ManaSeed's Replies

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  • ManaSeed

    >> Jaffai’s very useful info about “max consecutive hits with Perfect Focus”
    There’s something I want to supplement.

    DIFFERENCE between Wildman and Hedge Knight
    wildman ==> + 10 max fatigue, +5 resolve
    hedge knight ==> +10 melee, +10 Melee def

    I actually forgot Wildman could be better alternative than Hedge Knight.

    Max consecutive 2h hits with Perfect Focus ==> [Wildman 9hits/Hedge Knight 8hits] = 1.125x
    Max melee skill ==> [Hedge Knight 105/ Wildman 95] = 1.10x

    There can never be too many hits. But 105 melee skill will reach 95% hit chance most of the time, so the excessive/unnecessary melee skill is wasted. As pure DPS melee brother, Wildman is a better alternative than Hedge Knight.

    >> Max resolve = 45(Perfect roll)+10(Fearless)+5(Drunkard)+5(Cocky)+15(Background)+40(levels)= 120
    With rally u get 120/2 = 60
    With 3 of these you get 180 fatigue per round.

    Theoretically correct, but should be practically incorrect(slightly). Due to limitation of initial position and distance, only few brothers can actually benefit from all 3 Rally brothers while delivering damage efficiently. Unless all of the attacking brothers are using ranged attacks, or they wait for enemy to come extremely near.

    Also, you must be blessed if you can actually get a duo from [fearless, drunkard, cocky]. So far I’ve never gotten one but I know it is possible. I have a brother with Strong and Iron Lungs but I doubt I’ll ever see one with both traits again.

    Most importantly, I have a question. Has anyone gotten a recruit with 3 traits before (yes I don’t mean the founding member)?

    I guess you already knew all these stuff. But I just want to point this out to make the presented values more practical and meaningful.
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    There are two forums members I want to tear them apart.

    NewAgeofPower ==> reason: I used to choose Hunter as ranged brothers. Then he made me realized I’m an idiot Sellsword is a better choice. So I ended up going through hell to raise lv1 recruits to lv11.

    Jaffai ==> reason: I used to choose Hedge Knight as pure DPS melee brothers. Then he made me realized I’m an idiot Wildman is a better choice. So I’m hesitating if I should go through hell again.
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    By the way, can any Samaritan confirm two values for me?

    What is the best initial melee skill for recruit(exclude traits effect)? 54 or 55?
    What is the best initial max fatigue for recruit(exclude traits effect)? 105 or 106?


    Certain weapons ignore bonus to melee defense granted by shields. Not sure if this is the correct answer to your puzzle. Chance to hit can be affected by various factors.

    in reply to: Sell Price Displayed Not Accurate in Shops #4953

    I’ve been wondering about that forever.

    Let’s say the worth of Greataxe is 300, you can sell it at half price for 150. But different areas have different economy and demand for such item, so 150 need to multiply by 0.XX (e.g. 0.6~0.9) to get final selling price.

    Not sure if intended or bug. Either way it is less convenient to read the prices easily.


    >> On a particular Shieldwalling Orc (forgot which type), my 110 Melee Skill Swordmaster had the max ninety five percent; interestingly, my only 93 Melee Skill Swordmaster had a paltry eighty three percent!

    So, yes, 90 Melee Skill is clearly not enough.

    It depends on your objective. If you’re aiming for melee skill high enough to achieve 95% hit chance against the most agile enemy, regardless of odds against you, I think your melee skill can never get too high.

    If you aim for optimal melee skill (highest average hit chance against all types of enemies/stats invested). You have to consider factors such as:

    1) how many % of enemies have a shield?
    2) how much chance they will use shieldwall?

    For this reason, highest melee skill definitely doesn’t equal to optimal melee skill.
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    You sure your 110 melee skill has 95% hit chance against shieldwall? Let’s say a shield reduce hit chance by 10%, shieldwall will reduce 20% hit chance in total, so 110 melee skill should be 90% hit chance if there are no other factors such Fast Adaption, weapon accuracy, height difference, overwhelmed etc. Not to mention some shield reduce hit chance by 15%, thus reduce 30% hit chance with shieldwall. 110-30 =80


    >> Also, I assume these stats are prior to Background & Trait boni? For instance, I just got a Hedge Knight with 115 Fatigue, and every other stat exceeding what you quoted other than Range Skill & Defense.

    What is boni? But I can guess what you’re trying to say. Yes you’re very keen. These are old stats taken before I use Microsoft excel to record stats. So they are not accurate and less meaningful, as what you’ve pointed out.

    >> LOL, I don’t see how seeing naked lassies would “reduce” a man’s fatigue.

    There are powers hidden within all of us.

    If you’re deadly tired after walking 50km, you must think your limit is around 50~55km.

    What if I tell you that you can actually walk for another 50 km? If your beloved ones are waiting at the destination for you to rescue them or something, you can probably do it.

    For real men, looking at curvy maidens can mentally energize them. This power-up greatly exceeds the effect of drugs taken by wimps.

    These pretty ladies with quite a personality have a chance be the wife of a brother. In other words, battle sister represents “future”. In turn, children represents “legacy”.

    Everyone dies one day, your legacy is the only thing that passed onto the world. He/she carries your will, dreams and message to the world. How can you not be excited when you fantasize about creating your legacy?

    *wiping nosebleed*


    >> By the way, there is way too much starting stat variation/gyration. I’ve seen Hedge Knights with high 60s start Melee Skill; I’ve seen others close to 50. A bit too much, you think?
    Ahh… I wasn’t answering your question just now. For mathematic and realism purpose, it is not much (60/50 = 1.2). It’s not strange if people around you have 20% difference in ability, right? But for myself, I won’t tolerate if my preferred stat (mostly melee skill) is 3 points below the best (e.g. if 60 initial melee skill is highest, I won’t accept recruit with 57 initial melee skill)

    ==> Recruits at lv1, effects of traits and equipment are removed
    best max fatigue 106
    best max resolve 45
    Best melee 54(55 only seen once)
    Best ranged 40
    best melee def 5
    best ranged def 5

    I forgot to mention the statistic is very old and doesn’t involve a lot of data. It just serves as reference.


    >> Hmmm, you sure only Orc leaders can hit that hard? I thought any generic orc with 2 handers can nail you for 200 or more.
    I searched my database and I’ve record almost nothing about orc weapons’ damage. These are the only ones.

    ==> enemy’s head chopper can do 60 dmg to your head armor, or 88 dmg to your body armor

    ==> Orc warrior’s head splitter can hit your armor for 90, 92 dmg

    >> Perhaps I should watch their damage more, but I rarely get the occasion to do so, because 1) I eliminate 2 handers fast; and 2) I rarely get hit by melees in general.

    Same situation. But recently I have not paid any attention to 2 handers, I treat all melee enemy the same (simply get in position to kill, and make sure someone can clean up the mess if my current attacker runs out of stamina due to poor luck or tough target), except special ones like Living Souls.

    >> You say? If you had Battle Sisters (which apparently are implemented soon), I bet you’d trot them out in lingerie!

    [battle log]
    0042 Battle Sisters has stripped!
    0042 Battle brothers are not looking at their enemies!
    0042 Accuracy of battle brothers has reduced by 50%.
    0042 Dodge chance of battle brothers has reduced by 70%.
    0042 Battle brothers become excited for unknown reasons!
    0042 Morale of battle brothers becomes Unbreakable.
    0042 Fatigue of battle brothers has reduced to 0.

    >> In all seriousness, I never feel safe without at least Lamellar Harness at minimum. And I think that’s light enough for your damage guys to do their thang without sacrificing much damage.

    I think now is a good time to discuss about certain thing. I think there is an optimal figure/number for Damage Per Round. I don’t know how to call this so I’ll call it “Max Efficient Damage” for the moment.

    For example, let’s say this figure is 2500. Even if you can reach this figure with just 5 melee brothers, you can’t exceed it significantly by having more melee brothers. Probably due to the following reasons:

    1) limitation of attack range
    2) occupation of tiles(spaces), since different characters can’t stand on same spot
    3) initial formation and initial distance with enemy

    Factor 1, 2 & 3 force your troops at rear or side to detour or wait. In the end, ONLY some of the line fighters are really doing all the work while the others are more or less idling, or fail to reach enemy timely.

    I’ve noticed this several times when I look at the battle results at the end. 3 out of 5 brothers dealt noticeable damage while other 2 dealt pity damage, DESPITE all five brothers have same spec, and advancing like suicide squad.

    This is something I want point out against pure DPS build(though my team is quite pure DPS). Not all risk are converted into firepower, some risk are taken for no purpose.

    >> Ok, a better question: Do you know what EXACTLY your captain’s Resolve modifies? In addition to what is written on the captain Perk screen? Someone said your Fatigue recovery; it also seems to modify how much bonus you obtain at Confident status. What else? And what is the precise formula?

    Nobody can be sure unless they are devs or they check the game code. In addition to what is written on the captain Perk screen, resolve is also a modifier stat to perk Captain and Rally the Troops. The latter perk can restore your stamina. It shouldn’t affect the amount of bonus gained with Confident status, but the CHANCE to obtain confident status. The description of Resolve has covered quite a lot of stuff. I don’t know the formula. But if I guessing your purpose correctly, you’re thinking whether Resolve is worth investing. I have a brother with Captain perk with about 100 Resolve, other brothers under his influence get Confident status when one or two nearby enemies are slain.

    After answering your questions, I want to ask someone else a question too. What else did I miss?

    >> What about Melee Skill? My Swordmasters have over 100; and some of my Hedge Knights approach 100 as well. Should I dump stats elsewhere once I hit those type of numbers?

    Hohoho~~~~ if you’re asking an offense junkie about optimal melee skill, you must be expecting to hear things like…

    “Put all your soul into melee skill.”

    So I have never tried to gauge or measure the optimal melee skill. If you don’t mind, here is an opinion based on human’s super reliably vague & biased memory, I think 95~100 melee skill hit most enemies in most situation.

    >> Update on Adventurous Nobles with 65+ starting starting Resolve:
    It’s like drawing lottery to get Adventurous Nobles with Fearless trait. Since we have to wait for update, you can try recruiting them once everyday. To be more serious, if you insist to get it within hours, you can keep reloading the game.

    >> By the way, there is way too much starting stat variation/gyration. I’ve seen Hedge Knights with high 60s start Melee Skill; I’ve seen others close to 50. A bit too much, you think?
    I think there is balance/tradeoff between initial stats. But I’m not sure if it’s fair. Still, it doesn’t matter as long as my preferred stats are high.

    in reply to: Defense Skill Tree Discussion #4941

    Sky: Hold Out is useless.
    73: Absolutely disagree.

    Sky was referring to game version v0.4.0.22 in the original post while I was referring to v0.4.0.44. He mentioned this in second line of his first paragraph while I mentioned this in first sentence, because I was reminded by him to mention about game version.

    He has attached an image at the bottom of his original post. The Hold Out he discussed is very different from the current one.

    I can’t say I’m not impressed by his passion and etiquette as gamer and forum member.

    >> Mana’s presentation of the Defense Perk tree is FAR more accurate and illuminating than the OP’s. Also, Mana is far cooler than Sky.
    I’m not sure if your first point is right but I think most people can agree to your second point.


    >> Ok, so maybe I should conservatively assume 100 Melee Defense, not 90 or 92, is safe, albeit tentatively?
    We know our dodge chance against orc youngS. But we can never guess the relationship of accuracy between different enemies, if we have never compared most of them. If orc young appears to be accuracy genius or idiot, your self-satisfying adjusted melee def value would be greatly biased.

    Making the melee def higher is not necessarily the most conservative approach. You might waste melee def if orc young appears to be accuracy genius. If you want to be conservative, 82~83+5 (+5 is to combat increased accuracy due to greatsword and billhook) = 87~88 melee def


    >> That’s just too little. Can’t the nastiest enemies hit for over 200 per hit? Assuming you have fifty or so HPs, I’d imagine you want an armor piece that gives you around 200 or more to avoid getting at least one shotted.
    If you’re talking about orc leader, he doesn’t have chance to attack you because you would keep a cunning distance with him. When he approaches, you will probably slay him with 1 or 1.5 melee brothers. Not sure, I didn’t pay much attention to him. But it definitely won’t take more than 2 melee brothers to kill him in single round.

    The 90+120 armor only meant to tank projectile and 1h attack several times, especially when you don’t want to waste time waiting for safe opportunity to attack. You can avoid all melee attack if you’re patient/defensive (by keeping distance). But I never go for defensive if I fight on plains, or after I’ve made sure there are no hidden enemies.

    ↓ The following opinion might be biased because playing with woven tunic melee is a little uncommon, judging by other’s opinions. So it might only fits similar team setup and play style. ↓
    You rarely take melee hit even if you’re offensive, because your melee brothers can be anti-melee specialist. [Perfect Focus + Battle Flow + Berserk + high max fatigue + 2h weapon] is sooo deadly. It makes me happy when I see a lot of melee enemies, it makes me frown when I see a lot of ranged enemies. Basically my tactic is to kill all ranged enemies as soon as possible, without getting hit/killed by them.

    >> My two captains have 95 and 89 Resolve, respectively. Is that enough? If I started at 65, I may still not have reached 95 for instance, though I likely would’ve reached 89.
    >>So once again: What FINAL number am I aiming for?

    I should have answered your question just now. But for clarification purpose, why not answer once more? You can get 85~105 final resolve if you have 65 initial resolve. The final number you’re aiming for, depends how greedy you are. Weird answer. Now I’m not sure if I’m answering/understanding the question correctly.

    >> And my DPS guys simply had an absurd luck with hits and high damage hits. In fact, even my “tarpit” Riposte bot did a lot of damage.
    If it’s 1000 damage it still can be luck. 4000 damage dealt by a single brother in 6 rounds requires a lot of hits. It is high damage with high precision.

    >> You hit the five percent minimum hit chance v. Orc younglings at Melee Defense 92, but we don’t know what kind of Melee Skill the more skilled AI units possess to make an ironclad conclusion about what Melee Defense we need in general?
    Also, you forget to mention I hit the six percent minimum hit chance v. Orc younglings at Melee Defense 80. Would you spend 12 melee def stats for just 1% extra dodge chance? Yes I don’t know optimal melee def against all enemies, with the suspicion of different enemies have different accuracy.

    Maybe it is not fair for an offense junkie say this, but I optimistically guess it is very hard for most enemies to kill a brother with 80 melee def, especially if he wear some decent armor.


    >> One battle summary screen that shows that one of my “bersekers” did 4000 damage in six rounds (with no one on the team incurring any damage)
    >> I think you misinterpreted me, though the failure lies likely with the writer and not the reader. I think you read me to mean that the rest of my brethren did no damage; but what I meant to say was that none of my brethren took damage.

    What I understood: One of your team members managed to deal 4000 damage within the duration of six rounds, while none of your member has taken any damage in any form.

    That’s why I said one of my brothers has dealt 2550 damage in a battle for his personal record. Did I miss something again? Don’t worry, I can tell your attitude is very friendly (a little too friendly though… it’s suspicious)

    >> Yeah, but what’s the final Resolve number you are trying to reach? It seems to me that’s more important than the starting number, unless you won’t increase it any further at level ups. I am confused.

    Everytime you increase Resolve stat, you get 2~4 resolve. So you get +20~40 resolve from lv1 to lv11.

    Starting number affects final number a lot. Do you think you have good chance to get high final Resolve if you have low initial Resolve?
    Let’s say I have 65 initial resolve and you have 44 initial resolve.
    My min final resolve = 65 + 20 = 85
    Your max final resolve = 44 + 40 = 84

    You can’t win me despite fortune favors you, if I have high starting Resolve.

    >> I did read that post. But I still don’t understand what you are trying to say.

    Well my communication sucks a lot. I will try to rephrase my sentences with my communication ski-
    Arghh…. O|¯|_ nevermind. I’ll try my best.

    I performed an experiment about “chance to get hit with different melee defense”. I gathered 6 Orc Youngs around a brother and jot down the statistics as they try to hit him. Of course I saved the game before I increase his melee defense or run the experiment.

    When my brother has 92 melee defense, orc youngs have about 5% (7 connected hit / 130 attempted hit) chance to hit me.
    When my brother has 80 melee defense, orc youngs have about 6% (12 connected hit / 180 attempted hit) chance to hit me.
    When my brother has 68 melee defense, orc youngs have about 11% (14 connected hit / 126 attempted hit) chance to hit me.

    Special Notes:
    This experiment is not being performed in the most accurate way. Enemy might inflict “Overwhelmed” status on us, just like how we did to them. The overwhelmed status affects chance to hit. To make sure data collected is extremely precise, I should ONLY let one orc young hit me at a time. But that’s too time consuming so I didn’t do it. I simply let 6 orc youngs to attack me at the same time, so the final result might include “overwhelmed” effect.

    Conclusion, the data collected actually represents chance to get hit WHEN BEING SURROUNDED, but doesn’t truly represent chance to get hit. But I expect every player is going to use this information for their tanker, which is meant to be surrounded.

    >> Since minimum chance to hit is five percent, and 92 Melee Defense got you there, you do not need to increase it higher?
    It’s true orc young has about 5% chance to hit you when you have 92 melee def….
    But I haven’t tried 91 melee def!!!! щ(ºДºщ)
    Who knows if 91 doesn’t yield the similar result?
    I’ve only tried 92, 80, 68   O|¯|_
    I know it’s kinda misleading….   O|¯|_
    You might think I’ve tried value between 68~92   O|¯|_
    But if someone have really tried all the value between 68~92, he must be insane insanely enthusiastic!!! щ(ºДºщ)
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    To answer your question, you don’t need higher melee def than 92 when being surrounded by Orc Youngs. But different enemies might have different chance to hit, maybe orc youngs are the ones with very low accuracy? Haha, funny isn’t it. I don’t how accurate is orc young among all enemies. But I think if enemy uses sword type weapon, their chance to hit will increases by 10%, just like us.
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    To answer your purpose behind your question, I don’t know if 92 is optimal/perfect defense stat against multiple Orc Youngs. But if we use simple mathematics which is super unreliable:

    When my brother has 80 melee defense, orc youngs have about 6%
    When my brother has 68 melee defense, orc youngs have about 11%

    (80-68)/(11-6) = 12 melee def gives 5% difference in chance to get hit

    So each melee def reduce chance to get hit by multiple orcs by 0.4%.
    82~83 melee def should give you 95% chance to dodge against multiple orc youngs.

    It seems our chance to hit enemy is determined by simple mathematics too.
    Our melee skill – enemy defense stat – enemy shield defense etc = chance to hit

    This is one reason to justify why we use simple and suspicious mathematics just now. I think my morale is wavering now O|¯|_
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    To further answer your purpose behind your question, this is what I’ve done for my Nimble character.

    In my case, I increase my melee defense to around 30. I’ve taken Nimble so it doubles to 60. I’ve also taken Hold Out, so my melee def will reach about 80 when I gain confident status.

    Now that I’ve think of it… maybe I should increases my melee def slightly higher. You know, enemy has spear that increase accuracy by 20% and sword for 10% extra accuracy. Hah! Just kidding. Sword and spear doesn’t do damage at all. Wait a minute…. Greatsword and billhook increases accuracy by 5% too. These weapons hurt when they hit. Okay, your optimal defense stat should be 82~88, assuming most enemy has more or less same accuracy as orc youngs.

    What do you mean I’m doing estimation based on estimation? I think my morale is breaking now. Everything sounds unreliable O|¯|_ By the way, I think I’ve answered your question as much as possible with the limited data I possessed. If anyone finds a certain type of enemy being extremely accurate and deadly than others, I would like to run the experiment again.
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    let me read some of your replies before I reply again. I’m too ashamed of the long text so I must not join everything together.

    in reply to: Amazing game: Some suggestions for improvement #4914

    >> Well, I guess it makes sense then. I still wish brothers with full helms could at least see 2 squares at night instead of literally only the square next to them, as that completely makes them useless for javelin and pike purposes.
    I’m no optic master but it’s weird if you can’t even see the enemy at distance 2, which is also the attack range of your spear, even it’s at night.

    You know why it’s weird? Because you’re so stupid that you‘re not allowed to won’t take off the helmet! щ(ºДºщ) It really pisses you off when your comrade tells you that you don’t have time for such thing in an intense battle, after seeing him reload the crossbow again and again.

    It could very hard to land a javelin at a specific target in pitch dark forest, without the guidance of moon goddess or torch salamander’s blessing. But it is possibly no one use tor- salamander’s blessing because no one wants to be an obvious and eye catching target.

    To be honest, I’m kinda curious how medieval guys fight a night battle. It’s so dark when there’s no moon, and nobody lit a torch at all? If yes, wouldn’t a moving torch attract all kinds of flying objects?


    I know this game is Early Access to be fully released in about a year’s time. I thought I’m prepared for the wait.

    I had to go through hell to prove I’m not insane
    Had to meet the devil just to know his name

    And that’s when my love was burning
    Yeah, it’s still burning

    I keep going to the river to pray
    ‘Cause I need something that can wash out the pain
    And at most I’m sleeping all these demons away
    But your ghost, the ghost of you
    It keeps me awake

    Each time that I think you’re gone
    I turn around and you’re creeping in
    And I let you under my skin
    Guess I love living in the sin

    Oh you never told me
    True love was gonna hurt

    True pain I don’t deserve
    Truth is that I never learn

    in reply to: Amazing game: Some suggestions for improvement #4908

    >> The vision penalty from helmets is presumably because it obscures your vision. When it’s dark it’s harder to see further – why would those two penalties stack together?
    Eh??? Σ(゜ロ゜;)
    Weird…. I was thinking why wouldn’t these two penalties stack together. Did I miss something?
    Let’s assume full helmet does obscure vision seriously, like what it suggests in game. I thought it would be something like this
    wearing glasses with wrong prescription (-5 vision) + being in dirty water(-5 vision) + at night(-5 vision) ≈ vision penalty 14~16
    The three factors are independent factors thus the final effect should be more or less simple addition?

    Narrow sight of view(full helm) should has nothing to do with brightness/darkness of the environment, right? So can they stack?

    in reply to: Amazing game: Some suggestions for improvement #4905

    >> At night, my characters with full helms literally cannot see anything unless it’s in the square next to them.

    Fact: Wearing sunglasses increases coolness but reduces your vision.

    Quiz: What happens if you wear sunglasses at night?
    A) bsolutely increase your coolness further
    B) est fashion of the year
    C) ooler than you can ever imagine
    D) evil may cry

    It doesn’t make sense if penalty of darkness and full helm can’t stack together. But I wonder if full helm greatly reduce vision in reality. At medieval times, how does a templar chase an underwear thief at night? He can’t be sniffing all the way to justice, right?

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