4. March 2016 at 18:18 #12938
I’ve been enjoying the game update immensely for the most part, sinking several hours in. But the leveling system has me frustrated to no end.
I was a critic before of the switch from randomized stat upgrades to standardized ones. And with the roll out of the world map update I was happy to see a return of the randomized numbers. Until I discovered that the Melee Attack stat has been nerfed even more. I’m up to level 5-7 and not a single brother has ever increased his melee attack by more than +2 and since I started tracking the numbers, I have gotten 44 (+1) and 26 (+2). Now this isn’t a large enough sample size but the average melee increase comes out to 1.37. So I started a new game with the intention of save scumming my way around what I view as a horribly unbalanced leveling system which favors ditching my brothers of character and history for objectively better mercs that start with better stats. And after a couple things happened I decided to make multiple saves and took my game in 2 different directions (playing the same game start twice), recorded the stat increases for every brother at every level increase up to level 4. And what I found is that every brother had the same stat increases at every level in both games. Which leads me to believe that while the stats are randomized, they are fixed for all levels right from the creation of the character.
I hate this. Not only was Melee Attack weak before, but now with Ranged Attack regularly getting +3’s, melee is an even worse alternative and a crew with crossbows is now objectively better than a melee focused group. I don’t like having my play style determined for me as any other style is now second rate. It takes the creative fun out of the game for me and unless this system is changed to either higher melee stats or made susceptible to save scumming so I can work around the imbalance, I’m done playing the game. I’m sure I’m not the only one annoyed by the system and as this is early access (hardcore player base), my guess is that a good segment of your broader full release (softcore player base) audience will also be turned off.
Please change something. I love this game and it’s so unique. I want to play it and continue recommending it to my friends but right now I just can’t get past how annoying/limiting the leveling system is. It’s no longer fun for me.4. March 2016 at 18:31 #12939RusBearParticipant
this issue havd raised many times. randomly (in the present state) and fixed system – both are not very good. breaking game. we need complex system of development, which takes into account many factors, such as the background of a mercenary, a level, associated stats, in combat action, all sorts events and solutions of this events.
Developers reported that it will change. We can only wait.4. March 2016 at 18:31 #12940MeekyParticipant
I’ve gotten plenty of +3 and a few +4 rolls for melee attack bonus in my present game. Ranged attackers typically have higher attack than my other guys – they do seem to roll a little higher – but I find that melee has the advantage of weapon variety. Whether you’re going two-handed weapons guy or shield guy, you get the choice between weapons that can break armor, ignore armor, break shields, make you a counter-attacking beast, stun enemies, etc. A crossbowman is a one trick pony.4. March 2016 at 19:01 #12942
I’ve gotten plenty of +3 and a few +4 rolls for melee attack bonus in my present game.
I don’t understand why I haven’t seen any of these increases in my games then. Because assuming even distribution, that should average out to +2.5 melee attack per level and I’d be happy with that. Must be some weird bug for just my machine. Because the odds of me simply not landing a +3 or +4 after more than 70 upgrades is 1/2^70 …asymptotic to zero.
And crossbowmen being a 1 trick pony. With quick hands, bag & belts, berzerk and rage they’re a VERY potent 1 trick, 2 or 3 kill, pony and with an orcish crossbow they’ll even 1 shot Fallen Heroes4. March 2016 at 19:09 #12943
And now that I’m thinking of it, developers, assuming you guys are using “int”s for your variables on the random number generation, something is probably happening that causes mine to be divided by 2 so that the truncation leaves me with more +1’s than +2’s and possibly the resulting +0’s to be discarded which would result in an average leveling rate of +1.33, very close to my observed +1.37. Any idea where I should look in the program to fix it on my machine?4. March 2016 at 19:17 #129444. March 2016 at 19:37 #12948SkyParticipant
It is definitely more wideranged now to the previous lvlings I had. Back then I rarely saw 1 and 2, now for me it goes the full range from 1 to 4. But there are stats like resolve fati and init that getting the higher grades all the time in my game while the attack and defenses getting mostly the lower ones. But, and it is a big but, playing at normal with low end backgrounds even with lower fighting stat increases there are not many things that can seriously challenge my team. Maybe the stat increase range should be dependant on the background so a warrior like guy gets more into fighting skill, while a monk more to resolve etc.4. March 2016 at 23:35 #12962DanubianParticipant
Im not a big fan of the current system.
I honestly dont understand what the whole point of not letting the player upgrade the characters they want the way they want is such a problem…5. March 2016 at 02:32 #12987DanubianParticipant
After level 7 its like this for practically every bro…
The game just decides “nope Danubian, you cant do what you want, because of reasons, screw you”.5. March 2016 at 17:52 #13036mrbunnybanParticipant
And there we have it! A screenshot proof that melee attack CAN go up by +3.
Still not a fan of random stat gains.5. March 2016 at 20:33 #13039spamtabooParticipant
I would say that plain non-randomness is also not an option. It is way too boring :) But when your swordmaster gets 3 times in a row +1 to melee skill it is kind on sad :). There should be differences between chars, at least in caps if not in stat gain.6. March 2016 at 07:44 #13054SarissofoiParticipant
I run mostly with cheap backgrounds(due to start another map sickness and semiIron man runs od deadly) and they I don’t have a single 4 roll on Melee Skill stat. The highest was 3 for primary stats(RS,MS,RD,MD) and 4 for secondary(Fatigue,Bravery,HP,Init) but often than not I get 1 for primary and 2 for secondary stats. Not a single 4 for primary or 5 for secondary.
Over all I get enough of lower rolls that I think it was below average 2 for primary or 3 for secondary stats.
It make cheap background very weak especially compared to high basic stats of professional military and noble backgrounds, better traits of their and their better progression(on forum guys report 4 growth for primary stats).
The current stat growth is punishing player for investing time into not optimal recruits.
Not reliable stat growth is especially hurting with static and not refundable perk system.
The current system have three pillars that soldier is build:
-basic stats based on background
-perks and traits(traits affected by background and negative one are clearly bad)
-level up stats growth it supposed to be random and not affected by backgrounds but who knows
But let think about the idea of forth pillar:
-trainings and experiences
Let me explain.
– basic stats are rolled in much bigger range that before but ranges are the same for any background(yes the same) with some minor differences between social class(Commoners eat everything, Nobles have some bonuses to stats but demand high quality food)
– traits get remodelled to not make them not pure negative or positive (with some exceptions)
For example Optimist don’t give a flat increase of Resolve but grant bonus to rolls when Morale can get increased.
On the other hand Pessimist get big bonus to resist negative morale checks(he expect bad things to happen) but penalty for a rolls to morale increase.
Or say Cocky(right now its terrible trait 5resolve is not worth 5Melee and range defence) Grant resolve bonus for using resolve based skills but also great penalty when getting hit(as he is not really brave but a fake).
The traits should be more occasional than just flat bonuses.
-the level up stats could be both random and chosen
Any character could have a small random growth automatic applied on level(not affected by player choice). Soldier level up and he get few points as a free upgrade(not too much say 1MS and 2 fatigue or 1RS and 2 Init). Not too much and they are free.
But also player can add some small amount to 3 stats as before(say 1 for primary and 2 for secondary stat). Not too much but still it would be a thing after ten levels.
– then there is a Training and Experience
What exactly differ professional Soldiers from Fresh recruits?
Training and experience.
Its like perk system but it mostly grant flat stat increase and can be earned by many ways. By simply spending time with company, earning experience, slaying enemies or dealing damage, or fighting set amount of battles, or using weapons set amount of time, etc.
-basic Military training(grant 5MS,5RS)
Soldier who spent few days with company have increase chance to earn this. Soldiers train each other and having experienced soldiers could trigger this fast.
For example all Militiamen come with a at last 1 or 2 levels of experience and they have Basic Military Training.
Sellswords start on 4-5 level and have Advanced Military Training.
Some backgrounds can come with Survival training that increase HP and fatigue(hard working people) other can have reflex training(Thieves or Ratcatchers) etc.
Trainings increase stats by flat amount.
Weapon proficiency give user weapon based bonus(either Accuracy, damage, defence or fatigue cost reduction or even additional skill or reduced durability cost on use).
Experience grant user bonus against specified enemy(bonus chance to hit, bonus damage, bonus to resolve or bonus to defence).
It will greatly help to give troops individual feeling.
Like look at this Militiamen(2Lv):
-he has Basic Spear Proficiency
-basic Military Training
-Advanced Physical Training
He cost 500 coins to recruit, 10 to upkeep and will eat everything
Look at this Swordmaster(5Lv):
-Master Sword Proficiency
-Basic Dagger Proficiency
-Advanced Reflex Training
-Advanced Defence Training
This guy cost 5000 coin to recruit, 30 to pay upkeep and demand wine and meat on his dinner
All have varies degree
The big thing is that it can be achieved by anyone but it take time and guys without it have harder times to survive.
So either player can get experience mercenaries but at great monetary cost or get some freshmen and train them.
Anybody thoughts?6. March 2016 at 10:45 #13060RusBearParticipant
Yeah, something – what thoughts were on this matter :)
I see that the complex and multi-variable system of mercenaries leveling (depending on the background, successful operations, reputation and even events) comes to the minds of many players in the BB. Hopefully, the developers think and plan in the same direction.6. March 2016 at 12:56 #13063SarissofoiParticipant
Proficiencies(levelled at amount of damage dealt by type of weapon) would make possible to have characters specialized in specific weapons. Swordmaster will be actually swordmaster not a guy who can use any weapon. Also it would be move against Bags&Belts and Quick hands Jacks of all trades – by that I mean guys who are walking armories – it still will be possible but levelling one/two weapons will be faster than few types. It would also make using some of lower tier weapons more attractive as a step taken into levelling up.
The non military recruits would have none of them when military one could have few levels.
Even non military could have some of them.
Woodcutters having Axe and 2hand Axes Prof.
Butchers – Cleavers
Miners and Stonemasons -Picks and hammers
Thieves and Killers – Daggers
Poachers and Hunters – Spears, Javelins, Xbows or Bows
Noble backgrounds – Swords but also could have Xbows or Javelins(hunting)
Militia and Deserters – spears and or other random skill set
Professional Military – skilled with most of them but specialized in few or one
That way you can hire a Commoners and make them into soldier you want.
Proficiency could be built into a small tree(a point is earned as a character level up in said Proficiency) and trees could be different varies on weapon types.
For example Sword Proficiency could look like that
A. Basic +5 Accuracy
B. Advanced +5 Accuracy +5% damage
C1. Skilled Offence +5% damage,
C2. Skilled Defence +5 Defence Skill.
C3. Efficient Moves -20% fatigue cost
D. Master +5 accuracy New Special attack skill Flurry(make 2 attacks instead of one with -15% Accuracy for fatigue cost of 30).
Best thing is that levelling of proficiency would be not dependant on Soldier level and could be improved in Veterans Hall in cities(for coin) to some degree. It would be also for any soldier to level up in all proficiency but it will take a lot of time. Professional backgrounds will have a advantage of knowing some of it. So player can decide if he want save a time at a cash cost(it would also make replacing experienced losses easier).
Experience and Knowledge(levelled by killing specific enemies or by number of battles against said enemy) would grants specific bonuses for soldiers who fight against specific units. Killing stronger version of enemy(like killing warrior orc instead of young Orc) would level up that experience faster.
It could be typical Tiered skill set that grant some minor bonuses against specific enemy. Some Backgrounds could come with them and there could be made some new Backgrounds that resolve about this(like Bounty Hunter, Beast Hunter, or Goblin Hunter). For example Hunters could have some started bonus Beast Experience and Witch Hunters Undead Experience
1.Basic Undead Knowledge: +5% damage, +5 to resist negative rolls caused by Undeads
Some soldiers could even start with some random levels, especially if it connected to their backgrounds(Like grave robbers). Some basic levels of knowledge could be taught by instructors in Veterans Hall in cities or in Company(if you have one with the Instructor Trait).
Training would simulate physical and mental level of soldiers by flat increase of stats.
It could be gained by simply having a soldier in company(as he train with others). Having experienced soldiers who can teach freshmen could speed up this process.
Basic Military Training – 5Acc, 5 Resolve, 10 Fatigue
It could be Tiered. Some backgrounds could learn faster or come with some training already.
There would be big difference even with similar basic backgrounds(even if basic roll stats will be similar).
A. Fisherman Herman start with Basic Spear Proficiency, Adv. Physical Training(+Fatigue), Basic Reflex Training(+Initiative)
B. Militiamen Gerhard start with Basic Spear and Sword Prof., Basic Physical Training, Basic Discipline(+resolve)
This way a a characters with the same a basic stats rolls could end as completely different individuals.
Mostly levelling of this skills would come natural. March, fight and kill enemies and they will grow naturally. Also it would help balance things in game(as farming bandits would not make your soldiers to gain experience against undeads) and help to stop over inflating stats.
Cheap backgrounds will become available again.
Thanks for reading I hear that you like wall of text so I make one.6. March 2016 at 18:43 #13072JaffaiParticipant
It seems game rolls 10 numbers for every stat when he spawned. For example melee attack rolls, 3 1 3 3 1 1 1 1 1 1. Only way to get pass bad roll is to pick it.
I think current system is more balanced than last one. Melee attack will be lower all around board which forces you to use all tricks available to take down enemy.
In last patch there was no need to break shields and etc, because brothers had ridiculously high melee and melee defence skills.
MinMaxing is harder now too, I never know how many level ups are needed to put max fatigue to able to use heaviest armor and still able to do 2 attacks.
I understand its frustrating to roll +1 three times a row, but its rewarding to roll that +4. I guess there should be somekind of variable to prevent super bad rolls, like ten +1.
I dont like your ideas to make “hidden” stuff to determinate level up rolls, that kind of system “forces” players to play gimmickly. I know this effects mostly minmaxer but this segment shouldnt be ignored.
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