Paul´s Art Corner

[PsenBattle]

@Trig:
We are already tweaking the game balance a lot for the upcoming Goblin Update. There are many factors playing into the heavy armor issue. For example there is no enemy weapon progression at the moment. Thats why orcs will one-hit you in the first encounters, because their weapons are designed for late game battles.
All of this and more wil be remedied slowly but surely :) The Goblin update will be a big step in the right direction.

On top of that have a look at the reworked tunics:

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[PsenBattle]

Holy.Death wrote:

What about making lighter armor increasing melee defense bonus and/or decreasing the chances of being hit while moving through enemy control zone(s)?

The problem with a def bonus would be the early game. People start out with pretty low melee accuracy and they all wear the lightest armor in the game. Battles would drag on forever without anybody hitting anything :)

A Def malus for heavy armor would be possible. Of course that would be another restrictive mechanism which never feels very good…

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[RusBear]

it’s not quite the topic of discussion here. then basically the same all-pictures :)
but : I hate games where there’s a certain pattern to win. a trick or imbalanced gear, a combination of special features which gives unexpectedly winning effect that allows you to easily defeat any enemy. Most often, these are some mistakes in the game mechanics of combat system. Battle brothers I really liked the fact that own mechanics is simple and most importantly – is adequate. Revision of the armor system – this is a very important step in changing the gameplay, it is very important not to stumble. And do not sacrifice realism and common sense for the sake of gameplay. light armor can not be protected from getting damaged (by any means), better than heavy. And who said that my well-trained warrior can not move quickly in heavy armor and better than this one has just hired a thief in a leather cape? This is nonsense. You can not avoid throwing spears or crossbow bolts and even hitting ax – if it is made a master blow – not your shitty movies about elves, do not delusions. So I very carefully and cautiously waiting for the new patch – it really defines me if the game makes a step forward or backward. The fact that the armor is no longer a guarantee against injuries – that’s fine, but we should not forget that the armor actually can not only prevent damage but did not even hurt at all if the strike is weak or you’re trying to break his sword slashing quality shell. As they say, let’s have to play by common rules :)

[Holy.Death]

PsenBattle wrote:

The problem with a def bonus would be the early game. People start out with pretty low melee accuracy and they all wear the lightest armor in the game. Battles would drag on forever without anybody hitting anything :)

Indeed. I recall someone making a post that certain weapons are not as effective when used against certain types of armor. It could mix very well with what you plan to do while giving weapons even more diversity. But I guess it’d be best to wait for the content before judging anything.

RusBear wrote:

Revision of the armor system – this is a very important step in changing the gameplay, it is very important not to stumble. And do not sacrifice realism and common sense for the sake of gameplay. light armor can not be protected from getting damaged (by any means), better than heavy. And who said that my well-trained warrior can not move quickly in heavy armor and better than this one has just hired a thief in a leather cape? This is nonsense. You can not avoid throwing spears or crossbow bolts and even hitting ax – if it is made a master blow – not your shitty movies about elves, do not delusions.

You can avoid javelins and crossbow bolts in this game: it depends on your stats, perks and equipment (kite shield).

It’s a game and like any game can’t be too realistic. If you make ultra realistic game while sacrificing gameplay, then you have a game that could be – perhaps – closer to what’s considered “realistic”, but wouldn’t be enjoyable to play. That’s why gameplay is more important. Realism in games is ALWAYS contractual.

It’s good that armor system is being revisited, because its previous iteration created, as you yourself have said, “a certain pattern”. To break that pattern there must be more choices that are viable for a player. But to make choices viable (or to scale down too good choices) changes are needed to the system. And that’s what the game is: the system made up of certain rules.

You ask “why your well-trained warrior can not move quickly in heavy armor and better than this one has just hired a thief in a leather cape?”. That’s why. You say you want realism over gameplay, but suddenly you sound like you want your own image of realism over the actual realism…

[PsenBattle]

Holy.Death wrote:

Indeed. I recall someone making a post that certain weapons are not as effective when used against certain types of armor. It could mix very well with what you plan to do while giving weapons even more diversity. But I guess it’d be best to wait for the content before judging anything.

We have been discussing this in pretty minute detail and already have a concept in mind we would like to test.
I cant tell yet when or even IF its going to happen. If we implement it, it will most probably come with the big worldmap rework.

Cheers!

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[RusBear]

to Holy. Death.
Useless to argue – each of us anyway remains at his opinion. You have an opinion I have my own. Much more important what is the opinion of developers. For any of your argument I can find my 2 and you do the same. Better to wait and see after the patch – what opinion the developers about this :)

[Holy.Death]

RusBear – Agreed.

Psen – I have huge sympathy for drawn maps with figurines moving on it from my board game times and from Medieval: Total War (1). Hegemony (Wars of Ancient Greece and The Rise of Ceasar) had quite unique take on this. Rework of the worldmap is something I am very interested to see. I assume it’ll be only after the goblins or will it happen along with them making an appearance?

[PsenBattle]

Hey Death,
maybe I have been a bit misleading :)
The worldmap rework refers mostly to game design. Size of the world, factions, contracts, reputation – goal of the game.
I am a real big fan of the Medieval 1 Worldmap as well, but the basic style we have now will stay the same. At the very beginning of our project we experimented with a “drawn map” style, but it didnt really work out…..

Haha I just found this old mockup I did:

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[RusBear]

let me speak on the topic of world map, since then the conversation turned to it. I quite like the way it looks now. The only thing that can be add – it is a bit of details even if not interactive. For example, the bridge over the moat at the castle, signs at intersections, destroyed houses in the cities where most attacks occur undead and orc, boat at river crossings and so on … It is clear that this problem is not even the second of importance but for the future when the release will not just around the corner. so I think that you can then add interactive objects, such as the unique quests. but this is from the “want” :)

[Rahziel]

PsenBattle wrote:

.. the basic style we have now will stay the same. At the very beginning of our project we experimented with a “drawn map” style, but it didnt really work out…..

Haha I just found this old mockup I did: -img- “World mock”

I like this one with “drawn” style, it would perfectly fit in as a “map” (don’t confuse with current worldmap, which represents in-game real world) which is needed especially when quest giver names settlement you’re unfamiliar with. Would be totally cool to have ‘show me on the map’ button besides ‘accept’ and ‘decline’ options. The map itself with little compass rose in the corner should be able to show whole world in one screen, even while it could be more inaccurate or sketchy than mockup, considering it’s medieval map, and depending on to whom the map belongs to according to the story (user or quest giver), have only friendly locations displayed with different icons for different location types, and two markers: your current location and final destination.
Certainly, you can argue that anyone can remember or write down the name, decline quest, leave town, look around worldmap as much as he likes and find named location obtaining all needed info, return to town, speak again to quest giver and accept the quest in the end..
But this horribly cripples outright kills immersion, because almost every quest written out as an event, often with very uncommon descriptions you wouldn’t believe could happen twice in a row. So to preserve it you either accept the quest or decline and never return to it.
I would even suggest to disable/hide the quests which were declined, or in case this is too much – change the ‘intro’ part of quest accordingly. For example, a merchant you decided to return to after checking other options and worldmap would mock you asking if you finally resolved yourself to take up his offer, and maybe cut your pay a bit (like 5-10 crowns) while at it. This would be much more immersive, while also a bit discourage behavior unbefitting for mercenary.

[Holy.Death]

PsenBattle wrote:

maybe I have been a bit misleading The worldmap rework refers mostly to game design. Size of the world, factions, contracts, reputation – goal of the game.

It looks like it was I who was imprecise.

I simply threw in some examples where map has been used in an interesting way, one that made them resemble a board games. With that said your game does share same approach that I like (even more so in tactical battles, thanks to the stands all characters are located on). Besides that I was simply wondering what kind of rework you had in mind when you mentioned reworking the big worldmap rework as it sounded more than just redrawing it.

Here are some examples I mentioned ealier: Hegemony Rome: The Rise of Ceasar, Endless Legend, Ticket to Ride.

[Trig]

PsenBattle wrote:

On top of that have a look at the reworked tunics

Why are some belts buckled from left to right and others from right to left? Don’t most men wear the belt to the left?

[RusBear]

Trig wrote:

PsenBattle wrote:

On top of that have a look at the reworked tunics

Why are some belts buckled from left to right and others from right to left? Don’t most men wear the belt to the left?

I think this is due to the fact that some men are so hard to keep his sword in his right hand and in the conditions of the game are afraid to let it go – that buttoned strap as they can! :)

[PsenBattle]

Trig wrote:

Don’t most men wear the belt to the left?

I thought so too, but found plenty of reference pictures with the belt in all directions so I decided to not really bother about it and change it around for a littel optical variety.
To be on the sure side I’ll make them all left to right now.

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[Holy.Death]

I see you’ve got a new haircut, Psen. And a new suit of armor.

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