Topic: Real Value of Ranged Brothers

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  • #4728
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    >> Advantage comes with numbers and quality. If enemy has more men with bows than you, you have to try to engage them in melee as fast as possible

    Mana: M-Mr. Tactician, what should we do! *panic* T-There is one enemy in front of us!!!
    Jaffai: Please call me Jaffai. The lone enemy has a bow with him, but we have 12 men with us. So we should rush the enemy.

    *The next day*

    Mana: M-M-Mr. Tactician, w-what should we do! *panic* T-There are 20 enemies in front of us!!!
    Jaffai: Ahem, Jaffai. The enemies have more men with bows than us, so we should engage them in melee as fast as possible.
    Mana: So we just rush the enemy no matter what happens!!? щ(ºДºщ)

    >> I know how to use them in the way that you cannot catch them. I would shoot you once and retreat to higher ground behind my melee.
    You can actively fall back to high grounds and let archers fire behind melee brothers. But can you imagine AI doing the same thing? Okay, if both you and AI are waiting for each other to come. Who do you think is going to win this war of patience?

    =====================================================

    >> If you go into a tough fight without the best equipment you can field, you’ll lose brothers.

    In tough fights where enemy has large numbers, you might have difficulty to support your brothers once the melee confrontation has started. This is especially tough for frontline brothers as they are facing current enemies, ranged attacks, and more enemies to come. They probably need to tough it out until an amount of enemies have died. So heavy armor is the easy and good way to keep them alive.

    >> I also use brothers as “holding” troops sometimes. By that I mean, I tie down 2-3 enemies with one brother, who just sits there shieldwalling every turn. With good melee defense, a shield, and heavy armor, he can last a long time while other brothers focus down other creatures, then come and smash the held troops at once.
    At early stage this tactic is a saver. Especially when your group has lower strength and numbers. Now I have sufficient firepower so I rarely use this anymore………………           O|¯|_ until something goes wrong again.

    =====================================================

    Also, is it a silly or troublesome idea to switch armor according to scout report? (when engaging bases or enemies that doesn’t pursue you)

    #4735
    Holy.Death
    Participant

    About at least 1/3? (I dunno the portion) of the time, you don’t start the battle with a lined-up or tidy formation. You might get surrounded and has scattered formation especially if you engage enemy in forest. This depends on your play style, some people always engage enemy on plains. I dislike battle in forest but most enemy bases are in forest.

    I didn’t have problems fighting in forest (or any terrain, to be honest). It can present difficulties, but if terrain is just too bad then I switch to a secondary weapon that allows to support melee brothers directly. Still, most of the time even the thickest forest wasn’t that bad as to completely prevent my ranged brothers from doing their part. Being scattered was rarely a problem too.

    In my experience, when you get surrounded or pursuing enemy archer with your archer, there is a chance your archer might get shot. In small scale battle, the enemy archer could miss you or you might dispatch him very quickly. But in large scale battle, there is a good chance for enemy archers to hit or wound your unit severely (if he has no ranged def or armor).

    I don’t let myself to be surrounded. Exactly because my archers more often than not thin down enemy ranks before they get close (or weaken them so much that melee brothers can finish the job), even when enemies have numerical superiority. Do not underestimate the ability to fire twice per turn. Also do not underestimate the power of a crossbow. Additionaly, I position my archers in a way to make it very hard to reach them and even if enemy reaches them (veteran orcs are the worst), then that’s why all my archers/crossbowmen wear a good armor on them. I mostly level their fatigue to be able to fire bow more often, but it helps them wear better armor as well.

    Wow wow just- wait, you’re actually right but that idea is extremely dangerous. I think most people will try their very best to keep everyone alive. Because if someone dies, all the experience gained will be wasted. Even he’s just a meatshield to you, you would rather him to be a veteran meatshield than just a rookie meatshield forever, right?

    Your point is…? Because what you’ve said is not even an argument.

    If 2 meatshields can do 2000+ dmg respectively in 3 rounds (shown in my previously posted image), they must be made of some highly poisonous or corrosive meat. Each meatshield deals 700 dmg in every round (without Rally perk). Don’t even try to calculate, your ranged brother can’t do this at all.

    I think you confuse meatshields (raw recruits) with someone else, because meatshields miss more often than they hit (very low base stats), so they are incapable of reaching a vast amount of damage in 3 rounds. Besides, bandits? I fight Orcs. Heavily armored too. Led by a Warboss. At that point bandits are nothing, so it doesn’t really impress me.

    Slap me- forget it. Slap my friends if I’m wrong. How long have you been playing this game? I think most people won’t say archers are the most powerful role in this game. Well, I also believe most people don’t give a damn to archers. So they might not discover the value hidden within archers.

    48 hours. I don’t really care what people will say or won’t. I am saying how it plays in my experience. If anything I’d say people are discouraged from leveling up archers, because they think chances to hit are too low and can hit their own guys, but I looked past these issues and found out that they hit quite often for a lot of damage and can dominate mid-game and still remain valuable in end-game.

    I recommend you to compare a crossbow and javelin. Crossbow for accuracy & firepower, while Bow for tactics (1 extra range means everything in battle). I’ve seen people mentioning the advantage of javelin is the ability to wield a shield. But when I look at the amount of Javelin’s ammo again, I bend slowly and cover my face with my palms.

    Ammo is not a problem. It’s stamina. And ranged accuracy. It takes a rare breed to be javelin user. However, I wouldn’t go as far as to say that javelins can replace bows or crossbows. Rather they’re to supplement brother’s capabilities by allowing him to hit from afar for a lot of damage in various situations.

    #4737
    Jaffai
    Participant

    My purpose wasnt to insult you in anyway. When I was using “you”, I didnt mean you as Manaseed but like “us”. So there is no reason to be offended.

    Its usually more rewarding to talk about the game balance if “you” think yourself commander for both sides. What if I do this, what are choices for the other army? And not, if I do this. AI will always do that.

    As I said, I think archers are fine atm. But scripting needs work. Im not saying it would be nice to have AI calculating every possible move and be almost imposible to beat but I wish it gave more challenge to player and it wouldnt be so easy to learn its patterns. But in theory it might be bad idea to script AI to be too good with ranged men. It could be frustrating to some people to play the game anymore.

    For example. The first battle. Other side has 4 poorly skilled melee guys and one archer. And other side has one swordmaster with heater shield, sword and leather armor. Which side is going to win the battle? Which ever side player is playing on. With swordmaster you can take high ground and just wait,use shieldwall and riposte to kill melee guys (as they will engage you) while AIs archer is badly positioned. If player is on other side just take high ground again and its easy win again.

    I did the earlier example in one of my games. I kicked founding members and just hired one swordmaster and first battle was easy win. Which should have been imposible to win.

    #4740
    Holy.Death
    Participant

    Its usually more rewarding to talk about the game balance if “you” think yourself commander for both sides. What if I do this, what are choices for the other army? And not, if I do this. AI will always do that.

    […]

    For example. The first battle. Other side has 4 poorly skilled melee guys and one archer. And other side has one swordmaster with heater shield, sword and leather armor. Which side is going to win the battle? Which ever side player is playing on. With swordmaster you can take high ground and just wait,use shieldwall and riposte to kill melee guys (as they will engage you) while AIs archer is badly positioned. If player is on other side just take high ground again and its easy win again.

    I am not so sure. There is random element – especially early on – that can make battle go various ways, outside other “certain” variables.

    If anything I’d like to see the AI try to shatter shields when they have numerical superiority. Because as of right now they tend to avoid shield splitting past a round shield type (unless they are Orcs, but even then it’s a very rare occurence). This should make scenarios like a lone warrior surrounded by half a dozen of zombies with axes more dramatic as shield will break and he’ll be overwhelmed at some point.

    #4742
    Rap
    Keymaster

    If anything I’d like to see the AI try to shatter shields when they have numerical superiority. Because as of right now they tend to avoid shield splitting past a round shield type (unless they are Orcs, but even then it’s a very rare occurence). This should make scenarios like a lone warrior surrounded by half a dozen of zombies with axes more dramatic as shield will break and he’ll be overwhelmed at some point.

    They actually already do that, but perhaps not by enough. The likelihood of going for the shield is increased by 1.25^n, with n being the number of allies surrounding the target, i.e. one ally adjacent increases the chance by 25%, two would increase it by 56%, and so on.

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    #4743
    GOD
    Participant

    Enemy axe-wielder not splintering shields is not how I experience it. I always have to be really cautious about putting up shields next to them, because they will resort to chopping it in pieces if they can. Doesn’t matter if they’re Undead, Human or Orcs, they all do it, especially if the merc is being surrounded. It’s basically a death-sentence at low-level.

    #4744
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    >> Do not underestimate the ability to fire twice per turn. Also do not underestimate the power of a crossbow.
    You gotta be kidding me, underestimate what? Crossbow is the backbone of ranged brothers. It’s even cooler if you manage to attack with Close Combat Archer perk (though I find it difficult). Fire twice per round(you mean round, right?) is so deadly, how would someone underestimate it? Who doesn’t wanna fire several times in a round?

    >> Additionaly, I position my archers in a way to make it very hard to reach them

    Please share your secret of success. My archers have same AP as melee enemies, so I can only delay their arrival as long as possible.

    >> I don’t let myself to be surrounded.
    Like how? When you begin the battle with enemies coming from all directions, you breakthrough against one direction so you won’t get surrounded?

    >>Your point is…? Because what you’ve said is not even an argument.
    I think you confuse meatshields (raw recruits) with someone else, because meatshields miss more often than they hit (very low base stats), so they are incapable of reaching a vast amount of damage in 3 rounds. Besides, bandits? I fight Orcs. Heavily armored too. Led by a Warboss. At that point bandits are nothing, so it doesn’t really impress me.

    Seriously? Seriously serious? Meatshields, I thought that’s the way you address melee brothers. You actually use melee brothers as pure meatshield!!? And you use them as expendables, just like provisions and medicines!!?

    You need someone to keep the enemy busy so your archers can keep firing, right? So you should keep your meatshields alive, and turn them into super meat- I mean, guardians. The stronger your guardians, the longer your archers can fire, so it aids your purpose.

    >> If anything I’d say people are discouraged from leveling up archers, because they think chances to hit are too low and can hit their own guys

    I think people are discouraged because ranged weapons deal noticeably lower damage than melee weapons, in terms of:
    1) damage/fatigue cost ==> crossbow is 2x (50/25) while greatsword is 8x (118/15)
    2) damage/ammo ==> crossbow provides 500 total dmg for each inventory slot (50 x 10 bolts)
    ==> greatsword provides 826 total dmg for each inventory slot (118 x 7 times before broken)
    The best part is, durability of melee weapon is not reduced when being used against body without armor
    The worst part is, unlike melee weapon, range weapon still consumes ammo when you miss the target
    3) the synergy with certain perk ==> I won’t tell what is this so you can explore the fun of the game yourself

    [*all calculations are simplified for illustration purpose]

    Well, it’s not that easy to hit your own guy (this is my subjective view, but I strongly believe this so I didn’t record the statistics) if you only have one ally around the target. I always fire if that ally has armor on him, otherwise I don’t have guts to fire even the hit chance is 90%.

    >> However, I wouldn’t go as far as to say that javelins can replace bows or crossbows.
    My tummy…. it hurts *still laughing*. When I said I recommend you to compare a crossbow and javelin, I don’t mean to compliment javelin. I was actually asking you to compare the most valuable ranged weapon and the worst ranged weapon.

    ================================================
    >> My purpose wasnt to insult you in anyway. When I was using “you”, I didnt mean you as Manaseed but like “us”. So there is no reason to be offended.
    O|¯|_ He doesn’t understand the joke.

    O|¯|_ He thinks I’m angry with him.

    O|¯|_ And he simply mix me up with everyone else. I would rather him to say I’m special.

    >> Im not saying it would be nice to have AI calculating every possible move and be almost imposible to beat but I wish it gave more challenge to player and it wouldnt be so easy to learn its patterns.
    I wish not every enemy group uses the same set of AI. It would be nice if there some coward bandits, clever bandits and violent bandits.

    >> But in theory it might be bad idea to script AI to be too good with ranged men. It could be frustrating to some people to play the game anymore.
    >> AIs archer is badly positioned. If player is on other side just take high ground again and its easy win again.

    Let’s simplify the example to 1 archer v.s. 1 archer. What should a clever ranged enemy do when I station my archer on high grounds? Should he come or should he wait? If he’s waiting, how long should he wait?

    #4745
    Holy.Death
    Participant

    Please share your secret of success. My archers have same AP as melee enemies, so I can only delay their arrival as long as possible.

    Put a melee brother between enemies and your archers.
    Zone of control alone will suffice to force enemy to go a long way around, to avoid getting caught in melee when your foes are trying to reach your archers. It means you don’t even need a thick line to defend an area (think of a spear-wall), allowing you to free some men to do something else than just “plugging the hole”.

    Like how? When you begin the battle with enemies coming from all directions, you breakthrough against one direction so you won’t get surrounded?

    I let them come.

    My archers start firing and either attack the vanguard with mutliple of my melee brothers or wait for them to come even closer and overwhelm certain individuals, while at the same time keeping in mind to have my spare men in positions to block possible approaches to my archers. It doesn’t always work (veteran orcs can just smash into your battleline, that’s why I place archers further away than usual), but it works 90% of the time. The point is to keep my archers firing. Melee brothers can either kill or survive, but for as long as archers can support them their job gets easier as enemies keep falling under the hail of arrows.

    Seriously? Seriously serious? Meatshields, I thought that’s the way you address melee brothers. You actually use melee brothers as pure meatshield!!? And you use them as expendables, just like provisions and medicines!!?

    Meatshields = raw recruits. Not all melee brothers. Raw recruits are expendable, because they don’t have perks and upgraded stats that my veteran brothers possess.

    You need someone to keep the enemy busy so your archers can keep firing, right? So you should keep your meatshields alive, and turn them into super meat- I mean, guardians. The stronger your guardians, the longer your archers can fire, so it aids your purpose.

    Who said I am not trying to keep them alive? I just don’t cry when they die. I am more concerned with life of my venerable brothers than I am with someone who is inexperienced and often useless for anything else than holding the line.

    My tummy…. it hurts *still laughing*. When I said I recommend you to compare a crossbow and javelin, I don’t mean to compliment javelin. I was actually asking you to compare the most valuable ranged weapon and the worst ranged weapon.

    And I said problem lies elsewhere than the ammo count. I find javelin useful as it can complement a melee brother’s capabilities. Provided he has enough stamina left to fight after throwing them. It lets you attack on the move.

    They actually already do that, but perhaps not by enough. The likelihood of going for the shield is increased by 1.25^n, with n being the number of allies surrounding the target, i.e. one ally adjacent increases the chance by 25%, two would increase it by 56%, and so on.

    I will keep an eye on that. They do nice job when it comes down to smaller shields so far. I will make notes how they behave when stronger shields enter the battle.

    #4746
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    >> Meatshields = raw recruits. Not all melee brothers. Raw recruits are expendable, because they don’t have perks and upgraded stats that my veteran brothers possess.
    Not sure if it’s just me. The idea of “expendable recruit” never come across my mind. I only choose the recruit that is likely to become best of the best, until they got bested or replaced by even better recruit.


    >> And I said problem lies elsewhere than the ammo count. I find javelin useful as it can complement a melee brother’s capabilities. Provided he has enough stamina left to fight after throwing them. It lets you attack on the move.

    Yes I definitely saw you mentioned that. But there might be certain perks which allow you to have more stamina. (so I didn’t say anything about that)
    Wouldn’t a crossbow be a better alternative to complement a melee brother’s capability, as it’s more deadly in most situations? Unless your focus is in raising the shield.

    #4747
    ManaSeed
    Participant


    Do you gaiz think this bush is tall enough to block the sight completely, when your height is +1?

    #4748
    Holy.Death
    Participant

    Do you gaiz think this bush is tall enough to block the sight completely, when your height is +1?

    Only when enemy is directly behind the bush.

    Yes I definitely saw you mentioned that. But there might be certain perks which allow you to have more stamina. (so I didn’t say anything about that) Wouldn’t a crossbow be a better alternative to complement a melee brother’s capability, as it’s more deadly in most situations? Unless your focus is in raising the shield.

    If you have to invest a lot of stamina to be able to throw and then fight in melee, then it shows how big investment it is for a weapon that isn’t ultimately great on its own. It’s useful, but such an investment for a side arm? The only redeeming side of such building up of your brother might be the fact that reducing stamina cost of armor will help your stamina overall and complements the javelin usage by itself…

    Shield makes it safer to be at the front lines, even more so if you improve defense generated by the shield and improve your personal defense stat. Orcs are the most relevant enemies here. Being caught without your shield (and potentially getting stunned be the charge, to make matters worse) can get ugly really fast. Other than that? It can be easily questioned. I feel javelins need some tweaking, but I guess I will have to try and get 5-6 battle brothers (not all, because I want some other specialists on my team) to use javelins and see how it goes.

    #4749
    AGiantPie
    Participant

    If you have to invest a lot of stamina to be able to throw and then fight in melee, then it shows how big investment it is for a weapon that isn’t ultimately great on its own. It’s useful, but such an investment for a side arm? The only redeeming side of such building up of your brother might be the fact that reducing stamina cost of armor will help your stamina overall and complements the javelin usage by itself…

    To me, stamina is the most important stat in the game, and it’s a stat that gets increased for everyone at every single level up. I rarely run out of stamina at max level without using perfect focus, unless the fight goes on for a very long time. All my melee brothers carry javelins, and most of them have the quick hands perk. Javelins do a huge amount of damage, and can often kill even armored opponents in one hit. They can also break shields. Most of my melee brothers get to throw at least one javelin before melee combat, sometimes they get to throw two. I find it to be quite effective.

    #4753
    Jaffai
    Participant

    Yes I think you are very very special guy Manaseed. /joke

    Sorry if I didnt find your jokes funny, maybe I have bad sense of humour not laughing when someone calling me stupid.

    If it was 1on1 and both sides are exactly same. I guess its a stale mate. Why risk your life for nothing. But if other party was sitting on treasure or something I guess you could try to go against odds if reward is high enough.

    #4758
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    >> Sorry if I didnt find your jokes funny, maybe I have bad sense of humour not laughing when someone calling me stupid.
    Usually…. I never forgive anyone who says my jokes are not funny (though they actually meant for illustration purpose, rather than entertainment).

    Well, I’m okay with this since you’ve apolo- wait, that’s not the main point. There is something really strange about this….

    …..!

    Who’s lying? (・∧‐)ゞ

    You or my control+F search function? He says he can’t find the term stupid. Lying is no joking matter. We need to clear this up immediately.

    Wait, the subtle difference between lying and joking…. nvm.


    >> If it was 1on1 and both sides are exactly same. I guess its a stale mate.

    So what happens in this stalemate? Wait forever, or leave the battle?

    We need clever AI to give extra challenge/fun/trouble to players, right? In this scenario, what is the most advantageous/clever action for you if the AI? Assuming both sides are sitting on treasures with equal value.

    >> Yes I think you are very very special guy Manaseed. /joke
    。゚(゚ノД`゚)゚。 I was so happy until………. I saw the final word.

    #4761
    Holy.Death
    Participant

    I think the most advantageous is taking defensive position and letting – or forcing – enemy to come to you. Because archers. Without them on your side and with more powerful ranged enemies it would be the other way around. So far only skeleton archers can be trouble if they are well protected (although crossbows deal nice damage to them), but they have hard time getting through your armor. What about skeleton crossbowmen? This should make players think twice about disregarding ranged defense and remaining on the defensive side of the battle. Orcs can be somewhat OK without ranged due to their heavy armor, shields and ability to wedge into your formation and wreck havoc with massive damage.

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