Topic: Build 0.5.0.1. Discussion of the patch.

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  • #6090
    PsenBattle
    Keymaster

    I am entering a bit late here, but let me answer a few things:

    Have the spawning rules for enemy groups been changed? I was obliterated within the second day. First encounter: the tutorial one, no problems. Second encounter: “challenging” or “deadly” (don’t remember exactly) bandits

    The second encounter should always be the abandoned graveyard right next to the city. It is visible from the start and intended to get your bros some more fighting experience and money.
    Challenging enemies are superior to your troupe, hence the name. If you fight an “even” group the chances of winning are considered to be 50/50. Hence the name “even”.
    Spawning rules have not been changed, excpet for werwolves, those are now smaller groups and shouldnt be a problem to deal with anymore.
    Enemy groups shouldnt move faster than you on the worldmap, especially if they have more men than you, so its possible to avoid encounters with superior enemies.

    1. The game also got considerably harder in the early stages. Lethality amongst my brothers is higher than ever. The new armor system + an AI that focus fires fairly well means that I suffer losses in engagements that I would have considered “easy mode” before this patch.

    The rules of the game have changed quite a bit and you will have to adapt to survive :)
    This isnt even the fginal game yet and there will be tons of features added and rules changed in the future.

    Under the new patch, you will still hire a few cheap guys to get your company started but they tend to suck. Only the expensive backgrounds seem to give you real quality. In contrast, these backgrounds now give much better stats than ever before.

    The only things we changed are that you cant see the added bonus to stats anymore and that specialized backgrounds (hunter for example) dont suck in their area of expertise.
    “weak” backgrounds have not been touched :)

    I hope the next point on your to-do-list is a world map overhaul:

    It absolutely is :)

    another long time issue: it would be nice to have more contracts available

    That will be part of the worldmap rework

    Last but not least, a big compliment: This is an exceptionally well run early-access!

    Thanks man!

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    #6092
    PsenBattle
    Keymaster

    Just saw a hedge knight available for hire for 8000 gold.
    I must say, I really love the new prices. (no sarcasm, I really do)

    Biggest part of that sum is the heavy armor and weapon he carries.

    Another unfortunate side-effect of the changes to the economy is that now the boring “messenger boy” phase lasts much longer. This is the worst part of battlebrothers: your party is too weak to defeat most enemies or take out their hideouts

    I tend to start off like this: Do the first bandit contract, get some more men and equip, do the abandoned graveyard (take care :)).
    After that i do an escort caravan or messenger contract. While walking there I always see a few locations along the road and most of them arent too difficult to take care of.

    -There’s no way to buy nets. I’d love to use them more often, but I can only get them by hiring fishermen. Goblins haven’t dropped them yet.

    Well check on that and discuss again internally.

    quote=6082]-Is the accuracy of throwing weapons determined by the ranged skill, or entirely by the distance, no matter how skilled the user is?[/quote]
    Its the ranged skill.

    -When using War Dogs in battles with the militia, the militia attempts to kill them! ;( Haven’t seen melee attacks, but ranged attacks.

    A bug that has been fixed by now :)

    -The bandit armor decreases the max. fatigue less then regular armor with the same durability. Same for vision. Also these bandit helmets with the red cloth appear very often for me. Most of my brothers have this helmet now, and I never had to buy any new helmets.

    Lucky you, I dont find a lot of those. And if I do, the people wearing them tend to get killed :)

    -I still get loot from enemies I didn’t kill. Is that supposed to be this way?

    Sure you didnt kill them by bleeding damage or with a wardog or something? We will see into that.

    -I lost an even battle against the orcs (ugh…). So I reloaded and the orcs became stronger! I fought again, lost, reloaded, and they became even stronger! Even —> Challenging —> Deadly

    That labelling system is still a bit of a trouble child. We are constantly working on that and may even come up with something else during the worldmap rework.

    -The young orcs name is “Orc Young”. Shouldn’t it be “Young Orc”?

    That stems from the naming system: Orc Young, Orc Berserk, Orc Warrior, Orc Warlord

    An even group of goblins absolutely annihilated a challenging group of orcs, that is way overpowered.

    We did a lot of tests with AI battling each other and that didnt happen to us yet. Well check it out. Its more likely to be a problem with the strength labelling system, than with the actual units.

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    #6094
    mrbunnyban
    Participant

    If the accuracy of thrown weapons is determined strictly by range, this may go some way to explaining the absolutely absurd accuracy the goblins have with their bolas, seriously, they have a hit rate in the upper 70’s with those things at the outer edge of that range during daytime, but they won’t use them at all during night (I’m guessing this is because the AI knows the chance to hit and therefore assumes it’s a waste of time).

    In the scenario at least, I noticed that the goblins accuracy with bola is okay, pretty hit and miss. It’s just really devastating when they do because the bolas reduce both defence and attack. It’s possible you just had a bad round of RNG.

    I’m more concerned with those darned shaman – there is absolutely no way to resist being entangled by roots every round and the shaman doesn’t get tired doing it. Fortunately there is a work around to reduce the effect by separating out the units so that entangle only affects one unit at a time.

    #6095
    PsenBattle
    Keymaster

    the bolas reduce both defence and attack.

    If they do this would be a bug. They just do damage like every other throwing weapon.

    there is a work around to reduce the effect by separating out the units so that entangle only affects one unit at a time.

    Thats exactly true. On top of that he doesnt take a lot of damage, so its a good idea to snipe him early on if you get the chance.

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    #6097
    RusBear
    Participant

    So, before writing this post, I watched a few streams in the game with a new patch, shared his impressions with my friends who also love this game, and some buy it for my advice (so now it turns out I am responsible :)).
    What we have in the end.
    Just to clarify – we will not discuss here the costs of minor inaccuracies and early access.
    Important:
    1. All unanimously pointed out that with the introduction of the new mechanics of armor and throwing weapons the game (of the battle) have become more randomly and, as you know – random always against players. Can someone loves random, but I personally hate it, especially in tactical turn-based games.
    2. I can not know, much less ask the developers to adjust future plans for the development of the game. But it is also concluded that the next priority is to change the skill tree and the principle of level up mercenaries. Already it does not meet for battles vs new faction of goblins. Perhaps you plan to change this after the introduction of the other factions (we do not know about your plans), but otherwise we will see a picture I’ve seen on most streams – the first meeting with a group of weak goblins or equal = a new game. New game and avoiding a battle with them in the future. I do not think this is what you wanted.
    3. The dog is almost useless. Not only that, I just feel sorry for them, but even I get down on their 1-2 runaway archers … so I lost two dogs – Archer fleeing bandits killed a dog on one turn, while she never got over it. I agree that the issue dog for 6 orcs it should mean to lose it – it is logical, but the dog that catches the enemy like as broken morale and dying – this is very bad. Maybe it makes sense to all the retreating enemy automatically lower the morale? They run away, don’t they? Well, a little bit to improve the dogs, since we can not level up them :)

    #6100
    PsenBattle
    Keymaster

    the first meeting with a group of weak goblins or equal = a new game. New game and avoiding a battle with them in the future. I do not think this is what you wanted.

    One important thought we had in mind when designing the goblins is, that they should be viable End-Game opponents. Before we only had the Orcs who could more or less keep up with player progression.
    I know it is hard to think of goblins as enemies you meet on eye level, as they are mostly cannon fodder in other games. It is no shame to avoid Goblins for the first few fights (just as you would avoid orcs) and then start fighting them once you are stronger.

    I truly dont understand what keeps people from picking their fights according to the strength of their group. You have to play a few times until you learn whom you can fight or not.
    On top of that I sometimes wonder why many streamers decide to do a “blind playthrough” and then get wiped because they have no idea about what enemies they can fight at early levels…..

    The dog is almost useless

    I admit you have to be very careful when to unleash a dog. The Dog is not an additional battle brother, it just takes time to learn when to best use him.

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    #6103
    Agravaine
    Participant

    What I’d really like to know, has anyone gotten anything higher then a 2 when leveling up melee skill on lvl 1? Lvl 1 hedgeknight, tried about 30 times to roll for the melee skill, but it’s a 2 every single time. With the new traits, shouldn’t they have at least a chance to roll something decent? Also on higher levels, I know deserters are treacherous bastards, but they still should have some decent skill with a blade. Never rolled anything other then a 2 with them and hes lvl 7 now. Maybe change the chance of rolling anything other then a 2 from 0.000000000000000000000000000000000001% to something a tiny bit higher? In the previous patches you could get anyone and turn them insanely super duper skilled swordsmen, but if this keeps up even a lvl 11 swordsmaster is as skilled with a blade as a drunken peasant in the previous patch. Freezer and frying pan story.

    The current situation also means that there is almost no incentive to hire more expensive mercs, since for the more important things such as melee def and melee skill, they all roll a 2 regardless of level or background.

    #6104
    PsenBattle
    Keymaster

    it’s a 2 every single time.

    True. As stated in the patchnotes the numbers on Level up are not random anymore, they are fixed and depend on the stat you are rolling on. For melee skill its 2 for example, while leveling up ranged skill will always give you +3.

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    #6105
    Agravaine
    Participant

    it’s a 2 every single time.

    True. As stated in the patchnotes the numbers on Level up are not random anymore, they are fixed and depend on the stat you are rolling on. For melee skill its 2 for example, while leveling up ranged skill will always give you +3.

    “To address these points, we’ve changed how character stats are determined. Instead of rolling stats in the same range for all characters and then having the background add a flat amount on top, backgrounds now have their very own min and max values when rolling for each stat. What does that mean? Well, you can find characters skilled in ranged combat with all kinds of backgrounds, some even more skilled than the Hunter you’ve just hired – but the Hunter is guaranteed to know how to use a bow and will always come with a good level of ranged skill now. And while with a Hedge Knight you know you’ll be getting a beast of man, there’s always the chance that you’ll find that random exceptional Farmhand that is even stronger and more physically fit – the Hedge Knight is just guaranteed to be at a good level.” I must ‘ve completely misinterpreted this then.

    But what incentive is there then to hire anything other then the cheapest merc available if the stats you get for leveling are the same anyway? I didn’t notice any huge difference in base stats between the different mercs, they are rarely more then 10 apart. While I definitely agree that there had to be a change to how the stats worked, I don’t think fixing the stats you get for lvling up is the way to go, or at least not having the same value for every single background. A farmhand improving as much and as fast as an experienced fighter in handling a sword?

    #6108
    thenewromance
    Participant

    I am entering a bit late here, but let me answer a few things:

    Have the spawning rules for enemy groups been changed? I was obliterated within the second day. First encounter: the tutorial one, no problems. Second encounter: “challenging” or “deadly” (don’t remember exactly) bandits

    The second encounter should always be the abandoned graveyard right next to the city. It is visible from the start and intended to get your bros some more fighting experience and money.
    Challenging enemies are superior to your troupe, hence the name. If you fight an “even” group the chances of winning are considered to be 50/50. Hence the name “even”.
    Spawning rules have not been changed, excpet for werwolves, those are now smaller groups and shouldnt be a problem to deal with anymore.
    Enemy groups shouldnt move faster than you on the worldmap, especially if they have more men than you, so its possible to avoid encounters with superior enemies.

    Okay… the “challenging” bandits that got me in the end had one less man than me, but were way faster. The goblins were about the same speed as me (which means one maneuvering mistake and they’ve got you). However, I feel that enemy warbands don’t get as bogged down by terrain as the battle brothers. Is that true? It’s especially noticeable when entering a village surrounded by fields. The enemy has always been able to close in on me in those cases. Maybe I’m just seeing things. I don’t find it very easy to avoid enemies, except for when you’re able to just run down the road you came towards some fortified settlement. In the forests, I don’t manage to.

    #6109
    PsenBattle
    Keymaster

    I feel that enemy warbands don’t get as bogged down by terrain as the battle brothers. Is that true?

    I feel similar sometimes, but actually all warbands get bogged down at the same rate.
    The worldmap speed depends mostly on the size of the party. The bigger, the slower.
    The difficulty here is, that there are also small groups containing very strong units (wolfriders eg). We already made them slower than they should be on the worldmap, but maybe we have to adjust further.

    We actually had extensive internal discussions on that topic before, when we were talking about the notorious werewolves. They were very fast on the worldmap and on top of that deadly for new players. After some iteration we now found a good balance. Since then nobody is complaining about werewolves anymore :)

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    #6112
    Sarissofoi
    Participant

    Hello.
    First I want to thank you for a new update. The changes to economy and slower gear progression is what I suggest many times before and it make me happy that they work well.
    Also I like new increase in difficulty.
    The Goblin facton is great addition too. They definitely are dangerous and can be deadly. Their military feel like full profesional compared to orcs or humans.
    #If I can suggest split Goblin Skirmishers between Goblin Skirmishers(thrown weapons) and Goblin Footmen(pikes and spears). With main bulk of the bigger forces become the Footmen?
    #Also maybe addition of Goblin Marauders/Militia for lower tier neutral goblin camps to let lower level brothers enjoy squashing goblin menace.

    My biggest feel why many people feel that goblins are OP is that human militias are extremly weak.
    The village militias should be much better armed like they are prety wealthy farmers with their sons and workers so they should actualy afford or make some decent equipment.
    #Like basic militiamen should have some cap some decent light armour and spear+shield with sidearm combo. Retired soldiers and richer farmers(family heads) should have mail and better weapons. Plus some billhooks users and archers. They defend their lives lands and family so they should at last prepare for it.
    #Other thing is that the villages militia should be more static and smaller hostile forces pursuing player band shouldn’t be easily baited to fight with them.
    #City militia should be more professional. It is centre of commerce so they can craft better stuff and afford full paid garrison. Their garrison should be numerous and well armed but stationary. Small enemy parties should keep distance from city so player band can hide in safety.
    Decreasing aggresivness of enemy band would also reduce using city or village militias exploit.

    Overall I have great fun. Hope update for map and contracts will come soon. Also waiting for undead remake. Keep the good work.

    #6115
    mrbunnyban
    Participant

    Thanks for the correction, the nets/entangle do not reduce attack. Huh.

    One important thought we had in mind when designing the goblins is, that they should be viable End-Game opponents. Before we only had the Orcs who could more or less keep up with player progression.

    AHA! That is the problem, right there. Essentially, all those goblins we’ve been fighting are the equivalents of ORC WARRIORS, NOT YOUNG ORCS. So even though we fight smaller number of goblins and thus the rating thinks the goblins are weaker, the fact that we’re fighting end-game enemies which easily slaughter larger number of battle brothers. Consider making goblin rookies which players can fight more easily in the early game.

    Mind, I even changed up my strategy to fight them goblins at night. It helped, but I still got slaughtered, haha. That’s about right though, considering I’ve been picking fights with orc warrior equivalents instead of young orcs. I should have realised that sooner.

    #6122
    Jago
    Participant

    Thanks for the correction, the nets/entangle do not reduce attack. Huh.

    One important thought we had in mind when designing the goblins is, that they should be viable End-Game opponents. Before we only had the Orcs who could more or less keep up with player progression.

    AHA! That is the problem, right there. Essentially, all those goblins we’ve been fighting are the equivalents of ORC WARRIORS, NOT YOUNG ORCS. So even though we fight smaller number of goblins and thus the rating thinks the goblins are weaker, the fact that we’re fighting end-game enemies which easily slaughter larger number of battle brothers. Consider making goblin rookies which players can fight more easily in the early game.

    Mind, I even changed up my strategy to fight them goblins at night. It helped, but I still got slaughtered, haha. That’s about right though, considering I’ve been picking fights with orc warrior equivalents instead of young orcs. I should have realised that sooner.

    That, and the labeling. Even puny Goblin groups pose a serious threat.

    #6127
    PsenBattle
    Keymaster

    That, and the labeling. Even puny Goblin groups pose a serious threat.

    We will adress the Goblin labelling very soon, as well as some other changes. It’s the first workday today after releasing the Goblin Update, and we are on the case :)

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