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From another thread
Now we added the Great Goblin City, the Fortress of the Warlord (Orcs) and the Raiders Stronghold (bandits).
These are absolute Endgame Locations. I suggest all bros should be lvl 11
So, as a new answer to your question: yes, I’ve done Raiders Stronghold. Honestly, it was so easy I didn’t realize it was an endgame place. I haven’t discovered the other two yet. I cleared a pretty big Goblin place awhile ago, so it might have been the GGC.
I’m not complaining about the difficulty, mind you. I’m pointing out that building a kickass team takes away from the personality of your Bros. And I’ve tried building a team where I maintain “personality” and it’s simply not as effective.
Obviously, not every build will be viable in the completed game. I also don’t know what you have planned for the perk/stat upgrade, so I look forward to that :D
PS: Did you kill all the other “final” locations apart from the Obelisk? That one is just the undead version
Not yet. The semester just started :(
– Perksystem and stat system will be intertwined in a way that will make for a lot more interesting choices
– An Early game Goblin should be added but whe are hesitant to do it now, as all faction progression will be reworked in the worldmap overhaul anyways
– Named Weapons are just some candy until we get to implement legendary weapons. Stat wise they are always the best weapons in their category. If any named Noble Sword isnt straight up better than a normal named sword, thats a bug.
– Silent Storm is awesome :) We need more games like that!
Sorry for the short version, but my time is limited :(
I hope you still enjoy this unfinished version of the game. Theres a lot more to come
Sweet! And yes, I am enjoying the game, if I wasn’t, I wouldn’t write long posts about it on the forums :D
Keep up the good work!
A couple notes on “end game”
With the crew I mentioned in the first post, most fights at higher levels go like this.
2. Hold until enemies get in range of crossbowmen
3. With high skill, and the goblin ballista, a crossbowman can kill 2 enemies on the first round, with a bit of luck. (+4 AP on kill, +50% damage on kill)
4. Wait 2 turns if needed for enough targets to get in range.
4b. Work your archers in pairs. Archer 1 shoots, if he doesn’t kill, archer 2 can get the kill and the buffs and easily score another kill (2 kills), repeat with archers 3 and 4. If you’re lucky, each archer kills with the first shot (easy with bandit thugs, ghouls or other unarmored enemies) and you can kill 8 enemies on the first round. Boom, battle won.
5. Shieldwall up to reduce throwing weapon damage and pot-shots from snipers.
6. Werewolves, goblin riders and ghouls get wasted, because they all move fast enough to get in range of all your archers.
7. Any enemies that hit your shieldwall get cut to pieces.
7b. Use the greatsword, it’s got so much more versatility over the greataxe.
7c. Shield bros should carry axe+cleaver and maybe an extra shield.
7d. Archers get another pack of bolts+noble sword/shield (just in case)
8. By this point, enemies with morale should be breaking. Often parties of bandits start running after the first round.
9. Break wall, unleash dogs, chase down any survivors.
10. Go back to the tavern for ale.
There are only 3 things this doesn’t work as well against.
1. Massive number of enemies, such as the Black Obelisk. I still won, but it was rough and I had luck on my side. Vampires really fuck up your archers and fatigue will creep up on you. I had a lucky break in their lines and rushed a bro out to disrupt the necromancers.
2. Orc warriors/warbosses. So much armor. Not unbeatable, but you have to play really smart as opposed to the lazy archer style.
3. Lost Souls. 100+ days, never saw a single one. Not sure how this team would work against them, because I keep morale fairly low.
At level 11ish and once you chase down enough goblins to get 4 of their crossbows, this team can waltz through anything except the above. It feels a bit meh, because every battle brother essentially loses any personality, because in order to get this group, you have to stat/equip them all the same. Because of the way stats work, the swordmaster that you paid thousands of gold pieces for doesn’t really shine much more than the farmer you paid a couple hundred for.
I’m fairly certain the combat system works on a percentile basis.
Imagine you’ve got a set of d100’s in hand. If your Melee skill is 50, you need to roll the d100 equal to or under 50 to hit a target. It’s a 50% chance, basically. 65 weaponskill is 65% and so on.
Then, I think Defense is subtracted from that. So if a battle brother has 70% weapon skill, but the enemy has 5% defense+15% from a shield (20%), then you’ve got a 50% chance to hit.
Certain things mod this, such as range for missile weapons, or Overwhelm for melee, and certain skills/weapons as well (spears, for example).
If this is true, leveling melee defense over 90 would still help in certain situations, but you’re probably looking at some serious diminishing returns by that point.
I’ve found that Initiative is basically a shit-stat. After some experimentation, I’ve never put a single point into it. The same for Ranged Defense.
How do you use the cheat engine?
Ugh, I barely know. It’s a lot of trial and error.
And cheat engine? Explain?
Google it. It’s a program designed for, basically, use as a trainer in any game.
Using it takes 90% of the fun out of the game, because giving yourself 1 million gold makes things incredibly easy. But it’s useful for trying out different builds. It’s also difficult to use.
In short, I don’t recommend it, but if people want, I can try to write up a little walk through for it.
Just mentioning I’m reading all of this and like what I see
Not promising anything but maybe we’ll tweak the two handed axe a little, as the 360 swing is really difficult to employ in an effective manner.
Dev reply! :D Yeah, I’m not sure what the axe could gain. Maybe a passive chance to damage shields? A swing that deals no damage, but forces all enemies to move 1 hex away? Or maybe a Perk that allows AoE attacks to auto-miss allies. Again, the main issue is the versatility of the greatsword. It might deal less damage, but it’s more tactically viable.
I’ve finally managed to put every Perk tree into action and I’ll post my thoughts up asap.
Keep up the good work, love your game :D
1. Lack of documentation:
There is very little ingame. This may be due to the early access status or financial resource driven. But there has to be a bit more. In the least, there can be PDF files or even webpages where basic stuff can be listed. I know that you are promoting a Wikipa site for this, but even there most of the stuff is missing. Where exactly am I going to find even the most rudimentary stuff like what undead units possess in terms of abilities? Why do they keep resurrecting, and how do I make them stop doing so?
Agreed. I’d also say that it’d be cool to slowly learn about enemies as you fight them.
2. Empty map/lack of direction:
I won’t delve into this, as I understand it’s very early part of early access, and the devs will add a lot more. But this is the first thing you notice.
You could also use a minimap badly, as things are sprawled out, and everything (including yourself) is hard to locate.
I don’t think a minimap is really needed. You can zoom in/out and the entire map isn’t THAT big. Also, you can hit the Shift key to center the map on your party.
3. Racial (lack of) diversity:
I know that you are aiming for a low magic, low fantasy world, and that funds are limited. Still, could you reconsider implementing Elves/Dwarves at some point in the future? You already have Orcs/Goblins/undead; so excluding Elves/Dwarves seem fairly arbitrary, unless there is an absolute financial necessity. The latter two races will so dramatically enhance game atmosphere, tactics, and ultimately replayability.
It sounds like the devs are focusing on making a low-fantasy thing first, I doubt we’ll see elves/dwarves. Although I sorta agree, low-fantasy+orcs seems to defy the very definition, but then again, it’s not my setting!
4. Character Development:
Really well done and well balanced. Among other things, I love that the fact that you seem to have (I assume intentionally) prevented the possibility of one man army type of character that is both killy and durable: You have to choose to have either a killy or durable character, because of that brilliant concept of Utility tree, which requires its own massive investment for all toons.
So even at this early point of inception, I say the Perk system is consummately well done. My only major issue is that the Offense tree is so lacking at tier 1 compared to Defense and, especially, Utility trees. Tier 1 Offense tree really seem to have only 2 universally worthwhile choices so must be boosted.
Have to disagree. I think the Perk system is one of the things that needs the most work. It’s got a lot of great ideas, but needs a ton more balancing (the Defense tree is nearly worthless, for example)
5. Quest variety/limit/payout:
Too few quest types, which may or may not be addressed. The artificial limit of 1 is a far bigger issue, and I assume won’t change (unless there’s a major rethink). Given a) the time spent/distance traveled on individual quests and b) the typically low payout, I don’t see any justification for this at all. And this leads to the next issue of payout: Most of them pay way too little. In particular, you are still mostly inundated with these 200 gold quests well into the game, and 200g won’t even pay my troops for a single day!
Questing does need some work, and I’m sure it’ll get it. But also, keep in mind that you can run from one side of the map to the other in only about 2 days. So a 200 gold quest to go from one town to the next is generally a profit. It’s how I make money early game.
It is, however, a little boring. I can basically farm as much money as I want while avoiding fights I can’t win by running from one town to the next. So, I agree this system needs work.
6. Tactical combat issues:
Deep and satisfying in general, but a few issues:
My biggest issue without question is the low sight radius (which is multiplied by the better helmets). This issue is in particular exacerbated when fighting ranged units you cannot see until you are literally right next to them. Perhaps all this was intended to preserve a sense of the “fog of war” and enable some sort of hit and run tactics. But it’s ridiculous and unrealistic that units can shoot twice and thrice further than one can see from a realistic perspective; it also dampens my enthusiasm for fighting ranged units. I feel that it may become a nightmare once Goblins are introduced.
Another issue is the dearth of display info on opposing units. This is somewhat tied to my first category, the lack of documentation. But this is also a separate issue. I’d like to know things like how many HPs the opposing units have, as well as their build in general, special abilities, etc. I need more than simply unit name and portrait and a few bars.
Also, I’d like some sort of unit defection mechanic, where you can mind control or simply persuade an opposing unit to join you. Perhaps we can have an Orc that has gone through a Drizzt like conversion? :) (Perhaps we can ultimately enable recruitment of Orc or nonhuman units as well, with a few of their own distinctive Backgrounds).
A. I agree that the “vision” system is a bit skewed. It seems like the penalty to fatigue for wearing heavy helmets is enough, and the “I can’t see more than 5 feet in front of me” thing just doesn’t make sense. Maybe it should become a penalty to ranged attacks, instead of sight range? That way an archer shouldn’t be wearing a heavy helmet, but the tank up front can still see.
B. I sorta agree with more enemy info, but I like that you only have a general idea instead of an exact number of HP left. But after fighting a few battles with enemies you should be able to learn some basic things.
C. Pretty sure the devs said that the players group will only ever be humans. Maybe mods can change this in the future. Also, future enemies will have mind-control abilities. Though I think the devs also said that the player will never be able to use magic (although enemies will).
Grimdark low fantasy yo!
I haven’t seen much, except that there seems to be a few during tactical combat. Sometimes there are dark blobs where there should be units; at other times there are shield like symbols. What’s going on here?
Huh, I’ve never seen that one. The one bug I’ve gotten is the UI disappearing on the world map, but that’s easily solved by a quick-load or mashing escape a few times.
Both deserters (or something similar) as “Late game bandit enemies” as well as real human factions are on our planning schedule.
I admit that most enemies at the moment can’t keep up with the player progression (maybe except orcs). So we are already discussing lots of late game content right now.
The problem with orcs right now is that they come in “tiers” that are too far apart. Young orcs might need another trick up their sleeve while orc warriors might need to be scaled down a little bit.
They do, but how often do you use the axes 360 swing? The 3 hex cleave and 2 hex swing from the greatsword seem to outweigh the axe’s increased damage.
If I want to destroy a shield, I’ll use a 1 handed axe from another warrior, to set up the dude with the giant 2 hander. Wasting a 2 handed attack to break a shield is sorta meh.
Your mileage may vary, but that’s just what I’ve found suits my style.
Having run with crossbows for awhile, I think they need some work too. The 1 shot per round really limits them, even if they hit harder.
A. Raise the accuracy/damage to make the single shots more effective
B. Give the crossbow a melee attack, like a bash that maybe knocks back enemies for a little damage. This gives crossbowmen some more versatility.
C. Include Pavaise’s in the game
Also, would love more information in the combat log with options to disable some of them, but for nerds like me we could have a wealth of info.
Floating combat text is always fun too.
Rumor has it that the full game will have human factions fighting each other, so battles vs well equipped humans will probably happen.
I’ve been running four archers in my party and while they’re painful to level up I feel they really take off once you’ve got them leveled and have some bow skill on them. Four archers with high bow skill and the berserk perk shred enemy forces. Generally I’ve been trying to run a front of six spears&shield guys with archers behind and 1 greatsword on either side of the archers for if the enemy tries to flank around spearwall and I find it works very well. Basically I use the spears to tank while the archers kill everything and have the two handers focus down anything that manages to flank around and get my archers in melee. Also, giving archers quick hands and a spear (I always go with spear for the +20% chance to hit) usually allows them to finish off a weakened enemy in melee if necessary and swap back to their bow. They are weak against armor, but I’m hoping higher tier bows might fix this in the future.
This is usually how I run too, although I’m experimenting with crossbows instead of bows now.
The problem is that ranged weapons are only great against unarmored enemies. Ghouls and young orcs get destroyed, anything else and they’re meh. They also take about 5 levels to get to a point where they feel worthwhile.
I think the Blocked Shot penalty should be greater, but the base hit chance of all ranged weapons increased. Shield Wall should provide more ranged defense too, maybe. This way you can slowly advance on archers, but running up without a shield is a death sentence.
Not to mention, Skeletons resistance to archers is possibly a huge problem. If the story of the game requires a lot of fighting skeletons, no one is going to use many archers. I know you’ll be able to have more men and swap them out, but I feel like as they are now, archers are too much of a time investment to make them worthwhile.
The other problem is that base ranged skill starts out about 20-30 points lower than melee skill. This contributes massively to early game archers being whiff-cannons.
1. Lower the “whiff” factor of crossbows and archers, to make them deal out damage more consistent with melee.
2. Raise the armor penetration of both the crossbow and the bows. This makes trained archers a better investment, as more enemies wear armor as the game progresses.
3. Have Aimed Shot have a greater % chance to hit the head and raise its base hit chance. Right now it’s almost always better to take 2 quick shots than one aimed shot (two 20% is better than one 40%, statistically)
I think playing around with ideas such as these could lead to archers having a progression more like melee characters.
About the classes or the weapon type bearers. Archers as such are not underpowered imo, they are extremely good if they have bows. The xbows are in my play more of a secoundary weapons for my fighters just like javelins. While javelins are nice agains low armor no shield enemies, the xbow is the one range atack that any of my men can do before the enemy or they close in. It is possible since most on my men have the quick hands and the ones that don’t have still need only 6 ap to shot and swap they are mostly 1 weaponers be that a 2h or a single 1h. The said xbow deals massive damage if it hits. It usually annihilates the enemy armor/helm making everything quite easier. Only few enemies have high enough armor to ignore the shot out, like orc warriors or fallen heroes, leaders. Making it more armor damaging would be a big issue rendering even those absolutely useless. When an enemy reaches you without an armor even the weakest can 2 shot them. The archers with bows are a tactical unit that usually moves around quite a lot especially early in the game in my plays. Changing position for clear shots, high grounds or covering a unit in need. As for now I can say that 2 archers feels very few, 3 are mostly good but 4 are sometimes too much. I tend to go for 4 early game but if or better when I lose one it is not a problem. The main difference is that the bow can shot 2 times a turn (without focus) and does not need a reload while the xbow needs one, and no the argument that you can have more xbows and shot up to 2 in a single turn does not matter in most battles you can keep up only the first 2 turns with the bow. The damage is clearly different imo and the armor penetration aswell. And I do agree that there have to be more firearms especially early game ones. There are only 2bows 1xbow 1javelin.
My usual team is 6 shields, 4 archers, 2 heavies (two handers). I think archers get really good at high levels, but early on they’re pretty terrible when compared to shield/weapon guys.
You refer to the 2 hex reach weapons. There are 2 type of these, the pike/pitchfork and the billhook. The first ones are to hold the enemy back, push away and deal damage from a longer distance while the hook ones are to get the enemy closer tear them from their formation or advantageus position. As any of the enemy place changing abilities these are more tactical than damage dealing ones, to push an enemy back from surrounding one of yours, to pull them closer from a highground or push from the hill so they not only lose the position but also health and have a long run. Best use on uneven terrain. For the damaging abilities of these weapons as you mentioned the spearwall it is not a good one since the spears stops the enemy from closing in. But these are the perfect line weapons while the front row shields up you can freely attack from the back row without needing armor or any defense and deal massive amount of damage if you hit, especially with the billhook. Started with having 1 of these now playing with 2-3 and one of them is always a billhook while an other is a more heavy armored support one who can save a frontliner with rotation if needed.
The fact that these weapons function as “heavy” weapons and only get 1 attack per turn limits them a lot, imo. They have their uses, but with all my experimentation, I don’t feel they’re that great.
They are the hardest one to breed. Unfortunately at this moment I found that the only usable 2h weapon is the sword sometimes the orc chain. The sword can attack in a line just as 3 around and usually you can easily setup so that they don’t hit your own. Nothing is more facepalm when you behead your own guys with a careless swing. If you do a line tactic then just place them at the end of the line, they will attract enemies around and can do good use of those swords. But they need skills like berserk, armor, and lots of fatigue to be extremely effective on their own. It is very satisfying in a rush attack to exterminate the filth with those big swords. Tend to have 1-3 of these.
I find swords way more useful than axes. Axes should maybe get another special attack to help balance them. Greatswords are just way more versatile.
Well, half of your concept of the rogue is the weapon, and the ther one is focus. Focus can be used with any weapons, it is deadly even on an archer with no atk skill and just a blunt weapon. Imo you should look for ways to improve the way of the rogue to be more unique and not depending on just one skill. You can try the swordmaster lone wolf build with the dagger I belive it will be much more usable. I’d even go further and would go mainly in the support tree for the footwork, weaponmaster, battleflow, fearsome. While getting dodge and nimble from defense. Since you have no armor to worry about you don’t realy need the attack tree skills, maybe the tier one for tohit only.
See my previous comment, plus what I really wanted was some form of stealth.
Weapons / Armors
You are only half right. There sure is no reason not to go heavy armor while maintaining a good fatigue. And you realy should do that. Except if you going more special builds that do not need that or that is a disadvantage in their situation. There are more other builds that are viable. Some examples: swordmaster build(no shield dodge nimble), the light assault builds(high mobility units to go for archers necromancers), or the glasscannon pike/billhook builds(just pure damage no defense). You can make anything for any tactical situation. There is no builds as in some mmo but rather a general direction ones, you can achive similar results with different ways.
The main issue is that no one but a “captain” (utility spec) will be wearing the super, super heavy armor, simply because they won’t have the fatigue, even if you put points into fatigue every level. The second issue is that when given the option between wearing heavy armor and missing a turn to recover fatigue, or wearing lighter armor and attacking one more time, the armor option will win out almost every time. There should be some benefit besides fatigue to wearing lighter/no armor (dodge %, 1 more hex of movement, etc)
Medical supplies. I belive they will be much more useful when the “reserve” will be implemented (when you have an active 12 man group and some amount in the reserve) as for now it has almost no use and I’m sure it will be balanced.
Good point, but I still rarely buy them. I’ve never run out just using the ones gained from battles.
Still playing. I’m currently using cheat engine to mess around and try out builds so when I play a “real” game again, I’ll have a solid plan. Would love an update, I’m looking forward to Goblins :D
I just woke up so I’ll reply more later, but just wanted to touch on something.
The miss/hit chance “caps” at 5% which means even a build with tons of dodge will eventually get hit. If they’re not wearing armor, they’re probably going to die. Hence, armor is still necessary.
I also realize what the billhook and pike are for, I just don’t think they’re as useful as another character with a shield/one handed weapon. But maybe that’s just my personal style.