ManaSeed

[ManaSeed]

>> Melee brothers…. Throwing JAVELINS….
（・□・；）D-did you increase ranged skill for melee brothers?

>> They switch to their weapons when the enemies close to melee range (Quick hands is a great perk), and proceed to fight as per normal.
Quick hands is definitely best tier 1 perk. I doubt someone can argue about that. Once per round, you can suddenly raise shield, switch to range 2 weapon, draw your pre-loaded crossbow, prepare stunning weapon for boss, WITHOUT AP.

>> Every single brother in my company is wearing the toughest armor I can find.
I always wanted to ask this question after seeing so many people allocating heavy armor to their brothers. Do you really need that much armor? Were your armors almost broken at end of battle most of the time?

[ManaSeed]

>> Hah! I’ve run into the same problem when I’ve tried to go test out various builds. If only we had a way to access a console or a testing custom battle set up thing or w/e so that we could create specific battle brothers and test them out.
I have the compulsion to pick up every single loot. When I’m fully loaded, I have the compulsion to sell the loot at relatively high price, even if I have to travel to the furthest town. You might slap me for the next thing I’m going to say, yes I have the compulsion to buy food at almost lowest price. “But this doesn’t even make sense! How much are you going to save from that?”

I’ve racked up 150,000 crowns. After finding absolutely no purpose to have so much crowns, my compulsion for money making is finally cured.

Now I’ve decided to send my kids brothers to college. I hope they can learn something or gain some experience from it.

Aside from the joke, I would trade 15 crowns for 1 exp. 30 crowns is fine too, all I want is to send my brothers to college.

>> At this stage of the game the only threat are those heavy armored orcs.
I’m still finding good way to handle enemy archers that comes in large numbers. At this point I begin to believe my brothers are wearing far less armor than everyone else.

>> Ranged brothers are bad against heavy armored orcs so I would say archers are useless.
Ranged brothers are pretty good against them, but melee brothers are just damn good. Depending on perks you’ve chosen, melee brothers can be anti-melee specialists.

>> Tbh I havent had chance to try out javelins.
I recommend you to compare a crossbow and javelin. Crossbow for accuracy & firepower, while Bow for tactics (1 extra range means everything in battle). I’ve seen people mentioning the advantage of javelin is the ability to wield a shield. But when I look at the amount of Javelin’s ammo again, I bend slowly and cover my face with my palms.

>> And if AI gets better scripts and understands it has advantage at ranged combat they could just take good defensive positions and force you to attack.
I don’t understand about their advantage at ranged combat. Isn’t the side with high grounds will have the ranged advantage? If you’re talking about patience, yes. Enemy can simply fall back to high grounds and wait for me to come. I can do the same but I don’t have eternal life to win the war of patience.

>> I would like to see some skirmish combat front of the lines to really make other party to be forced to attack or retreat. Mb increase the range of bows.
If enemy is too weak, you’ll be “forced” to attack. If enemy is too strong, you’ll be forced to retreat (*´・ｖ・)
Just me though. The range of crossbow and bow is kinda nice.

P.S.
I don’t think it is justifiable, but I want 5 extra ammo in arrow/bolt quivers.

[ManaSeed]

>> Since I don’t need my archers to be in the front row
About at least 1/3? (I dunno the portion) of the time, you don’t start the battle with a lined-up or tidy formation. You might get surrounded and has scattered formation especially if you engage enemy in forest. This depends on your play style, some people always engage enemy on plains. I dislike battle in forest but most enemy bases are in forest.

>> I don’t need Melee Defense and Ranged Defense is not really needed when your archers can win the contest with enemy archer
In my experience, when you get surrounded or pursuing enemy archer with your archer, there is a chance your archer might get shot. In small scale battle, the enemy archer could miss you or you might dispatch him very quickly. But in large scale battle, there is a good chance for enemy archers to hit or wound your unit severely (if he has no ranged def or armor).

>> If he dies I can always hire another one who will be capable of doing this bare minimum.
Wow wow just- wait, you’re actually right but that idea is extremely dangerous. I think most people will try their very best to keep everyone alive. Because if someone dies, all the experience gained will be wasted. Even he’s just a meatshield to you, you would rather him to be a veteran meatshield than just a rookie meatshield forever, right?

>> My point is – if my brother can’t hit the wide side of a barn he’s a meatshield. His only purpose is to occupy enemies while archers do their job.
If 2 meatshields can do 2000+ dmg respectively in 3 rounds (shown in my previously posted image), they must be made of some highly poisonous or corrosive meat. Each meatshield deals 700 dmg in every round (without Rally perk). Don’t even try to calculate, your ranged brother can’t do this at all.

However, melee brother can’t do something like this (this is where I agree with you).

You don’t have to figure out what is happening. I just come up with the perfect name for this image.

“1 second after the game has started.”

That lucky guy, if wasn’t the bush blocking my sight completely, he was dead.

In case you’re wondering, there are only 3 ranged brothers in battle. The two brothers at second row are Rally brothers, I gave them a short bow so they can begin the battle in second row. Also, I’ve only fired the first arrow wave (you can unleash arrow shower twice in a round, if you have Perfect Focus & support of Rally brothers), and look at what has happened to the enemy.

This is what I think.
In small scale battle against light armor enemies, ranged brothers can end the battle faster than melee brothers.
In large scale battle against heavy armor enemies, melee brothers can deliver more damage than ranged brothers.

However, most people pay more attention to tough battles than easy ones, so they might find less value in archers (I would shamefully admit I’m one of these people.

>> They can still be classified as meatshields before they reach the ranks of valuable members of the team. Archers start as near useless to become the most powerful and end up still being useful or very useful.
Slap me- forget it. Slap my friends if I’m wrong. How long have you been playing this game? I think most people won’t say archers are the most powerful role in this game. Well, I also believe most people don’t give a damn to archers. So they might not discover the value hidden within archers.

>> Having 2 archers bring bigger benefits – in my opinion – than not having them.
That’s eternal question I’m working on to find the answer. You saw me started this thread so you should know I’m hesitating to remove archers from my team. You can also probably guess I find something special in archers and that’s why I hesitated.

Though we have different opinions, I think you like archers quite a lot. So this can’t be wrong. You must the person I’m looking for. Welcome~

Incidentally, I’ve recruited a new brother and I intended to train him into a hybrid brother (melee + range skill). But this would take quite a while… 9500 exp…. O|¯|_

[ManaSeed]

How did you find out about that?

[ManaSeed]

>> After that they can switch to billhooks or other distance weapons to help out in melee combat. They are less efficient against armored enemies, but with crossbows they can help out a lot, so they stay relevant even in late game.
Why everyone is suggesting my ranged brothers to use melee weapons? Just what stats have you increased for your archers!? щ(ºДºщ)

Hmmm….
Out of 3 stats growth, range skill and max fatigue is a must, so the remaining stat left for archers is probably a choice between defense (ranged/melee def) and melee skill. Archers are ranged units so they don’t need melee def, but they probably need ranged def as means to fight enemy archers or protect themselves from enemy archers. You can choose melee skill and wear armor instead. I never try the latter style before, I always have a misconception about hybrid brother serves less purpose than melee and ranged brother. I think it’s time I put down my biased views and give hybrid brother a try.
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I assume all ranged brothers are damage dealers. If you have a ranged brother with Rally, you won’t call him archer. I have a brother like this and he never fire an arrow/bolt, and rarely moves at all. All he does is rally.
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>> In short – they range from being the most important members of the group to being useful enough to not consider not having them. Melee brothers range from being near useless meatshields to being valuable members, but not to that extent and they are always taking higher risk when in combat (so you’re much more likely to lose them).
Can you fire arrow without meatshields to protect you!? щ(ºДºщ) (Geez, kids these days just take meatshields for granted)
When enemy comes in front of you, can you still fire arrow or reload? (you will exhaust all pre-loaded crossbows in your belt inventory in a second) For this reason, I think melee brother is actually INEVITABLE member for any team.

Also, I suspect you can win various fights with pure melee team but strongly doubt you can win several fights with pure ranged team.
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To further study relationship between melee and ranged brothers, let’s take a look at their battle results.


The two images above was when I fought some orc youngs, warriors, berserkers (they are 2 different enemy factions, but not two attempts on same enemy group). I didn’t bother to fire an arrow with ranged brother because I know it’s a sure win. The assassins are melee brothers, and those with level up sign are just filler brothers until I’ve decided what to do with them.

The two images above was when I raided bases with 3 bandits leaders (they are 2 different enemy factions, but not two attempts on same enemy group). At this point of time I finally have rally brothers. Rally greatly enhances the potential of my archers, I’ve never face the problem of running out of ammo until I have two Rally brothers. I start the fight being surrounded by enemy archers in circle or pincer. 3 bandit leaders didn’t make me frown a tiny bit, but the enemy archers surrounded me are really disturbing and a real threat. The furies are ranged brothers, they are dealing moderate damage to light armor enemies(bandits), because there are melee brothers who tank for them. Now I’m thinking…… would it be even better if I switch all ranged brothers to melee brothers? Still, I have to try the hybrid brothers first.

P.S.
You can’t mess around when being surrounded by enemy archers, especially if you have 4 filler brothers.
Also, please pardon my seemingly rude attitude despite I’m the one who asks for guidance and discussion m(_ _)m
And I still welcome all input regarding ranged brothers m(_ _)m

On a less relevant note, I found out it is very useful to screenshot your battle results, if you want to perform team analysis. You can gradually fine tune your team, making everyone productive and spread damage taken evenly among brothers.

[ManaSeed]

>> One of them is the commander-rally man with armor penetration-tohit chance from offense, having sidestep to escape enemy zones, vampires do not scare him at all.
What’s “penetration-tohit chance from offense”? I assume it’s a perk from offense category but I can’t tell which. I believe you mean Footwork with “Having sidestep to escape enemy zones”, right? It’s understandable that we don’t remember perk names that well (especially when you’re playing several games with a lot of skill names), so I’m just asking for clarification purpose.

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>> The other one is the high initiative high fatigue no armor glasscannon with focus fire and frenzy.
I assume focus fire is Perfect Focus, so what is frenzy? It can’t be Killing Frenzy since you’ve chosen Perfect Focus. Is it Berserk?

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One vampire is no big threat. But when there are three of them, they can easily insta-kill my tunic archers with no melee defense. Especially in forest with a lot of obstacles, they suddenly appeared by teleportation and group attack my archer. He died in first round without a chance to fight back. I can take special measurements to prevent this, either by equipping some armor or group my brothers together there’s no space for vampire to teleport. But there are no other enemies which can attack my units beyond my expectation like this, so I assume this as a great weakness of my archers.
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>> He is not afraid of anyone either. All who come in close are clubbed to death with focus instantly, be that a mere bandit a werewolf or a vampire.

What is the stats growth prioritization of your archers? Do you increase melee skill? What is your archer’s melee weapon?

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>> so only the real hard enemies are a moderate problem
And the real hard enemies are only a minor problem to melee brothers. So I consider this a factor to keep a melee brother rather than a ranged brother.
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>> They are the bait for ghouls vamps wolves etc. With medium armor and shields.
Melee brothers can be bait too if they have low armor, right? Since a bait’s role is to lure enemy towards him, melee brothers should be a better bait than ranged brothers because the latter have low melee prowess.

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>> When the enemy clusters up is a want to scenario after the one when you have the higher ground. You don’t have to hit, just aim in the middle and some will get it anyway.
I don’t want any enemy to get hit, I want a specific enemy to get hit. Killing enemy one by one will “spread the fear” faster, and it enables you to kill even more enemies. It is more ideal than spreading damage evenly to enemies. This is also a core tactic to turn the tide of battle, I think.
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>> start off in row and explode into movement, intercepting incoming enemies with your line fighters and surround them with archers
I never try to flank enemies with archers. The following are my reasons and imaginary results.

Surrounding enemies with archers from left(up) or right(bottom) actually scatters your formation. This is not efficient for Rally the Troops. Furthermore, your flanking archers are more vulnerable to attacks as they become further away from the center. This is also not efficient for your melee brothers as enemy are more dispersed as a result of distraction caused by your flanking archers.
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>> The role of the archers deminishes with time
Now I’m only discussing this part for pure fun. I actually think the opposite. Archers are horrible at early game as they have amazing low accuracy. There are so many times I want to throw away the arrows and switch the bow with a spear. At later stage, my archers are far more accurate. With the help of Rally, they are quite good against light armor or unarmored enemies.

Here comes the serious part. No matter how much the archers have improved, melee units have always improved more. This makes me question the value of archers. Ranged brothers and melee brothers do perform different functions. HOWEVER! Melee brothers can be close substitute or slightly better substitute to ranged brothers. This is what I suspect or fear.
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I understand your general opinion is same with mine. But we have slightly different experiences regarding archers so I’m extending the discussion and asking questions to clear things up.

P.S.
Almost forgot to mention about Ranged Brother’s bane, Skeleton Archer. How can someone perform ranged attack while being resistant to it? (My rational accepts the logic but my sentiment doesn’t accept it, it’s like a bit like cheating)

Can you imagine what happens if Orc Warrior is resistant to melee attacks? I can already see the frowning face of melee brothers.

[ManaSeed]

>> I might be missing something though. Hit me.
Hey pretty boy…. Wanna go to that dark corner over there and have some “private chat”? Then we can take a look at what you are missing~~~ ♡

…..
………..
FXXX !!! MAN!!! What are you thinking!!??? Are you crazy!!!??? Oh… wait. I think I get what you mean. Please wait while I prepare the setup…

Okay! Done!

(hedge knight strong trait 90 melee skill tunic 150 max fatigue perfect focus = 7 greatsword hits) + (adventurous noble fearless trait 100 resolve rally the troops = 3 greatsword hits) = 10 greatsword hits in a round

Are you sure you want me to hit you?

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Hold Out is the one of the very few defensive perks that is actually handy. In addition, Nimble has effect on the +10 melee defense provided by Hold Out. So if you have both Hold Out & Nimble, your confidence status gives you +20 melee defense.

If you’re going to learn tier 2 or 3 defensive perks, Hold Out is probably a must-learn perk. In terms of survivability, I think it can completely replace Colossus, if you have to choose between one. Ignoring combat penalties when wavering or breaking gives you more chance to survive than having 25% extra hp.

[ManaSeed]

>> My only worry about the commander suggestion is the departure from the all chips in feel of the game. A character that gets special treatment would remove a quality that I think bb has, especially in the early game which is that of mercenaries desperately fighting to make a living and keep each other alive.

Depends on the ability of commander, it might change the game entirely. The skill tree, the formation, everything.

>> If the tactician can die like everybody else, then fantastic.
Even if he can die like everybody else…… everybody will actually die for protecting him when necessary. The weight of lives are not the same. There is a dilemma here. If the commander has far more importance than everyone else, they are just pawns. He would steal all the spotlight. I think I won’t love other brothers anymore, not like how I treat my brothers now. If the commander is only slightly more important than everyone else, there is no good reason to have him on the team.

I prefer a star team, rather than a star player on the team.

Still, commander concept is nice. I would prefer it happen in expansion or DLC, but not under the current settings of BB where we play as a team. There has to be a leader in the team, right? The leader could be a spiritual leader that works as a fence-straddler, not necessary a battlefield leader which issue absolute order. The brothers fight according to agreed plan, and will signal or communicate with other brothers when different situation arises. So we can have Battle Brothers, rather than Battle Commander.

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I find that character customization is not enough. You can’t tell the difference between archer A , B, C or remember them as separate individual (even if they have different traits and slightly different stats). Hereby I suggest “Brotherhood Traits”. These traits are absolutely unique as they cannot be shared by two brothers (unlike common traits, Brave, Optimist etc), and they have noticeable impact in battle. Each brother can only have one Brotherhood Trait, it is first acquired at lv 4 and can be replaced at lv 7 & 10.

Here are some examples of Brotherhood Traits:

Rivalship ==> Increases your damage & chance to hit by 15% when an ally next to you has defeated an enemy.

Now or Never ==> Triggers when an enemy has 50% or more chance to kill an ally with broken armor. Increases your damage, chance to hit and fatigue cost to 200% (fatigue can go beyond zero and becomes negative) against that enemy. The target must have sufficient remaining AP to perform the killing blow in the same round. Also, you’re not allowed to take any action (other than attacking the target) in order to trigger this effect. “Everything happens so fast, all you know is your precious person is going to vanish in the next second…”

Teamwork ==> increases chance to hit by 50% when an ally is in the opposite direction next to an enemy in front of you. Also, increases that ally’s chance to hit against the target by 50%.

Lone Wolf ==> the user is a very very shy brother. He lacks the courage and ability for communication and interaction, as much as he desires to be acknowledged by other brothers. Increases all stats by 2% per tile away from the nearest brother, up to a maximum of 30%.

Caretaker ==> Once per round, when an ally leaves a tile which is both enemy and your ZoC(Zone of Control) tile, you have a chance to intercept enemy ZoC attack. Your intercept chance equals to your ZoC’s chance to hit. If successful, your ally can leave safely. If failed, your ally will try to dodge as usual. You must have equipped melee weapon with range 2 to activate this effect.

Trust ==> when a brother performs ranged attack on enemy next to you, increases his chance to hit by 20%. Even a gold medalist archer would hit the target slightly off if you put a very expensive vase next to the target. But if you put someone who believes and acknowledges your skills next to the target, you can fire with full confidence without anxiety. Please don’t bash me on this one, this psychology theory works like a charm in movies and games.

[ManaSeed]

Alright, keep quiet gaiz. Now let’s give a round of applause to our Star of Defense Perks, F-F-FOOTWORK!!

Footwork ==> uses 4 AP and builds 25 fatigue, allows your character to ignore Zone of Control until his turn in next round. Awesome, isn’t it?

Okay, I made up that skill description. While in reality it merely allows your character to take ONE STEP away from ZoC with 4 AP and 25 fatigue. Dear GOD…. I just can’t make good use of this perk…. O|¯|_

EDIT
Ops…. I made a mistake. This isn’t a defense perk….

[ManaSeed]

EDIT
The forum doesn’t allow me to edit my previous post ヽ(´□｀。)ﾉ This is trivial but you can put a kite shield in your belt inventory, in case you’re rushing towards unguarded enemy archers. (Since you have Quick Hands, switching item should be no problem). Almost forgot to mention, yeah you can put a billhook in belt inventory for extra(minor) advantage.

[ManaSeed]

I started out with 3 people, looking forward to everything excitedly. Loitering around some peaceful towns, and decided to take some messenger/caravan quests. I found out the pay is incredibly low, so I began to hate the devs. Then I realized what happened and began to pity the devs, they must have an incredibly hard life before this. I completed quite a number of errand boy brother missions. Everything is so peaceful and serene, just nice- wait a minute. Why are there no enemies at all?

I created a new world and start the game again. This time, enemies are everywhere. Even the shortest route for errand brother quest is guarded by multiple badass bandit groups. There is absolutely no way to complete even the meager pay missions. In addition, the quest dealer always propose raid quests with 4800, 3000 rewards. Do I look like I can take on these quest with just 3 people? Are you stupid?

Since the quests are unreasonable, I started to prey on enemies by luring them to guard towers and defeat them together with guards. After the first time I sold equipments found, I decided to never take on quests anymore. I’ve been reluctant to recruit new member as I want to try things out with just 3 members. Later, I realize this is not viable as enemies are far too strong for me to mess around with. This is the prequel before my brothers rise.

However, today I only wish to post about a new role I’ve discovered recently.
====================================================================

I call this role “Half tank”. You require a brother with Swordmaster background.

Half tank ==> you can use other weapons for offensive purpose, but you’re advised to use Noble Sword for Riposte to maximize and utilize the defensive functions of this role. Especially good against light armored enemies.

Half tank + Indomitable = role “Guardian” ==> choose Fortified Mind to cope Ghost’s mental attacks, Anticipation to cope archers, or Rotation to keep your allies alive. This role is excepted lure/group enemy and hold them for very long time. Indomitable is essential to avoid getting knocked back (stunned) by shields (orcs). Despite Indomitable’s skill description says you’re no longer able to dodge, you still can dodge like normal.

Half tank + Rally the troops = role “Paladin” ==> you can choose any tier 2 utility perk as they are quite useful for different styles. This role provides better offensive functions than Guardian. Also, Indomitable is only useful if you’re going to lure & tank all enemies by yourself, which is less practical as you always fight with other brothers with a battle line.

1 brother against 13 orc youngs and 1 orc berserker. Despite the name says “Paladin”, he is actually Guardian.

You can switch between basic mail shirt and mail shirt.

Stats growth priority
　　　　Melee skill ==> increase this stat almost every level
　　　　Melee defense ==> increase this stat moderately (will be explained at below)
　　　　Max fatigue ==> increase this stat almost every level
　　　　Ranged defense ==> increase this stat moderately (will be explained at below)
　　　　Resolve ==> depends, but I doubt you have spare stats points for this

When melee def is 92, orc youngs have about 5% (7/130) chance to hit me.
When melee def is 80, orc youngs have about 6% (12/180) chance to hit me.
When melee def is 68, orc youngs have about 11% (14/126) chance to hit me.

The experiment above is performed when 6 orc youngs have surrounded me. *Result might not be extremely precise because I didn’t separate the overwhelming effect which enemies inflicted on me, but the result should be practically precise/useful as enemy will overwhelm me in combat. As a reminder, I think different enemies might have different chance to hit.

In my case, I increase my melee defense to around 60 (30 multiplied by 2 due to Nimble), and the Hold Out perk will further increase it by 20 (so I have about 80 melee def in total). Then I spent my spare stats point on ranged def. You can increase Resolve for your Paladin if you think he is good enough to survive in various situations.

I might post other roles of my main force later. I never go for defensive style, so this is probably my first and last role with defensive functions.

[ManaSeed]

I don’t know if you’re someone really knowledgeable or what…. but I would bet 5 cents to say it is chickenface helmet.

[ManaSeed]

While we’re at it, I think I should mention something which has been bugging me after I tried the Nimble perk. Alright, quiz time.

Which of the following is more agile and has better chance to dodge an attack? (dodging, not surviving)
A) a brother wearing heaviest armor without equipping shield
B) a naked brother with a shield

Tips:
　　　　　　Don’t block, evade!
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　- Nimble

[ManaSeed]

Let’s take a look at the relationship between melee skill and melee defense.

Brother A: I know how to attack so I know where you’re going to attack. Try me.
Brother B: ….. man, I don’t like violence at all. Can we hit the arcade center instead?
Brother A: I said do it! You’re only good at guarding so your sissy attack won’t hurt me!

*sound effect of fountain*

Brother A: W-Why aren’t you using your usual move!?
Brother B: Sorry bro. I know where should a person guards, so I decided to attack another place. I’m really sorry! I got hotheaded when you mentioned sissy…

There can be connection between these two stats, depends how you look at it. But it’s likely most players are not going to expect that their melee skill play a part in melee defense too. If the players felt they’re forced to raise both melee and melee defense stat together, they might ask to merge these stats together.

Since empty tiles facilitate a Nimble user to dodge an attack, he must be tiling his body or stretching his torso out of the current tile. Would that trigger ZoC (Zone of Control)?

To be precise, would that trigger ZoC when you’re facing two enemies? One enemy attacks you, while another strike you the moment you leave the current tile partially. An enemy can attack you with ZoC 4 times in a round, he’s definitely fast enough to do that.

O|¯|_ Sheet, I actually like every part of the first post, including the tone. And surround factor has crossed my mind too. How come I end up as bad guy here?

[ManaSeed]

I’m interested in all the weapon names you mentioned.

Still, every weapon more or less follows real weapons but they have to serve slightly/rather different function…… I can imagine the fear of BB’s current weapon designer is facing.

“What if most of my designed weapons just became fillers?”

“Could I really design tons of weapons where most of them are not perfect substitute to another?”

“While other realistic medieval games have failed in this matter….. why it has to be me? I just wanna design female brothers… damn!”

Well, almost everything I wanted to know about new weapon was answered. I shall sit back and look forward to my new shiny weapons.

On an irrelevant note, hey gaiz it’s quite a while since the last patch, right? No I’m not excited at all. (❁´◡`❁)

[Author]

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