Topic: Real Value of Ranged Brothers

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  • #4689
    ManaSeedManaSeed
    Participant

    I felt like I’ve played 50% of the game content and I have a question to be answered.

    Q: What is the value of having ranged units in your team?

    In my opinion they are definitely not weak, but I can’t find a good reason to keep them on my team. I’m tempted to replace them with other roles. I hope someone can answer my question, especially someone with a lot of experience with ranged brothers m(_ _)m

    You gaiz can do it like debate style or something, I just wanna know the real value of ranged units. The following is what I’ve understood about ranged brothers.
    ==================================================
    Cons
    ==> far lower damage output compared to your melee unit, you can easily see melee brothers taking down enemies or wearing off their armor while ranged brothers perform such feats with far lower frequency

    ==> the lower damage output is resulted by low accuracy (even with 80 range skill), especially when:
           1) enemy has shields
           2) blocked line of sight ==> 2a) when melee enemy confronts your melee brother
                         ==> 2b) when enemy stands together. You have a chance to hit adjacent enemies but this doesn’t
                                justify the lowered accuracy as you have harder time to take down the specific target
                         ==> 2c) this is actually a more serious problem than blocked line of sight….. we call it “forest”. With this amount of                                            obstacles, you can rarely find good opportunity to perform effective ranged attacks

    ==> inability to defeat heavy armor enemies (the common example is Orc Warrior), and practically useless in a fight against skeletons. The amount of dead brother at beginning of a fight against skeletons is equal to the amount of your ranged brothers as they’re not going to do anything in this battle.

    ==> As your ranged brothers might not increase melee defense or melee skill, they are easy prey for withered vampires. Several withered vampires may cause inevitable death to your light armored ranged brothers before you could even spot them or protect your brothers. This phenomenon has a good chance to occur in forest.

    ==================================================
    Pros
    ==> provides low to moderate support, especially to dispatch targets with almost no hp, or light armor targets with immediate/high threats.
    ==> their real value are only shown when:
    1) high grounds. One step higher provides more accuracy than one step closer.
    2) terrains that requires enemy to take extra steps to get to you.
    3) swamp terrain which greatly slows down enemy.
    4) unarmored or light armor enemies, and enemies without shield.
    ==================================================

    #4693
    SkySky
    Participant

    Mostly true. I have always 2 archers as a minimum. One of them is the commander-rally man with armor penetration-tohit chance from offense, having sidestep to escape enemy zones, vampires do not scare him at all. The other one is the high initiative high fatigue no armor glasscannon with focus fire and frenzy. He can kill up to 5 enemies in the very first turn if lucky, averages around 3. He is not afraid of anyone either. All who come in close are clubbed to death with focus instantly, be that a mere bandit a werewolf or a vampire. The commander one having rally means I can freely move around him and pay less attention to fatigue of others while his 2 shots are worth considerably less than the rally horn. They both don’t like shields, but have the armor damage skill so only the real hard enemies are a moderate problem as orc warriors or leaders they go down in 5-7 turns. With skeletons their only use is to shot down any non skeletal enemy and destroy the armor of fallen ones. The other 1-2 archers are situational, trying new skill setups and they are the ones who die usually. They are the bait for ghouls vamps wolves etc. With medium armor and shields.

    When the enemy clusters up is a want to scenario after the one when you have the higher ground. You don’t have to hit, just aim in the middle and some will get it anyway. The shielded ones are harder at least at start or without the offense tohit skill. With it the secound one is most of the time a garanteed hit. With a good skill setup your archer can be a mobile unit flanking and moving around shoting between your lines. This aspect is my favorite, I like the assaulting fast moving melee aswell.

    The role of the archers deminishes with time, at the start they are a very powerful ranged unit when enemy has no armor and your guys are squishy sacrafices. They save a lot of brothers and win battles that would be lost otherwise. At mid without a concrete role they start to lose their value rapidly. They can’t penetrate shields or strong armor. At late they are 1-2 shoting an enemy of the weaker type. They are great against ghouls and wolves. I try to use them to snipe the enemy range units or fleeing ones so I do not have to case em for an other 10 minutes. For now.

    It is quite satisfying when you start off in row and explode into movement, intercepting incoming enemies with your line fighters and surround them with archers and light assaults. It is not an easy task but satisfying as whatever you like the fourth most.

    #4695
    ManaSeedManaSeed
    Participant

    >> One of them is the commander-rally man with armor penetration-tohit chance from offense, having sidestep to escape enemy zones, vampires do not scare him at all.
    What’s “penetration-tohit chance from offense”? I assume it’s a perk from offense category but I can’t tell which. I believe you mean Footwork with “Having sidestep to escape enemy zones”, right? It’s understandable that we don’t remember perk names that well (especially when you’re playing several games with a lot of skill names), so I’m just asking for clarification purpose.

    ================================================

    >> The other one is the high initiative high fatigue no armor glasscannon with focus fire and frenzy.
    I assume focus fire is Perfect Focus, so what is frenzy? It can’t be Killing Frenzy since you’ve chosen Perfect Focus. Is it Berserk?

    ================================================
    One vampire is no big threat. But when there are three of them, they can easily insta-kill my tunic archers with no melee defense. Especially in forest with a lot of obstacles, they suddenly appeared by teleportation and group attack my archer. He died in first round without a chance to fight back. I can take special measurements to prevent this, either by equipping some armor or group my brothers together there’s no space for vampire to teleport. But there are no other enemies which can attack my units beyond my expectation like this, so I assume this as a great weakness of my archers.
    ================================================

    >> He is not afraid of anyone either. All who come in close are clubbed to death with focus instantly, be that a mere bandit a werewolf or a vampire.

    What is the stats growth prioritization of your archers? Do you increase melee skill? What is your archer’s melee weapon?

    ================================================

    >> so only the real hard enemies are a moderate problem

    And the real hard enemies are only a minor problem to melee brothers. So I consider this a factor to keep a melee brother rather than a ranged brother.
    ================================================
    >> They are the bait for ghouls vamps wolves etc. With medium armor and shields.
    Melee brothers can be bait too if they have low armor, right? Since a bait’s role is to lure enemy towards him, melee brothers should be a better bait than ranged brothers because the latter have low melee prowess.

    ================================================

    >> When the enemy clusters up is a want to scenario after the one when you have the higher ground. You don’t have to hit, just aim in the middle and some will get it anyway.
    I don’t want any enemy to get hit, I want a specific enemy to get hit. Killing enemy one by one will “spread the fear” faster, and it enables you to kill even more enemies. It is more ideal than spreading damage evenly to enemies. This is also a core tactic to turn the tide of battle, I think.
    ================================================
    >> start off in row and explode into movement, intercepting incoming enemies with your line fighters and surround them with archers
    I never try to flank enemies with archers. The following are my reasons and imaginary results.

    Surrounding enemies with archers from left(up) or right(bottom) actually scatters your formation. This is not efficient for Rally the Troops. Furthermore, your flanking archers are more vulnerable to attacks as they become further away from the center. This is also not efficient for your melee brothers as enemy are more dispersed as a result of distraction caused by your flanking archers.
    ================================================

    >> The role of the archers deminishes with time
    Now I’m only discussing this part for pure fun. I actually think the opposite. Archers are horrible at early game as they have amazing low accuracy. There are so many times I want to throw away the arrows and switch the bow with a spear. At later stage, my archers are far more accurate. With the help of Rally, they are quite good against light armor or unarmored enemies.

    Here comes the serious part. No matter how much the archers have improved, melee units have always improved more. This makes me question the value of archers. Ranged brothers and melee brothers do perform different functions. HOWEVER! Melee brothers can be close substitute or slightly better substitute to ranged brothers. This is what I suspect or fear.
    ================================================

    I understand your general opinion is same with mine. But we have slightly different experiences regarding archers so I’m extending the discussion and asking questions to clear things up.

    P.S.
    Almost forgot to mention about Ranged Brother’s bane, Skeleton Archer. How can someone perform ranged attack while being resistant to it? (My rational accepts the logic but my sentiment doesn’t accept it, it’s like a bit like cheating)

    Can you imagine what happens if Orc Warrior is resistant to melee attacks? I can already see the frowning face of melee brothers.

    #4696
    Holy.DeathHoly.Death
    Participant

    In my experience the ranged brothers are the most powerful ones, especially when they are experienced and the group is fighting against lightly armored enemies. They can kill many before they even reach the front lines. After that they can switch to billhooks or other distance weapons to help out in melee combat. They are less efficient against armored enemies, but with crossbows they can help out a lot, so they stay relevant even in late game.

    In short – they range from being the most important members of the group to being useful enough to not consider not having them. Melee brothers range from being near useless meatshields to being valuable members, but not to that extent and they are always taking higher risk when in combat (so you’re much more likely to lose them).

    #4701
    ManaSeedManaSeed
    Participant

    >> After that they can switch to billhooks or other distance weapons to help out in melee combat. They are less efficient against armored enemies, but with crossbows they can help out a lot, so they stay relevant even in late game.
    Why everyone is suggesting my ranged brothers to use melee weapons? Just what stats have you increased for your archers!? щ(ºДºщ)

    Hmmm….
    Out of 3 stats growth, range skill and max fatigue is a must, so the remaining stat left for archers is probably a choice between defense (ranged/melee def) and melee skill. Archers are ranged units so they don’t need melee def, but they probably need ranged def as means to fight enemy archers or protect themselves from enemy archers. You can choose melee skill and wear armor instead. I never try the latter style before, I always have a misconception about hybrid brother serves less purpose than melee and ranged brother. I think it’s time I put down my biased views and give hybrid brother a try.
    =======================================================
    I assume all ranged brothers are damage dealers. If you have a ranged brother with Rally, you won’t call him archer. I have a brother like this and he never fire an arrow/bolt, and rarely moves at all. All he does is rally.
    =======================================================
    >> In short – they range from being the most important members of the group to being useful enough to not consider not having them. Melee brothers range from being near useless meatshields to being valuable members, but not to that extent and they are always taking higher risk when in combat (so you’re much more likely to lose them).
    Can you fire arrow without meatshields to protect you!? щ(ºДºщ) (Geez, kids these days just take meatshields for granted)
    When enemy comes in front of you, can you still fire arrow or reload? (you will exhaust all pre-loaded crossbows in your belt inventory in a second) For this reason, I think melee brother is actually INEVITABLE member for any team.

    Also, I suspect you can win various fights with pure melee team but strongly doubt you can win several fights with pure ranged team.
    =======================================================
    To further study relationship between melee and ranged brothers, let’s take a look at their battle results.


    The two images above was when I fought some orc youngs, warriors, berserkers (they are 2 different enemy factions, but not two attempts on same enemy group). I didn’t bother to fire an arrow with ranged brother because I know it’s a sure win. The assassins are melee brothers, and those with level up sign are just filler brothers until I’ve decided what to do with them.



    The two images above was when I raided bases with 3 bandits leaders (they are 2 different enemy factions, but not two attempts on same enemy group). At this point of time I finally have rally brothers. Rally greatly enhances the potential of my archers, I’ve never face the problem of running out of ammo until I have two Rally brothers. I start the fight being surrounded by enemy archers in circle or pincer. 3 bandit leaders didn’t make me frown a tiny bit, but the enemy archers surrounded me are really disturbing and a real threat. The furies are ranged brothers, they are dealing moderate damage to light armor enemies(bandits), because there are melee brothers who tank for them. Now I’m thinking…… would it be even better if I switch all ranged brothers to melee brothers? Still, I have to try the hybrid brothers first.

    P.S.
    You can’t mess around when being surrounded by enemy archers, especially if you have 4 filler brothers.
    Also, please pardon my seemingly rude attitude despite I’m the one who asks for guidance and discussion m(_ _)m
    And I still welcome all input regarding ranged brothers m(_ _)m

    On a less relevant note, I found out it is very useful to screenshot your battle results, if you want to perform team analysis. You can gradually fine tune your team, making everyone productive and spread damage taken evenly among brothers.

    #4702
    AGiantPieAGiantPie
    Participant

    I have to agree. Based on my experiences so far, it seems like ranged brothers are just not that potent, especially early game. They can be used, and they can be used well, but they’re by no means a necessity. In many cases, it’s simply easier to specialize in melee brothers only. Ranged brothers take a lot of manpower, weapon specialization, and perk investment to become viable.

    #4712
    Holy.DeathHoly.Death
    Participant

    Why everyone is suggesting my ranged brothers to use melee weapons? Just what stats have you increased for your archers!? щ(ºДºщ)

    Fatigue (to fire a bow and wear better armor), Ranged Attack (to be able to hit) and Melee Attack (to be able to hit if forced into melee). Since I don’t need my archers to be in the front row I don’t need Melee Defense and Ranged Defense is not really needed when your archers can win the contest with enemy archers (the only exception being skeleton archers) by killing them first. There are no real ranged threats in the game so far.

    Can you fire arrow without meatshields to protect you!? щ(ºДºщ)

    My point is – if my brother can’t hit the wide side of a barn he’s a meatshield. His only purpose is to occupy enemies while archers do their job. If he dies I can always hire another one who will be capable of doing this bare minimum.

    When enemy comes in front of you, can you still fire arrow or reload? (you will exhaust all pre-loaded crossbows in your belt inventory in a second) For this reason, I think melee brother is actually INEVITABLE member for any team.

    They can still be classified as meatshields before they reach the ranks of valuable members of the team. Archers start as near useless to become the most powerful and end up still being useful or very useful. Having 2 archers bring bigger benefits – in my opinion – than not having them.

    #4714
    ManaSeedManaSeed
    Participant

    >> Since I don’t need my archers to be in the front row
    About at least 1/3? (I dunno the portion) of the time, you don’t start the battle with a lined-up or tidy formation. You might get surrounded and has scattered formation especially if you engage enemy in forest. This depends on your play style, some people always engage enemy on plains. I dislike battle in forest but most enemy bases are in forest.

    >> I don’t need Melee Defense and Ranged Defense is not really needed when your archers can win the contest with enemy archer
    In my experience, when you get surrounded or pursuing enemy archer with your archer, there is a chance your archer might get shot. In small scale battle, the enemy archer could miss you or you might dispatch him very quickly. But in large scale battle, there is a good chance for enemy archers to hit or wound your unit severely (if he has no ranged def or armor).

    >> If he dies I can always hire another one who will be capable of doing this bare minimum.

    Wow wow just- wait, you’re actually right but that idea is extremely dangerous. I think most people will try their very best to keep everyone alive. Because if someone dies, all the experience gained will be wasted. Even he’s just a meatshield to you, you would rather him to be a veteran meatshield than just a rookie meatshield forever, right?


    >> My point is – if my brother can’t hit the wide side of a barn he’s a meatshield. His only purpose is to occupy enemies while archers do their job.

    If 2 meatshields can do 2000+ dmg respectively in 3 rounds (shown in my previously posted image), they must be made of some highly poisonous or corrosive meat. Each meatshield deals 700 dmg in every round (without Rally perk). Don’t even try to calculate, your ranged brother can’t do this at all.

    However, melee brother can’t do something like this (this is where I agree with you).

    You don’t have to figure out what is happening. I just come up with the perfect name for this image.

    “1 second after the game has started.”

    That lucky guy, if wasn’t the bush blocking my sight completely, he was dead.

    In case you’re wondering, there are only 3 ranged brothers in battle. The two brothers at second row are Rally brothers, I gave them a short bow so they can begin the battle in second row. Also, I’ve only fired the first arrow wave (you can unleash arrow shower twice in a round, if you have Perfect Focus & support of Rally brothers), and look at what has happened to the enemy.

    This is what I think.
    In small scale battle against light armor enemies, ranged brothers can end the battle faster than melee brothers.
    In large scale battle against heavy armor enemies, melee brothers can deliver more damage than ranged brothers.

    However, most people pay more attention to tough battles than easy ones, so they might find less value in archers (I would shamefully admit I’m one of these people.

    >> They can still be classified as meatshields before they reach the ranks of valuable members of the team. Archers start as near useless to become the most powerful and end up still being useful or very useful.
    Slap me- forget it. Slap my friends if I’m wrong. How long have you been playing this game? I think most people won’t say archers are the most powerful role in this game. Well, I also believe most people don’t give a damn to archers. So they might not discover the value hidden within archers.

    >> Having 2 archers bring bigger benefits – in my opinion – than not having them.
    That’s eternal question I’m working on to find the answer. You saw me started this thread so you should know I’m hesitating to remove archers from my team. You can also probably guess I find something special in archers and that’s why I hesitated.

    Though we have different opinions, I think you like archers quite a lot. So this can’t be wrong. You must the person I’m looking for. Welcome~

    Incidentally, I’ve recruited a new brother and I intended to train him into a hybrid brother (melee + range skill). But this would take quite a while… 9500 exp…. O|¯|_

    #4715
    AGiantPieAGiantPie
    Participant

    Incidentally, I’ve recruited a new brother and I intended to train him into a hybrid brother (melee + range skill). But this would take quite a while… 9500 exp…. O|¯|_

    Hah! I’ve run into the same problem when I’ve tried to go test out various builds. If only we had a way to access a console or a testing custom battle set up thing or w/e so that we could create specific battle brothers and test them out.

    #4716
    Jaffai
    Participant

    At this stage of the game the only threat are those heavy armored orcs. Ranged brothers are bad against those so I would say archers are useless. But dont get blinded by those orcs, I think devs have something nasty comming to us in future. So you will need those archers to win those battles.

    But yea at current stage I dont put points in ranged attack. Tbh I havent had chance to try out javelins. And if AI gets better scripts and understands it has advantage at ranged combat they could just take good defensive positions and force you to attack. I would like to see some skirmish combat front of the lines to really make other party to be forced to attack or retreat. Mb increase the range of bows.

    #4717
    ManaSeedManaSeed
    Participant

    >> Hah! I’ve run into the same problem when I’ve tried to go test out various builds. If only we had a way to access a console or a testing custom battle set up thing or w/e so that we could create specific battle brothers and test them out.
    I have the compulsion to pick up every single loot. When I’m fully loaded, I have the compulsion to sell the loot at relatively high price, even if I have to travel to the furthest town. You might slap me for the next thing I’m going to say, yes I have the compulsion to buy food at almost lowest price. “But this doesn’t even make sense! How much are you going to save from that?”

    I’ve racked up 150,000 crowns. After finding absolutely no purpose to have so much crowns, my compulsion for money making is finally cured.

    Now I’ve decided to send my kids brothers to college. I hope they can learn something or gain some experience from it.

    Aside from the joke, I would trade 15 crowns for 1 exp. 30 crowns is fine too, all I want is to send my brothers to college.

    >> At this stage of the game the only threat are those heavy armored orcs.
    I’m still finding good way to handle enemy archers that comes in large numbers. At this point I begin to believe my brothers are wearing far less armor than everyone else.

    >> Ranged brothers are bad against heavy armored orcs so I would say archers are useless.
    Ranged brothers are pretty good against them, but melee brothers are just damn good. Depending on perks you’ve chosen, melee brothers can be anti-melee specialists.

    >> Tbh I havent had chance to try out javelins.
    I recommend you to compare a crossbow and javelin. Crossbow for accuracy & firepower, while Bow for tactics (1 extra range means everything in battle). I’ve seen people mentioning the advantage of javelin is the ability to wield a shield. But when I look at the amount of Javelin’s ammo again, I bend slowly and cover my face with my palms.

    >> And if AI gets better scripts and understands it has advantage at ranged combat they could just take good defensive positions and force you to attack.
    I don’t understand about their advantage at ranged combat. Isn’t the side with high grounds will have the ranged advantage? If you’re talking about patience, yes. Enemy can simply fall back to high grounds and wait for me to come. I can do the same but I don’t have eternal life to win the war of patience.


    >> I would like to see some skirmish combat front of the lines to really make other party to be forced to attack or retreat. Mb increase the range of bows.

    If enemy is too weak, you’ll be “forced” to attack. If enemy is too strong, you’ll be forced to retreat (*´・v・)
    Just me though. The range of crossbow and bow is kinda nice.

    P.S.
    I don’t think it is justifiable, but I want 5 extra ammo in arrow/bolt quivers.

    #4718
    AGiantPieAGiantPie
    Participant

    At this point I begin to believe my brothers are wearing far less armor than everyone else.

    Every single brother in my company is wearing the toughest armor I can find.

    But when I look at the amount of Javelin’s ammo again, I bend slowly and cover my face with my palms.

    I use javelins as javelins were used to great effect in real life. My melee brothers all start with javelins equipped. They all stand in the line they spawn in, and throw javelins as the enemies advance. They switch to their weapons when the enemies close to melee range (Quick hands is a great perk), and proceed to fight as per normal. They’ll never need more than 4 javelins in any one fight.

    #4719
    ManaSeedManaSeed
    Participant

    >> Melee brothers…. Throwing JAVELINS….
    (・□・;)D-did you increase ranged skill for melee brothers?

    >> They switch to their weapons when the enemies close to melee range (Quick hands is a great perk), and proceed to fight as per normal.
    Quick hands is definitely best tier 1 perk. I doubt someone can argue about that. Once per round, you can suddenly raise shield, switch to range 2 weapon, draw your pre-loaded crossbow, prepare stunning weapon for boss, WITHOUT AP.

    >> Every single brother in my company is wearing the toughest armor I can find.
    I always wanted to ask this question after seeing so many people allocating heavy armor to their brothers. Do you really need that much armor? Were your armors almost broken at end of battle most of the time?

    #4720
    Jaffai
    Participant

    Advantage comes with numbers and quality. If enemy has more men with bows than you, you have to try to engage them in melee as fast as possible and if AI understands this it can take good position and make you fight for high ground. Now you can just take high ground and wait AI to come there, even if AI has more ranged fire power. Im just saying if scripting got better the party with more firepower has advantage. I think range should be increased and battle maps should be smaller.

    I think the problem with archer is bad scripting for AI right now. If we could play multiplayer battle and had more archers you would have to attack me or I would shot you down with my archers. I know how to use them in the way that you cannot catch them. I would shoot you once and retreat to higher ground behind my melee. Higher ground bonus is bigger advantage than you having more melee guys.

    This would make you having archers as tactical advantage not as damage dealers.

    #4721
    AGiantPieAGiantPie
    Participant

    I always wanted to ask this question after seeing so many people allocating heavy armor to their brothers. Do you really need that much armor? Were your armors almost broken at end of battle most of the time?

    No. If the battle was an easy battle I probably wouldn’t even take any damage. Most of the time, some of the armor would get damaged, but no real health damage is sustained. However, there are the occasional tough fights. If you go into a tough fight without the best equipment you can field, you’ll lose brothers. What I’ve learned so far playing this game is that HP means nothing. Your brothers will die in 1-2 strikes to their HP, once their armor is gone. Therefore, to me, armor is health. If a brother runs out of armor, he’s dead, unless he gets very lucky and somehow survives with single digits of HP remaining. I also use brothers as “holding” troops sometimes. By that I mean, I tie down 2-3 enemies with one brother, who just sits there shieldwalling every turn. With good melee defense, a shield, and heavy armor, he can last a long time while other brothers focus down other creatures, then come and smash the held troops at once. Killing enemies in this way is a fantastic way to destroy morale. Good armor is absolutely imperative in this situation, obviously.

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