Holy.Death

[Holy.Death]

ManaSeed wrote:

Before I begin to discuss ranged brothers, I drop two images here to convince you that melee brothers are not merely shields for range brothers. […] In second image, a melee brother can deal 1000 dmg per round. So it’s time for you to rely more on melee brothers, this will also help you understand the role of range brothers better.

Are we talking about a fully leveled up brother? If yes, then you don’t have to convince anyone that an experienced melee brother is extremely useful. I only call melee brothers shields for range brothers when they can’t contribute to combat on their early levels (I give them spear and shield, to boost their base accuracy and make them harder to be hit).

By the way, how is taunt talent working? Does it forces enemy to attack the taunting brother only when enemies can reach him (move and/or attack)? Or does it make enemies to go on all out attack against any target close by (which can be useful if you don’t want enemies to shieldwall after an attack)? Does it work on the undead? I couldn’t really tell…

Ughh…. look at my ugly banner. I really wish devs would allow us to change our group name and banner. If I know I would spent this much time in this experimental gameplay, I would have spend some time to choose the name and banner, rather than just going with default ones. I’m glad the new large patch might wipe out all old & incompatible saves so I have an excuse to start new game in future.

Here is an excellent discussion about banners.

[Holy.Death]

I think I’ve played enough to say that I was correct about enemies not trying to break shields once you get heather shields. Before that point they don’t hesitate splitting round shields left and right (which is good). I was fighting young orcs, veterans orcs and fallen heroes. No attempts were made against shields, just regular attacks.

[Holy.Death]

I was thinking about making something look unique (could always argument that’s an experimental armor, or made by a visionary blacksmith who was ahead of his time), but remaining within what’s believable for medieval times. I really hope that whatever legendary armor they want to add it’ll look cool on top of being great piece of gear to use.

[Holy.Death]

Are you sure crossbow can deal nice damage to skeleton archer? (⊙_☉) Why does my memory say different things? If I recall correctly, the last time I fired a projectile against skeleton, I was stunned for 3 seconds then trying to measure enemy’s missing hp with ruler. Then I stopped and let out of sigh. “Let it go~~~ Let it go~~~~~” 　　ヾ( ๑´д`๑)ﾂ

I checked this again and you’re correct. Damage is terrible.

Also, did you realize enemy archers have infinite ammo? (if I remember correctly)

The AI is subject to same rules as a player. If you take quivers from the ground or loot them after battle, you should see numbers diminished. I do. I never saw enemy archer to run out of ammo, because I never let them live long enough to spend it all on my brothers.

I’ve been wondering why no ranged enemy has crossbow. Maybe because it would be too deadly due to its high accuracy and armor damage? Also, due to high AP cost for reloading crossbow, it is harder for ranged enemy to “hit and run”. When you approach enemy archer as you advance to engage melee enemy, the enemy archer will usually fall back several steps so you can’t catch him.

Firing a crossbow takes only 2 AP, so you can fire and move [away]. You’ll have to sacrifice next turn to reload, but you’ll be able to fire instantly and at that point you should be in safer spot than where you begun.

Game has ranged defense stats and kite shields, they both help reduce enemy accuracy (especially if you add shieldwall on top of that). The only problem I can see it getting through enemy lines to get to crossbowmen, but I think it’s a good thing as it’d make you come up with ways of being active, rather than reactive. Unless terrain is good for hiding (swamps, bushes, trees, etc.).

[Holy.Death]

I find swords way more useful than axes. Axes should maybe get another special attack to help balance them. Greatswords are just way more versatile.

Axes crush shields and armor better than greatswords. That’s why I prefer axes over swords.

[Holy.Death]

I think the most advantageous is taking defensive position and letting – or forcing – enemy to come to you. Because archers. Without them on your side and with more powerful ranged enemies it would be the other way around. So far only skeleton archers can be trouble if they are well protected (although crossbows deal nice damage to them), but they have hard time getting through your armor. What about skeleton crossbowmen? This should make players think twice about disregarding ranged defense and remaining on the defensive side of the battle. Orcs can be somewhat OK without ranged due to their heavy armor, shields and ability to wedge into your formation and wreck havoc with massive damage.

[Holy.Death]

What about making legendary armor? I could imagine legendary equipment to look differently than standard items.

[Holy.Death]

Do you gaiz think this bush is tall enough to block the sight completely, when your height is +1?

Only when enemy is directly behind the bush.

Yes I definitely saw you mentioned that. But there might be certain perks which allow you to have more stamina. (so I didn’t say anything about that) Wouldn’t a crossbow be a better alternative to complement a melee brother’s capability, as it’s more deadly in most situations? Unless your focus is in raising the shield.

If you have to invest a lot of stamina to be able to throw and then fight in melee, then it shows how big investment it is for a weapon that isn’t ultimately great on its own. It’s useful, but such an investment for a side arm? The only redeeming side of such building up of your brother might be the fact that reducing stamina cost of armor will help your stamina overall and complements the javelin usage by itself…

Shield makes it safer to be at the front lines, even more so if you improve defense generated by the shield and improve your personal defense stat. Orcs are the most relevant enemies here. Being caught without your shield (and potentially getting stunned be the charge, to make matters worse) can get ugly really fast. Other than that? It can be easily questioned. I feel javelins need some tweaking, but I guess I will have to try and get 5-6 battle brothers (not all, because I want some other specialists on my team) to use javelins and see how it goes.

[Holy.Death]

Please share your secret of success. My archers have same AP as melee enemies, so I can only delay their arrival as long as possible.

Put a melee brother between enemies and your archers.
Zone of control alone will suffice to force enemy to go a long way around, to avoid getting caught in melee when your foes are trying to reach your archers. It means you don’t even need a thick line to defend an area (think of a spear-wall), allowing you to free some men to do something else than just “plugging the hole”.

Like how? When you begin the battle with enemies coming from all directions, you breakthrough against one direction so you won’t get surrounded?

I let them come.

My archers start firing and either attack the vanguard with mutliple of my melee brothers or wait for them to come even closer and overwhelm certain individuals, while at the same time keeping in mind to have my spare men in positions to block possible approaches to my archers. It doesn’t always work (veteran orcs can just smash into your battleline, that’s why I place archers further away than usual), but it works 90% of the time. The point is to keep my archers firing. Melee brothers can either kill or survive, but for as long as archers can support them their job gets easier as enemies keep falling under the hail of arrows.

Seriously? Seriously serious? Meatshields, I thought that’s the way you address melee brothers. You actually use melee brothers as pure meatshield!!? And you use them as expendables, just like provisions and medicines!!?

Meatshields = raw recruits. Not all melee brothers. Raw recruits are expendable, because they don’t have perks and upgraded stats that my veteran brothers possess.

You need someone to keep the enemy busy so your archers can keep firing, right? So you should keep your meatshields alive, and turn them into super meat- I mean, guardians. The stronger your guardians, the longer your archers can fire, so it aids your purpose.

Who said I am not trying to keep them alive? I just don’t cry when they die. I am more concerned with life of my venerable brothers than I am with someone who is inexperienced and often useless for anything else than holding the line.

My tummy…. it hurts *still laughing*. When I said I recommend you to compare a crossbow and javelin, I don’t mean to compliment javelin. I was actually asking you to compare the most valuable ranged weapon and the worst ranged weapon.

And I said problem lies elsewhere than the ammo count. I find javelin useful as it can complement a melee brother’s capabilities. Provided he has enough stamina left to fight after throwing them. It lets you attack on the move.

They actually already do that, but perhaps not by enough. The likelihood of going for the shield is increased by 1.25^n, with n being the number of allies surrounding the target, i.e. one ally adjacent increases the chance by 25%, two would increase it by 56%, and so on.

I will keep an eye on that. They do nice job when it comes down to smaller shields so far. I will make notes how they behave when stronger shields enter the battle.

[Holy.Death]

Its usually more rewarding to talk about the game balance if “you” think yourself commander for both sides. What if I do this, what are choices for the other army? And not, if I do this. AI will always do that.

[…]

For example. The first battle. Other side has 4 poorly skilled melee guys and one archer. And other side has one swordmaster with heater shield, sword and leather armor. Which side is going to win the battle? Which ever side player is playing on. With swordmaster you can take high ground and just wait,use shieldwall and riposte to kill melee guys (as they will engage you) while AIs archer is badly positioned. If player is on other side just take high ground again and its easy win again.

I am not so sure. There is random element – especially early on – that can make battle go various ways, outside other “certain” variables.

If anything I’d like to see the AI try to shatter shields when they have numerical superiority. Because as of right now they tend to avoid shield splitting past a round shield type (unless they are Orcs, but even then it’s a very rare occurence). This should make scenarios like a lone warrior surrounded by half a dozen of zombies with axes more dramatic as shield will break and he’ll be overwhelmed at some point.

[Holy.Death]

Crag_Hack wrote:

Hey guys do we have a Bascinet helmet (a.k.a Pigface Helmet)?

Funny, in my land we call it “Dogface Helmet”.

[Holy.Death]

ManaSeed wrote:

About at least 1/3? (I dunno the portion) of the time, you don’t start the battle with a lined-up or tidy formation. You might get surrounded and has scattered formation especially if you engage enemy in forest. This depends on your play style, some people always engage enemy on plains. I dislike battle in forest but most enemy bases are in forest.

I didn’t have problems fighting in forest (or any terrain, to be honest). It can present difficulties, but if terrain is just too bad then I switch to a secondary weapon that allows to support melee brothers directly. Still, most of the time even the thickest forest wasn’t that bad as to completely prevent my ranged brothers from doing their part. Being scattered was rarely a problem too.

In my experience, when you get surrounded or pursuing enemy archer with your archer, there is a chance your archer might get shot. In small scale battle, the enemy archer could miss you or you might dispatch him very quickly. But in large scale battle, there is a good chance for enemy archers to hit or wound your unit severely (if he has no ranged def or armor).

I don’t let myself to be surrounded. Exactly because my archers more often than not thin down enemy ranks before they get close (or weaken them so much that melee brothers can finish the job), even when enemies have numerical superiority. Do not underestimate the ability to fire twice per turn. Also do not underestimate the power of a crossbow. Additionaly, I position my archers in a way to make it very hard to reach them and even if enemy reaches them (veteran orcs are the worst), then that’s why all my archers/crossbowmen wear a good armor on them. I mostly level their fatigue to be able to fire bow more often, but it helps them wear better armor as well.

Wow wow just- wait, you’re actually right but that idea is extremely dangerous. I think most people will try their very best to keep everyone alive. Because if someone dies, all the experience gained will be wasted. Even he’s just a meatshield to you, you would rather him to be a veteran meatshield than just a rookie meatshield forever, right?

Your point is…? Because what you’ve said is not even an argument.

If 2 meatshields can do 2000+ dmg respectively in 3 rounds (shown in my previously posted image), they must be made of some highly poisonous or corrosive meat. Each meatshield deals 700 dmg in every round (without Rally perk). Don’t even try to calculate, your ranged brother can’t do this at all.

I think you confuse meatshields (raw recruits) with someone else, because meatshields miss more often than they hit (very low base stats), so they are incapable of reaching a vast amount of damage in 3 rounds. Besides, bandits? I fight Orcs. Heavily armored too. Led by a Warboss. At that point bandits are nothing, so it doesn’t really impress me.

Slap me- forget it. Slap my friends if I’m wrong. How long have you been playing this game? I think most people won’t say archers are the most powerful role in this game. Well, I also believe most people don’t give a damn to archers. So they might not discover the value hidden within archers.

48 hours. I don’t really care what people will say or won’t. I am saying how it plays in my experience. If anything I’d say people are discouraged from leveling up archers, because they think chances to hit are too low and can hit their own guys, but I looked past these issues and found out that they hit quite often for a lot of damage and can dominate mid-game and still remain valuable in end-game.

I recommend you to compare a crossbow and javelin. Crossbow for accuracy & firepower, while Bow for tactics (1 extra range means everything in battle). I’ve seen people mentioning the advantage of javelin is the ability to wield a shield. But when I look at the amount of Javelin’s ammo again, I bend slowly and cover my face with my palms.

Ammo is not a problem. It’s stamina. And ranged accuracy. It takes a rare breed to be javelin user. However, I wouldn’t go as far as to say that javelins can replace bows or crossbows. Rather they’re to supplement brother’s capabilities by allowing him to hit from afar for a lot of damage in various situations.

[Holy.Death]

ManaSeed wrote:

Why everyone is suggesting my ranged brothers to use melee weapons? Just what stats have you increased for your archers!? щ(ºДºщ)

Fatigue (to fire a bow and wear better armor), Ranged Attack (to be able to hit) and Melee Attack (to be able to hit if forced into melee). Since I don’t need my archers to be in the front row I don’t need Melee Defense and Ranged Defense is not really needed when your archers can win the contest with enemy archers (the only exception being skeleton archers) by killing them first. There are no real ranged threats in the game so far.

Can you fire arrow without meatshields to protect you!? щ(ºДºщ)

My point is – if my brother can’t hit the wide side of a barn he’s a meatshield. His only purpose is to occupy enemies while archers do their job. If he dies I can always hire another one who will be capable of doing this bare minimum.

When enemy comes in front of you, can you still fire arrow or reload? (you will exhaust all pre-loaded crossbows in your belt inventory in a second) For this reason, I think melee brother is actually INEVITABLE member for any team.

They can still be classified as meatshields before they reach the ranks of valuable members of the team. Archers start as near useless to become the most powerful and end up still being useful or very useful. Having 2 archers bring bigger benefits – in my opinion – than not having them.

[Holy.Death]

In my experience the ranged brothers are the most powerful ones, especially when they are experienced and the group is fighting against lightly armored enemies. They can kill many before they even reach the front lines. After that they can switch to billhooks or other distance weapons to help out in melee combat. They are less efficient against armored enemies, but with crossbows they can help out a lot, so they stay relevant even in late game.

In short – they range from being the most important members of the group to being useful enough to not consider not having them. Melee brothers range from being near useless meatshields to being valuable members, but not to that extent and they are always taking higher risk when in combat (so you’re much more likely to lose them).

[Holy.Death]

+1

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