leaving or entering melee combat that turn.. so you can chase with gaining fatigue..because otherwise chase dance is game breaking.

You regain fatigue every turn. Unless you’re moving through awful terrain (swamp, elevation changes, forest) you’ll actually decrease in fatigue as you charge across the map. If fighting in difficult terrain… Dude, it’s DIFFICULT TERRAIN. It’s working as intended.

And again, there are already solutions to the chase. Out-shoot the archers, releasing wardogs on ’em, chasing them with a guy that has Pathfinder (works well in difficult terrain)… Yeah, it’s kind of annoying; but they also will actually flee the field once their side has been obliterated. The only possible exception I can think of to this rule are skeleton archers.

Difficulty rating for enemy your mission is putting you against….. its NOT FUN to take a mission and then find the enemy is 5/6 levels higher than you with swap and stuff… I would not take this mission if i knew. All your doing is FORCING me to save-scum your game to make it playable.

I kind of agree, yet then again I kind of… I dunno. See, I can see the merit of your complaint; you sometimes get contracts that are just gonna be too difficult for you to complete. But you have the option of running to the edge of the map and then hitting the retreat button and taking no losses. You can often also see how big the enemy army is before you engage (not always true), and you can break contracts that are gonna be too hard to complete.

I’ll do another ironman run before I dismiss this complaint. You’re not the first to say this.

[Meeky]

And actually I believe the farm hand makes an excellent front line soldier, give him a spear (easier to hit), a shield, and the heaviest armour you can find (he has a high health and stamina pool) — does just fine.

Precisely. And traits could make him even better at it. If he turns out to be a drunkard, there’s nothing wrong with shoving a pike into his hand and making him a two-handed backliner, either. Pikes have a bonus to hit as well, and the pike puts the damage boost to good use.

I think the random factor should remain. I’m okay with backgrounds affecting the likelihood of certain results… but they should still be random.

[Meeky]

Those skeletons are awesome.

Are we looking at seeing different environments for outdoors combat soon, then? I’m assuming combat in places like ruins, fortified orc camps, and dungeons will all still take place outdoors for now.

[Meeky]

Yo meeky what one handed weapons do you prefer?

I recently kinda decided that maces are the best (not the lower tier stuff, but the military grade ones). I would give noble swords to archers vs like vampires and possibly other hard-to-hit stuff…

I used to think that this pick thingie whatever it was called, the one with 200 armor effectiveness was great, but i dont know any more, after having used it extensively i kinda get the feeling it may be just too specialized (sure id like to have a few vs orc warriors?).

Most weapons are pretty specialized, which is why I use Quick Hands + Bags and Belts on everyone. Having potentially 5 weapons on everyone changes the game.

With that said, most characters will have 4 or 5 different weapons on their person. Meatshields will use throwing weapons in one slot, two-handed dudes seem to benefit from carrying crossbows, and Nimble fighters ought to have a kite shield in their inventory (unequipped) and I’ve never liked giving them ranged weapons. So, in general: 4 weapons seems to be how many most characters carry.

Given that, I think it’s fair to figure out what the four best weapons are, not the very best. If I HAD to choose one weapon and one weapon alone with which to beat the game, and it had to be one-handed…?

Hm. I’d probably choose the Fighting Axe. It has high effectiveness vs. armor (125%), decent ability to ignore damage (30%), has a way to deal with shields (gang up and BREAK THEM), high weapon durability (40)… Its damage could be better (35-55), but it’s nevertheless a sort of swiss army knife. It’s not terrible great at any one job, but it’s a solid general weapon. The mace would be its runner up, or very possibly its equal in versatility: it has good damage, good penetration, and good effectiveness vs. armor just like the ace. Stunning Blow’s usefulness is limited, but… still, a very effective weapon. The Noble Sword gets an honorable mention at third place.

However, if I can choose 4 weapons instead of 1, chances are you won’t see the Fighting Axe as often as you’d expect. If all those weapons are one-handed, I’d choose…

A Warhammer (for breaking through armor – 200% damage effectiveness vs. armor ROCKS)
A Scramasax (for just ignoring armor with Puncture – useful when you want to recover a piece of equipment and can reliably surround the target; I.E., useful during the mop-up phase)
A Military Cleaver or Head Chopper (I always prefer to give my Wildmen the orcish versions of weapons; both the Cleaver and Chopper are amazing for dealing with enemies who’ve already lost their armor)
And a Noble Sword, Boar Spear, or Flail (mostly for the +10% / +20% chance to hit and defensive value for the sword / spear, but the flail – although I hate flails – admittedly has the useful ability to hit enemies despite them shielding up)

Notice that the first three weapons (warhammer/scramasax/cleaver) are all very, very specialized weapons. They have very specific purposes when I use them: the hammer to destroy armor, the cleaver to destroy flesh, and the scramasax to cut make sure I get the loot I want so badly. The noble sword, boar spear, and flail all have bonuses to their accuracy, which means they’re very useful when I need to hit something relatively hard but also need to make sure I can actually hit the darned thing. But the sword and spear aren’t situational while the flail is, and I honestly feel like the flail has a useless second ability, so I prefer the sword and spear over the flail.

Now, I still use the Fighting Axe and Mace in my army composition. I have, after all, usually several different guys in my army. I can equip them differently not only for variety but for different sort of situational usefulness. The Fighting Axe has seen use in all my games, as has the Mace, even though they’re not listed as one of my four “best case scenario” weapons. Why? They’re still Swiss army knives. They’re darned useful.

Named weapons also change how I play the game. I’ve got a Honed Oathkeeper (Noble Longsword) which deals 54-60 damage in my present iteration of the Lucky Bastards. I’ve also got a Well Crafted Maul (39-61 damage mace), Orc Warrior’s Ripper (45-78 damage Head Chopper), Deadly Whip (flail with +10% chance to hit head), a Deadly Axe (greataxe with 177% effectiveness vs. armor and only -12 fatigue), a couple more unique maces, a unique kite shield… Etc. What I find and when I find it changes how I play.

[Meeky]

Well, I’m going to try out your army setup and see how it works for me. The third iteration of the Lucky Bastards is due for retirement anyway. Methinks the Black Vipers would be a good name for an army of nimble warriors.

[Meeky]

Danubian wrote:

Wait meeky wasnt it you who originally suggest nimble build to me when i complained about Orc Warriors being too tough?

Yes! I don’t take it on every character, but it deals with orc warriors like a charm, yes. Since you use it on a lot of guys, I was curious what your level up scheme is. I’ve never tried taking an army of ALL nimble fighters because I’ve always felt they functioned best supporting other characters by being invincible.

Nimble fighters are a hard counter to orc warriors, fallen heroes, and basically all really nasty melee guys. I find them indispensable and always keep a few in my army (2-4 is good). However, more ranged opponents are being added, and they’re coming equipped with crossbows which means their ranged accuracy is high. The newest enemies of this nature are mercenaries and bounty hunters.

Danubian wrote:

I dont know what bounty hunters and mercenaries are?

Okay, so bounty hunters and mercenaries are a new enemy that’s appeared in Battle Brothers since the big worldmap update. They are NOT bandits. These guys are much, much tougher than bandits, and you can fight 20+ of them at once.

Think of Bounty Hunters and Mercenaries as comparable to your own Battle Brothers. A lot of them have Quick Hands, and most have a high attack/ranged ability and decent defense. They carry crossbows more often than bows in my experience, they form shieldwalls, and they hurl throwing weapons at you. The reason they’re important to consider here is you can’t predict (unless you memorize the events for contracts) when you’ll stumble into them.

See, Bounty Hunters and Mercenaries don’t roam the worldmap yet. Right now, they trigger as part of an event and attack you. I’ve seen as few as 6 attack me, but I’ve also been forced to flee from an army of 24 or so Bounty Hunters with wardogs.

They don’t have all the tricks goblins do, but they’ve typically got heavy armor, good HP, good attack, decent weapons, and lots of ranged weapons… the ranged weapons being dangerous to Nimble fighters.

If you haven’t encountered them, then I’d suggest you try out the contracts to kill bandit camps and deliver cargo in the current update. They can trigger if you…

A) Are delivering cargo and someone decides to take it from you. Those are Mercenaries.
B) Destroy a bandit camp that gets a bandit leader as part of an event (only occurs when you have the destroy-a-bandit-camp job). Bounty Hunters attack after the fight while you’re still repairing gear / licking wounds.

Get into a tangle with a couple of those groups and let me know how it works out. Again: I’ve always used Nimble fighters, but I’ve never used them to completely replace all melee characters. Kite shields are super useful vs. goblins / bounty hunters / mercenaries.

[Meeky]

Danubian wrote:

One half of my team are nimble melee fighters (they basically hold the line) – i start with defense and then switch to utility (to pick that perk that halves fatigue for armors).

and second half of my team are archers/crossbowmen who start off with utility and then switch into offense
What you get that way are superb nimble tanks that are super hard to hit – i like to arm them with maces – and you get crossbowmen that confuse the AI into thinking they are weak so it attacks them – and when they do attack i simply switch to 2 handed weapons (and later one handed once i got nimble on them as well) and slaughter everything.

This way you have everything covered – you can fill the normal enemies with bolts from crossbows (really good for picking off orc bersekers for example) and when you run into enemies that are mostly resistant to arrows/bolts (skeletons?) you can still switch to two handed weapons and help your first line.

There are some weaknesses to this. Not every character will make a great Nimble fighter, so it’ll take a while to get the perfect lineup, and enemies like goblins and bounty hunters / mercenaries will make mincemeat of your shieldless army. Carrying spare kite shields with Bags and Belts ought to help.

One question that comes to mind is “How are you distributing points?” When you specialize someone, their stats tend to be easy to focus. A ranged character typically increases ranged attack at every level; a melee fighter takes some combination of melee defense / HP / Fatigue / melee attack. Etc. But when you start getting guys who you want to be good at both melee and ranged combat, your points get a little more sparse.

Basically, I’d love to know what your method is so I can try it out myself.

Binkus wrote:

Legendary posts Meeky, some really interesting stuff it makes my just hit them really hard approach look like child’s play

They’re really not that special. A lot of people have done similar things, I think.

The heavy weapons build doesn’t start playing like a heavy weapons build until later, and you really need a wildman, farmer, hedge knight or sellsword to really make it work. Traits that boost fatigue / damage (Drunkard is a godsend) are awesome on these guys. High melee attack is important, too. Extra HP or fatigue recovery sure don’t hurt.

As an aside, IMO the Tier 3 defense tree is still pretty unrewarding to dive into. Those are reactive abilities that you have to activate proactively, and the enemy AI tends to know to go for other units. Maybe they’d work alongside the Taunt skill, but at that point… Honestly, it seems like a waste of a turn.

[Meeky]

Anonymous wrote:

Wow nice! Thanks for your answer! I want to try these now

You’re welcome. I actually have builds for most of the roles you listed, though not the throwing weapons guy. I… honestly, I’ve never been a huge fan of throwing weapons in this game. It sucks because throwing weapons are one of my favorite things to make builds around in tabletop RPGs.

One thing I’ve considered doing is outfitting all my two-handed weapons guys with crossbows.

[Meeky]

RusBear wrote:

you play with save/load ? I do not think that Leif could survive well in the early stages of the company. I must admit that as a pure situational DD he looks good. but I prefer a little more reliable build.

Leif started off using sword-and-board, as do most of my Battle Brothers. I start planning who my two-handed weapons users will be early, but they frequently don’t start smashing faces until they’re at Tier 2 / Tier 3 Offense.

When they finally are tough enough in HP and Fatigue to take hits, I start them off using pikes and billhooks for the range (letting them stand behind the meatshields). Once they hit level 10 and have Quick Hands + Bags and Belts I shove them into the front line. By that point they have pikes/billhooks, greatswords/warbrands, greataxes of some kind, and two other random weapons that I choose based on the character. They’re also prioritized as far as heavy armor goes, and they’re actually VERY reliable once they reach the point I’m talking about.

I do play with save/load sometimes. I’ve done a couple Ironman playthroughs, but I usually prefer to just play through the game normally.

[Meeky]

Oh, by the way: ditching Weaponmaster on the Swordmaster is totally fine. You can replace it with Fortified Mind so that ghosts can’t spook your guy away. You could ditch Rotation, too, but I love that skill.

EDIT: Oh, and here’s Gisbert the Graceful from a WAY older patch.

[Meeky]

– A two-handed orcish weapons specialist? The second-tier perk from utility which lower the fatigue from using a weapon could allow that… but I don’t know which perks I should pick on first-tier actually. Got an idea guys?

Tons.

Wildmen are a great base to start from. I actually don’t take the less-fatigue-from-weapons trait on these guys because they can sling around five different massive sluggers of your choice. But I always start on the offense tree, and there’s good reasons to do so. Let me post a screenshot.

Note that Leif didn’t start carrying two-handed weapons until he had reached Tier 2 of the Offense tree. I didn’t want him getting killed by arrows. So, I got him the best armor I could afford and made sure to give him lots of HP and Fatigue.

From the Offense tree:

Tier 1 – Leif takes Sundering Strikes and Executioner for being raw damage boosts and he takes Bloody Harvest because it helps him hit with his AoE weapons (the warbrand and greataxe). He’d be in a much better position if he used a greatsword instead of a warbrand, honestly. He’s probably going to be given one soon. You can take Headhunter instead of Executioner since most enemies are gonna be dead once you get to the point where carrying two-handed weapons works.

Tier 2 – Fast Adaption is generally just good on everyone except maybe crossbowmen. It gives you a boost to your chance to hit. Full Force is awesome for two-handed weapons guys because they tend to be tromping about in the heaviest armor you can find. In this case, Leif’s armor gives him +30 maximum damage. In this case, this means his basic attack with his orcish greataxe deals an incredible 135-225 damage, or 243-405 armor damage because it hits both head and body. Nice. Just… nice.

Tier 3 – Perfect Focus is just perfect for two-handed weapons guys. It means you can activate Perfect Focus, slam your axe down a guy’s throat, then swap to your pike and stab someone else. It also means you can use Perfect Focus and potentially sweep with your Greatsword twice in the same turn. It costs a ton of fatigue, but that’s what your hornblowers are for. (If you don’t know what a hornblower is, look at Rally the Troops in Tier 3 of Utility, and imagine a character with 80+ Resolve. Now get that guy Euphoric, Eager, or Drunk. Yeah.)

From the Utility tree:

Tier 1 – You ABSOLUTELY ALWAYS want to take Bags and Belts + Quick Hands. I just can’t think of any situation where that’s NOT a good idea. This lets you swap between your greataxe, your greatsword, your pike, your dagger for stabbing dudes dead without breaking their armor, and whatever your fourth and fifth weapons are. Pathfinder is generally just good because bad terrain can make you unable to walk 1 space without needing Perfect Focus to attack.

Tier 2 – Brawny. You want heavy armor. Your fatigue is being restored by the hornblowers. So… Just get Brawny and wear the heaviest armor you can. It boosts your damage and it boosts your ability to stay alive.

A sword master with one-handed sword, a good initiative (and a light armour to conserve it), using the perk from defense tree which let you dodge untill first hit and second-tier defense tree which let you double your melee defense with left hand free. This one may be strong using “riposte” skill with a sword.

So, this is exactly how I used to make my swordmasters. However, I’ve since realized a few things that are absolutely critical to understand:

1) You want heavy armor. In the off-chance someone hits your weaponmaster, you don’t want him dying in 1 shot to an orc with a greataxe.
2) You don’t really need high initiative. Remember that the enemy will ALWAYS have at LEAST a 5% chance to hit you, so at some point there’s no return on having a super high defense. Also remember that you lose that Dodge bonus as soon as you get hit.

Now, once upon a time I had a guy with 126 melee defense, and I’m pretty sure there’s a picture of him somewhere. However, that was in an old patch. I’m not sure if that’s possible without super high melee defense rolls now.

But I do have a weapon master that I think makes a perfect example of how I’d build one now. Meet Dirk, the man with a measly 112 melee defense!

Jokes aside, let’s talk about why he has that high melee defense. There’s Nimble, obviously, and there’s Dodge… But notice how he’s also Confident. That gives him +5 melee defense, which translates to +10. He also happens to have Sure Footing along with being a Swordmaster, which helped him get that high. And, of course, I pumped my numbers into his Melee Defense every level.

But his perk choices probably look really weird, don’t they?

From the Defense tree:

Tier 1 – He’s never gonna use a shield, so I just took the basic armor / HP boosts and got him Dodge. Easy enough choice.

Tier 2 – I got Nimble before going to another tree. But notice that I came back to take Rotation. This lets Dirk swap places with a guy who’s in trouble, and it’s not like Dirk cares if he’s surrounded by 6 enemies anyway. He can hold the line against anyone and anything, even with his MEASLY 112 defense.

From the Utility tree:

Tier 1 – Bags and Belts. Quick Hands. Pathfinder. You know the reasons already.

Tier 2 – Brawny lets the old man (notice that he even has an old man face as a trait now) wear heavy armor without sweating it. 83 fatigue is plenty, and he’s got armor enough to not get 1-shot… I think. I don’t think he can be 1-shot by NPCs. Oh, and he has Weaponmaster so that his weapon lasts longer, and he doesn’t burn himself out very easily.

By the way, something to keep in mind: because a Swordmaster has a free hand, he actually gets the “double grip” bonus on his weapons. So, give him a high damaging weapon, like the sword Dirk has. The Honed Oathkeeper deals 54-60 damage, which turns into 67-75 on Dirk, and 0-15 of that can ignore armor. Not bad, old man. Not bad.

By the way, Dirk could probably get away with having a much lighter helmet, one which could increase his field of vision, but the head is very vulnerable and he’s already got bad eyesight. Might as well go all-out and give him a huge helmet, right?

[Meeky]

PsenBattle wrote:

For the worldmap upate we only managed to properly implement 9 Contracts. We are working hard to get more in, there are 11 more designed and written. They just have to be implemented which sometimes is tricky as we have to bend or manipulate existing game mechanics.

Okay, awesome. Thanks for the reply, that’s what I needed to know!

[Meeky]

My Wildmen keep their tattoos when I use the barber shop. The shop just doesn’t show the tattoos.

I noticed the body shape issue as well, though. I was a little surprised to realize all the battle brothers had the same body type.

[Author]

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