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PsenBattle wrote:

Hi Trig,
all these Banners were created using our future banner customization tool wich players will be using when starting a new game.
They consist of the following parts:
Banner shape, Base color, Pattern Color, Main emblem, secondary emblem.
All Emblems have to be combinable with all banner shapes and with all color patterns, otherwise a lot of work will go to waste when painting special emblems which work only in combination with certain color patterns.
Of course these banners dont look as intriguing and as authentic as if i had painted them by hand.
When I start working on the final Banner generator I’ll consider your points and maybe change some of the set up to allow for more authentic combinations.
Cheers!

Sounds good. :)
With the elements you listed “Banner shape, Base color, Pattern Color, Main emblem, secondary emblem” authenticity should be achievable.

I would suggest you just adapt these elements to the heraldic rules.

1. Banner shape, ok, this is a banner, it can be any shape really…

2. Base colour, or “Tincture”:

3. Pattern colour. This is where I have a problem. Secondary choice should be “Partition” not “Pattern”!

4. Main emblem, secondary emblem, or “Charge”. This is where you could introduce “Patterns” alongside “Charges” instead of a “secondary emblem”; which is not really a heraldic device. One could chose either a “Charge” or a “Pattern” but not both.

If, for instance one wants an orc’s head as the “Charge” for his coat of arms, he could have it on a single “Tincture” or on “Partitions”, but not on a “Pattern”. So, for instance, a green orc head on a yellow background. Or a green orc head on a quarterly yellow and red background would work. But a green orc head on a yellow and red bendy sinister wouldn’t. It’s either a “Charge” or a “Pattern”, but not both.

What you could do instead of “Primary” and “Secondary” emblem is split the “Charge” in half and then allow picking the colour for each, to enable a two colour “Charge”, but this would probably be too complicated to implement right…

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These ones in particular seem odd.

First two practically the same, but the motto banner on first (and the one with the scythe), why a motto banner without a motto? Particularly since the motto banner is really a late medieval thing…

Why a muslim crescent in Europe? The European crescent would look like this:

Also, the lines are patterns and I think it a bit strange to have the charge over the pattern. If the banner was partitioned, and one partition would have the pattern the other the charge, it would make more sense. The colour combination blue, black, white is otherwise my favourite so I actually use this shield just for it, but heraldically it makes no sense.

A crown was a simbol of royalty (usually yellow on coats of arms). Would a king not chop of a mercenary leader’s head if he dared to present himself with a “royal” symbol? And this one also is the charge over the pattern…

The last two are just odd colour combinations, although from a personal perspective I like the idea of both. But the sword one again, charge over pattern, which is unusual, so would be better to split the shield in half, with one half having the stripes, the other half the sword, while the last one the green stripe rather breaks it. A plain golden purse on a red or black background would be better.

GOD wrote:

It’s important to note that the kind of codified heraldry being talked about here only started to take shape near the tail end of the period that you are dealing with – that is 1100 and upwards, so not early medieval. Some of the ideas that were to result in heraldry taking shape were most likely already around before that, considering the history of war banners, but the rules mentioned above didn’t exist yet.
I also agree with how a newly formed mercenary group would not necessarily care about heraldic rules, even if they knew them. They could also be using a banner with local importance or a traditional symbol of strength. Adding some wouldn’t hurt though for the purpose of playing someone who does care and there are some really nice heraldic banners to be found. However, it’s not an absolute necessity in order to make your mercenaries come across as believable.

This game has the warhammer (bec de corbin) and the billhook, the kite shield and some high medieval helmets, so it’s not early only. Therefore it must span 900-1200, possibly 1300 even. By 1100 the heraldry was pretty codified according to the basic rules, although the device itself, the charge,t he symbol, was left to the discretion of the noble to chose. Check Norman coats of arms from William the Conqueror’s times… I am not against using outrageous devices, severed orc heads, skeleton necromancer birds, werewolf claws, whatever, but the positioning and colour combinations should have some basic heraldic sense is all.

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John Hawkwood is as famous a mercenary boss as they come and his coat of arms is according to all regulations:

Federico da Montefeltro, a famous condottiere, same:

Black Army of Hungary, a known mercenary army, also according to the rules:

So yea. They also didn’t slap a random white skull on a blue and green striped background, just cause it seemed badass, but adhered to certain standards. I mean even the good ol’ pirate jolly roger is, after all, pretty much according to heraldic concepts, a white (metal) skull on a black (colour)background :)

Basic colours, basic partitions, basic patterns, even charges (main symbols) as diverse as they were, from fists to unicorns, swords to dragons, had certain rules of facing, positioning, etc.

Even medieval peasant uprisings saw the peasants adapt symbols, such as “Christ the just ruler” or certain patron saints, on their flags, but again, the colour of the flag and the charge (in that case the saint) were properly set.

In your current set, most are fine. But some are just really off, according to basic heraldry rules of how to combine colours (usually avoid colour on colour, or metal on metal), or positioning of the charge, or charge combinations. Even if you consider going “with the most “awesome” design they can come up with” it can still follow some of these very basic heraldry rules such as how to combine colours and where and how to place the charge.

It’s not a massive issue, nor one that would require you to rework a ton of things, but if you’re already at it, why not do it right?
I rather liked how (the otherwise relativelay lame game) Stronghold Kindoms allowed the player to play around with setting up their coat of arms with a bunch of heraldically correct elements.

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All for many coloured (ad multicoloured) helmets here. They’ll make a nice additional variation to gear.

For the shields/flags/tabards however, I’d hope for more historical heraldry approaches. You couldn’t just randomly slap a motif on some random colours, but would have to follow some pretty defined rules of colours, patterns, shapes, etc. Most games tend to ignore this aspect, so I’d hope the heavily-influenced-by-history Battle Brothers would pay more attention to this detail as currently there are some real eye-sores for a history buff in there.

http://www.classic-castle.com/howto/articles/Heraldry/BasicHeraldry.html

http://rameset.com/heraldry.htm

http://freepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wakefield/heraldry.html

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In the pre-release screenshots and in the battle demo, there are all kinds of colourful helmets, but in the actual game, I’ve never seen any or a full helm yet. Were they not implemented?

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How in the hell did you get “retired soldier, militiamen and caravan guard” as your starting roll? You must be a haxxzor! :D

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I am on the side of those that would like to see a chargen as well.

We already have one, it’s called restarting the game until you get the mix you like. And scum like myself will use it until getting a starting setup that is within the limits of acceptability. After all it’s my playthrough, I should be free to choose who I want in my band and who I don’t. So why not just save us some time, launching and quitting, by putting in some randomizer, selector, chargen type thing already in the new game setup?

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Dyderich wrote:

Easy enough to criticize but I know how to play melee type games and use environment as well….

Easy enough to call a game pathetic and garbage, but then you can’t put together a “Thank you!” when someone kindly offers you some tips.

Either you’re very very unlucky or just really terrible at playing. Check any Let’s Play video on YouTube and you’ll see several people making it throught he first few days step-by-step. I even gave you a link where a dev wins the first battle stark naked. And all you can do is call everyone who is better than you, and that seems to pretty much include everyone who’s ever played this game “manipulating or getting your games very easy”.

Is being rude to everyone and finding excuses your general approach to life’s obstacles?

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Copy it to a txt file.

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Should say “breathe”

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Some more suggestions:

1.

Don’t know how enemy camp spawning functions currently, but it seems once they infest an area, they’re very hard to get rid of.
I’ve been in a war with bandits recently, A village was surrounded with some 5 or 6 “Deadly” or “Invincible” bandit camps, 4 or 5 scout parties always buzzing around the village. I am now so strong the scouts run away from me and when I approach the camp they release 1 or 2 “Strong” parties to come and meet me. I dispatch them, then the camp itself, making sure I stab the camp boss with scramasaxses, to get some nice armour.

However, all the cleaning I am doing doesn’t seem to help the village much, because I still have to go there and back to sell loot and buy tools to mend my equipment and after the village too quickly runs out of tools I have to travel further to buy more and by the time I come back the bandit infestation is again in full swing and no caravans get through to the village, because they’re so weak even a scout party wipes them out.

So, how about a simple mechanic, that each enemycamp only fights for themselves? Rival orc clans would fight each other, rival necromancers would fight each other too, and rival bandits would definitely have turf gang wars, as they do, heck even wolf packs have territorial wars, so werewolves would as well…

This way, you’d not get two “Strong” orc raiding parties assault a village at once (which is nearly impossible to beat) and enemies would keep themselves in check a bit, so rival gangs would not cooperate in ambushes and raids. First they have to win their own turf war, then take care of own business.

2.

Caravans should have more and better guards and the donkey should be harder to kill. I’ve never yet been able to save a caravan when it is attacked, because I always spawn far away from it and they’re all dead by the time I get there.

Also, enemy scouts (puny and weak) shouldn’t be able to defeat a caravan. If it is the only lifeblood of a village, it would not be travelling with only two noobs armed with pocket knives, but with proper escort. Scouts should scout it out, and an ambushing party at least “Average” in strength should be sent to intercept it. If you manage to take out the scouts, the enemy doesn’t learn of the caravan and doesn’t sent the ambushers. I think that should be the point of scouting and anti-scout patrols.

Enemy camps also shouldn’t spawn nearer than 6 hexes from any road or village, so that they can’t see the caravan directly from the camp (as then, security forces would also see the camp from the road and organise a raid against it). I’ve often seen camps just 2 or 3 hexes from the road, wiping out anything that came by.

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Dyderich wrote:

Ok I have no clue what you folks are doing and how you are bypassing the game mechanics because after playing this pathetic game now for the last 6 hours

I’d say pathetic playing skill shouldn’t be confused with the game itself being pathetic. :)
The game mechanics are very transparent and straight-forward.

Game start can be hard if you were really unlucky with initial guys, but not too hard. If you saw the dev’s Naked Challenge, then you see the first bandit battle can be done naked even, with some skill and some luck. In my 40 hours of gameplay I have really just been playing 2 games. I reroll (restart) the game a couple of times to get the three initial guys that I like (more for looks than for gear), then play the campaign for as long as it goes. First one I lost a month in because of lost saves due to an update, the second one now some two months in is still going strong.

1. Equip your fighters sensibly. Know which one will perform which function.
2. Try to get onto high ground when you defend and employ shieldwall and spearwall functions.
3. Calculate the enemy’s moves when you attack. After they move more than 2 hexes, they usually can’t hit anymore. Intercept them there and you’ll get first strike.
4. Gang up on enemies, try to take one out and all of them will lose morale, which makes them clumsier in their turn.
5. If you feel too weak to face an enemy, get them to follow you and run to the nearest town/castle and the militia or soldiers will help you in battle. If an allied soldier falls, stand over them and pick up their weapon/shield, this way you get to keep it after battle (got some nice kite shields this way in my early game).
6. Know when to be cautious and when to be agressive. That’s what makes a good tactician.

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I agree. Land economy and item availability needs a bit of love.

A bit over a month in, I’ve been winning battles left and right. Wondering off the main roads and destroying any lairs I can find. I have 15.000 crowns in my coffers, but the economy of the land is still completely wrecked. Is it run by EU/US cleptocrats I wonder? Castles and towns sell nothing of any use. Tools cost up to 260 to buy and I can never have enough those since weapon and armour costs so much to repair (that 22 orc encounter broke 5 spears, 1 twohander, 1 arming sword, destroyed 2 helmets and wrecked all armours). I cannot buy any good armour, rare weapons, never even saw any advanced armours/helmets in any shop. For a while I could not use archers because no arrows were for sale in any shop in 4 towns in that area.

On the other hand, I never had to buy food or medicine, I am able plunder enough from my enemies that I am now carrying around 1500 units of food and some 300 medicine.

I’ve noticed, caravans arriving to towns don’t add anything to shops. Perhaps they should always have some specific set of things, like several armours, weapons, support items that automatically appear in shops each time a caravan arrives. Additionally, perhaps apart form regular caravans you could have travelling merchants traverse the roads and you could buy stuff off them too.

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Things I’d appreciate:
– Robber barons. Not just bandits as human bad guys, but also better equipped robber barons with their knights.
– More area specific enemies, right now I’ve got Orcs pillaging north and south, hard to rush accross the map to support both fronts. Would like it more if each area had its own invaders.
– More ethnic variety in battle brother names, not only Germans, but also French, Flemish, English, Celtic, Slavic, etc all that was present in medieval Europe.
– More variety in weaponry, even more variations of same weapon (bilhook/glaive/voulge/halberd), more shields, more armour types or just visuals of same sort of armour, more types of arrows (cutting, piercing), throwing axes.
– Ability to spend money to boost village defence. Like if you can hire a battle brother for 100, you could also spend 1000 to equip 10 vilage millitias, or 2000 to make them 10 well equipped and experienced militias. You can’t be at all parts of the map at once, but you could strategically place militias to keep enemies in check.
– Building quick barricades. A few sherpened stakes in the ground by each battle brother could block one direction of attack towards him (out of 6), several of them could build a bit of a barrier to channel enemies into a “kill zone”. The barrier could also be destroyable.
– A kill counter for each brother. How many and what type of units has he killed since in your company.
– Selecting a brother to represent your company on the worldmap icon.
– Ability to pay or convince AI controlled group to go on a mission with you, such as castle patrols going to help you clear out a particularly difficult lair.
– Ability to issue some general orders to AI controlled allies. Can be limited to “Hold position” and “Chaaaaaarge!”, but it’s well annoying that eager underdressed militia keep charging ahead at a mass of orcs when you’re trying to hold a stable line…
– More interaction in towns. Designate one building on pic as “Tavern” where one can gather rumours about locations, so not all have to be found by physically getting close which takes tons of wasted time, while meanwhile villages are getting raided.

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Holy.Death wrote:

On what difficulty you play? Does it even matter?

Difficulty only influences money, not AI skill and enemy toughness.
I play on normal.

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