Topic: Real Value of Ranged Brothers

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  • #4763
    Jaffai
    Participant

    Know yourself and know your enemy and you will never be defeated.

    Stalemate means you leave the field. I dont really understand how would you end up in that situation even.

    Why would you end up on battlefield if neither of sides have nothing to gain?

    As I told you already the problem with archers is with AI. They are always on attacking side even if they have more archers than you and they are sitting on treasure you want to take.

    When they are always attacking you get enormous advantage with high ground. Even if they have 10 archers and you dont have any. Their melee will engage you. And their archers are in poor positions to support their melee fighters. After you wipe melee enemies out you can go after archers. They shouldnt engage your melee with their melee but protect their archers and force you to attack or just leave the field.

    Im repeating myself but I think you missed my point. If you have any more questions plz be free to ask them.

    #4769
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    >> What about skeleton crossbowmen?
    I’ve been wondering why no ranged enemy has crossbow. Maybe because it would be too deadly due to its high accuracy and armor damage? Also, due to high AP cost for reloading crossbow, it is harder for ranged enemy to “hit and run”. When you approach enemy archer as you advance to engage melee enemy, the enemy archer will usually fall back several steps so you can’t catch him.


    >> So far only skeleton archers can be trouble if they are well protected (although crossbows deal nice damage to them)

    Are you sure crossbow can deal nice damage to skeleton archer? (⊙_☉) Why does my memory say different things? If I recall correctly, the last time I fired a projectile against skeleton, I was stunned for 3 seconds then trying to measure enemy’s missing hp with ruler. Then I stopped and let out of sigh. “Let it go~~~ Let it go~~~~~”   ヾ( ๑´д`๑)ツ

    =============================
    >> I think the most advantageous is taking defensive position and letting – or forcing – enemy to come to you. Because archers.

    >> As I told you already the problem with archers is with AI. They are always on attacking side even if they have more archers than you and they are sitting on treasure you want to take.

    Yes the core subject is about waiting for enemies on high ground.

    WAITING.

    What’s the most important thing in waiting? High player intelligence? High artificial intelligence? Or…… infinite artificial patience?

    If AI archers can actually wait, our ranged brothers can never wait for enemy because they will never come.

    While this can be less fun to some players, it also greatly weakens the ability of our ranged brothers, though they can go offensive against enemy archer on high ground.

    Also, did you realize enemy archers have infinite ammo? (if I remember correctly)

    P.S.
    >> Im repeating myself but I think you missed my point.
    Lol, same here. I felt like I’ve typed the same sentence 3 times but somehow you managed to miss it within wall of text. But no big deal though.

    #4770
    Holy.Death
    Participant

    Are you sure crossbow can deal nice damage to skeleton archer? (⊙_☉) Why does my memory say different things? If I recall correctly, the last time I fired a projectile against skeleton, I was stunned for 3 seconds then trying to measure enemy’s missing hp with ruler. Then I stopped and let out of sigh. “Let it go~~~ Let it go~~~~~”   ヾ( ๑´д`๑)ツ

    I checked this again and you’re correct. Damage is terrible.

    Also, did you realize enemy archers have infinite ammo? (if I remember correctly)

    The AI is subject to same rules as a player. If you take quivers from the ground or loot them after battle, you should see numbers diminished. I do. I never saw enemy archer to run out of ammo, because I never let them live long enough to spend it all on my brothers.

    I’ve been wondering why no ranged enemy has crossbow. Maybe because it would be too deadly due to its high accuracy and armor damage? Also, due to high AP cost for reloading crossbow, it is harder for ranged enemy to “hit and run”. When you approach enemy archer as you advance to engage melee enemy, the enemy archer will usually fall back several steps so you can’t catch him.

    Firing a crossbow takes only 2 AP, so you can fire and move [away]. You’ll have to sacrifice next turn to reload, but you’ll be able to fire instantly and at that point you should be in safer spot than where you begun.

    Game has ranged defense stats and kite shields, they both help reduce enemy accuracy (especially if you add shieldwall on top of that). The only problem I can see it getting through enemy lines to get to crossbowmen, but I think it’s a good thing as it’d make you come up with ways of being active, rather than reactive. Unless terrain is good for hiding (swamps, bushes, trees, etc.).

    #4775
    Agravaine
    Participant

    I got rid of all of them after 25 days. As soon as I start fighting orcs, especially orc holds with a lot of warriors, they are just utterly useless and I’m better of getting a few extra melee damage dealers. Preferred with axes so I can smash those pesky shields. If you form a circle shieldwall with about 2-3 billhooks in the centre of it and you can take a massive amount of orcs on and not lose anyone.

    #4782
    Holy.Death
    Participant

    I think I’ve played enough to say that I was correct about enemies not trying to break shields once you get heather shields. Before that point they don’t hesitate splitting round shields left and right (which is good). I was fighting young orcs, veterans orcs and fallen heroes. No attempts were made against shields, just regular attacks.

    #4783
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    Before I begin to discuss ranged brothers, I drop two images here to convince you that melee brothers are not merely shields for range brothers.


    In second image, a melee brother can deal 1000 dmg per round. So it’s time for you to rely more on melee brothers, this will also help you understand the role of range brothers better.
    ==========================================================
    >> The AI is subject to same rules as a player. If you take quivers from the ground or loot them after battle, you should see numbers diminished. I do. I never saw enemy archer to run out of ammo, because I never let them live long enough to spend it all on my brothers.
    If I remember correctly, an enemy archer has fired more than 40 arrows. Also, all enemy archers have a melee weapon right? So they can’t be carrying 50 arrows to enable them for firing 40+ arrows. This is why I suspect they have unlimited ammo. And it is especially disadvantageous if your team uses defensive styles and defensive perks. You can’t hold out until enemy runs out of arrow, because they have infinite ammo.

    Also, enemy archer spends AP to switch weapons. Thus they should have no Quick Hands. But I’ve never seen them switching the empty quivers. Another reason to suspect about the infinite ammo.

    >> Firing a crossbow takes only 2 AP, so you can fire and move [away]. You’ll have to sacrifice next turn to reload, but you’ll be able to fire instantly and at that point you should be in safer spot than where you begun.
    There’s no problem if users are players as we know how to plan our moves. But I think it will be less efficient for ranged enemy to use this, as their AI rule dictates them to keep a specific distance from us. In conjunction with high reload AP (7 AP), AI archer might have less mobility/offense if they use crossbow this way. Also, if they move to a tile with height difference (3AP), they can’t reload this round. I doubt AI archer can keep all these stuff in mind.
    ==========================================================
    >>> Hybrid Brothers (melee+range skill) <<<
    I’m oblivious to how much time I spent in Orc’s Fitness Center. But I think I deserved a lifetime membership card. One day, I finally managed to level up my hybrid brothers to lv11. All the pain and hardship to accumulate 9500 exp. You might I think I’m exaggerating a little or something, but I tell you what………… IT’S OVER 9000!!!! щ(ºДºщ) MY EXP!!!! щ(ºДºщ)

    Ughh…. look at my ugly banner. I really wish devs would allow us to change our group name and banner. If I know I would spent this much time in this experimental gameplay, I would have spend some time to choose the name and banner, rather than just going with default ones. I’m glad the new large patch might wipe out all old & incompatible saves so I have an excuse to start new game in future.

    Well, it’s almost 1 year anniversary for my merc band! So I decided to challenge a challenging enemy. But I was too full of myself….. THEN TRAGEDY HAPPENED.

    I was unable to kill the last enemy at end of 2nd round….. WHYYYYY!!!????? O|¯|_ Why does this happen on my 1 year anniversary commemoration battle?

    Well, at least 500 exp in 2.1 rounds is something memorable for my 1 year anniversary commemoration battle.
    Incidentally, I call my hybrid brothers “Avengers”, as vengeance doesn’t require care or protection for personal safety.

    Hybrid brothers have most flexibility in their offense, as they can choose between melee and range attacks. Unlike ranged or melee brothers, there’s nothing that limits hybrid brother from delivering death to an enemy. This is especially deadly against enemy units with special effect, which are powerful but fragile. For example, ghost & necromancer. Your crossbow can kill necromancer in one hit.

    Not sure if I’m dreaming, Not long ago, ghost used AoE(area of effect) attack like wail or scream. And my brother with 80 resolve is fleeing instantly, though his morale should be steady or confident. Range weapon is a good idea for these kinds of troublesome enemies as you can take them out from a distance. Hybrid brothers should have less ammo as they carry inventory of both range and melee brothers. So all ammo of hybrid brothers should be spent on special enemies, or range enemies.

    I would say ranged brothers are Defensive Archers, while hybrid brothers are Offensive Archers. Ranged brothers have to rely on melee brothers to tank the enemy, or wait for enemy to come. Also, ranged brother is always at the rear. Therefore, ranged brothers’ attack range is more limited. With prowess to combat melee enemies, hybrid brothers are the frontiers in battlefield. This enables them to shoot an arrow at the horizon.

    If offense capability ranks from F to SS, I would say my team is somewhere around rank S. Most of my brothers are with summer wear, so it’s not surprising. But it’s a little tiring to play with this team setup, as you always need to think and calculate your steps. It’s time for me to put on some armor to see if things will get easier, at the expense of prolonged battle.

    P.S.
    Anyone else find the strength indicator against enemy on world map is not so accurate? It might label weaker enemy as strong and vice versa. Yes I know the strength of enemy is heavily affected by the weakness of your team setup, but I still find the strength indicator less reliable.

    #4784
    Holy.Death
    Participant

    Before I begin to discuss ranged brothers, I drop two images here to convince you that melee brothers are not merely shields for range brothers. […] In second image, a melee brother can deal 1000 dmg per round. So it’s time for you to rely more on melee brothers, this will also help you understand the role of range brothers better.

    Are we talking about a fully leveled up brother? If yes, then you don’t have to convince anyone that an experienced melee brother is extremely useful. I only call melee brothers shields for range brothers when they can’t contribute to combat on their early levels (I give them spear and shield, to boost their base accuracy and make them harder to be hit).

    By the way, how is taunt talent working? Does it forces enemy to attack the taunting brother only when enemies can reach him (move and/or attack)? Or does it make enemies to go on all out attack against any target close by (which can be useful if you don’t want enemies to shieldwall after an attack)? Does it work on the undead? I couldn’t really tell…

    Ughh…. look at my ugly banner. I really wish devs would allow us to change our group name and banner. If I know I would spent this much time in this experimental gameplay, I would have spend some time to choose the name and banner, rather than just going with default ones. I’m glad the new large patch might wipe out all old & incompatible saves so I have an excuse to start new game in future.

    Here is an excellent discussion about banners.

    #4802
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    >> Here is an excellent discussion about banners.
    Nice stuff. Thanks a bunch m(_ _)m
    Only if we have time machine…. No I mustn’t be excited or reality will strike again.

    >> By the way, how is taunt talent working?
    Its advantage…….. an insanely large radius of effect (its diameter probably has 10 tiles or more).

    When every brother has an unspent perk point, let all your brothers learn Taunt simultaneously. Then overwrite all save files.

    P.S.
    By the way, I forgot to say its disadvantage. Most people here claimed it has almost no effect.

    #4803
    Jaffai
    Participant

    I had 2 guys standing on even ground. Other used taunt and shieldwall and other just skipped turn. Orc attacked the one who didnt use shieldwall. So yes, taunt is useless as far as I know.

    #4804
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    There are 2 guys standing on ground. The first guy slapped a stranger and paid one million as compensation and other guy just do nothing. The stranger prefers the first guy. So yes, slapping another’s face makes the person prefer you as far as I know.

    Please don’t get me wrong or hate me. I just find this a little funny so I can’t help myself (*≧▽≦)ノシ))

    Of course I know you’re trying to contribute your experience to make the community better.

    In case you still get the wrong idea, I apologize in advance m(_ _)m

    #4805
    AGiantPie
    Participant

    I had 2 guys standing on even ground. Other used taunt and shieldwall and other just skipped turn. Orc attacked the one who didnt use shieldwall. So yes, taunt is useless as far as I know.

    I believe taunt just makes nearby enemies attack, but does not force them to attack a specific person. This is useful if you want to get through shields, but since we can split shields, it’s not overly useful imo.

    #4809
    Holy.Death
    Participant

    It doesn’t make attack a specific person? I thought that maybe some enemies couldn’t attack the taunter and that’s why they simply attacked whoever they were stuck in combat with, but if it doesn’t even matter if they can reach the taunter or not (when they can), then it’s really useless… I was thinking about making real shield brothers (focus on melee defense, perks into armor and shield, etc.) but without taunting making dedicated shield brothers (whose only purpose would be to gather attention of the enemy; for example to let ranged brothers to their work in peace) is rather pointless.

    #4810
    Rap
    Keymaster

    Taunt makes all opponents more likely to attack the one individual using the taunt skill.

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    #4813
    ManaSeed
    Participant

    We need an enthusiast to do this experiment:

    1) backup your save or make a new save slot

    2) Find a bandit group, kill all but keep one melee bandit. Then retreat from battle.

    3) Kick all brothers but keep 2 brothers with similar stats, which also have at least one unspent perk point respectively. Make them wear same equipment and learn Taunt.

    4) Save the game. Surround the melee bandit with 2 brothers. Make sure they have same distance with each other. Either brother uses Taunt and see the result.

    5) Run this simulation several times. Either brother use shieldwall or wear heavier armor to see if their disinterest effect outweigh the attraction effect of Taunt.

    WELL, that’s what I wanted to say….. but I’ve done this experiment myself. Because Jaffai’s experience is hinting me a hypothesis, I wanna find out if it’s true.

    Result:
    1) you probably need high resolve for this perk to have noticeable effect ==> the 2 brothers in experiment have 100 resolve respectively (probably the highest you can get, Adventurous Noble + Fearless Trait + 30 resolve stats growth). If I remember correctly, I’ve tried Taunt with 50 resolve but it has almost no effect at all. But at that time I wasn’t performing experiment so I didn’t pay much attention to the details.

    2) its effect is probably very small (even at 100 resolve) ==> when two brothers with similar stats & equipment have equal distance with enemy, the enemy will always attack the Taunting brother. But when a brother uses shieldwall, enemy will always choose another brother even if the former brother uses Taunt. The effect of Taunt if probably small and can be easily outweighed by other factors.

    P.S.
    My experiment results might be not very accurate as I didn’t run the simulation more than 7~8 times, because I’ve no faith in this perk at all. I hope this helps anyone who still believes in this perk in some way.

    #4877
    Invictus73
    Participant

    Pros
    ==> provides low to moderate support, especially to dispatch targets with almost no hp, or light armor targets with immediate/high threats.
    ==> their real value are only shown when:
    1) high grounds. One step higher provides more accuracy than one step closer.
    2) terrains that requires enemy to take extra steps to get to you.
    3) swamp terrain which greatly slows down enemy.
    4) unarmored or light armor enemies, and enemies without shield.
    ==================================================

    I initially started with zero ranged units after reading your post (I looked over the ‘net for game advice before I started to play), as well as Duungarm’s excellent Steel Cohort Guide on Steam. Since I do not like ranged units in general whether in TBS or RPG (too fragile mainly and thus requires too much babysitting). After intensive playtesting, however, I have changed my mind and incorporate them in small numbers (two, to be precise).

    Now you’ve provided a good beginner’s list of when and why ranged units are useful, but your list is hardly exhaustive. Personally, the main reason is to counter ranged units. On the one hand, I run quite a few melees with low armor and/or no shield (six, to be exact, two Nimble Swordmaster riposte bots, two Nimble Captains, and two offensive melees who will ideally take out their two handers ASAP), so they will get ripped if they get focus fired. So to protect them, I have to hunt out the enemy archers first. On the other hand, as I’ve complained elsewhere, hit and run (mostly run) archers are annoying, especially during nights or on bad terrain, so I need my own ranged to deal with them quickly in mop up situations.

    In addition, massed Perfect Focus archer batteries can be frightening if correctly used, even against heavy Orc formations. Archers with Perfect Focus can easily get four Aimed Shots off per turn with captain support, and if you properly pin your opponents with melee roadblocks (especially Nimble characters that fear no melee and can solo an entire melee army), then you can sit back and eliminate your opponents in a few turns. Even if you bring just two archers like I do, the initial volleys can soften up the enemy to the degree where your heavy melees can frequently one or two shot wounded units.

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